Seller Responsibility

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WickedAngel

2[H]4U
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I am in a bit of a predicament here and I was wondering what the [H]'s take on the subject would be.

I've been selling/trading items for around five years online now and this is the first issue I've ever had.

I sold an Athlon 64 3200+ to a member here. Insurance was available but not asked for. I placed the CPU in the small CPU case they come with (Plastic) and wrapped that in bubblewrap. It was secure as could be.

He says he received the CPU and it wasn't even in the bubblewrap, let alone the plastic tray. Some of the pins are bent, but not broken. I told him how to fix it (It's quite simple to fix them, actually, as long as none are broken).

He's asking for a refund. I don't believe I'm responsible for this, but I figured I would ask. The CPU I sent was flawless and packaged as well as it could have been packaged. Is it my responsibility to guarantee safe delivery?
 
In my opinion I would say no, if he denied insurance.

If he DID pay for insurance, and it came broken, it would be completely your responsibilty. It's hard to say who is at fault in this situation, I now always include insurance on anything expensive even if they dont want it.

I know I had a similar predicament, paypal said I was at fault and had me completely refund them.
 
WickedAngel said:
I am in a bit of a predicament here and I was wondering what the [H]'s take on the subject would be.

I've been selling/trading items for around five years online now and this is the first issue I've ever had.

I sold an Athlon 64 3200+ to a member here. Insurance was available but not asked for. I placed the CPU in the small CPU case they come with (Plastic) and wrapped that in bubblewrap. It was secure as could be.

He says he received the CPU and it wasn't even in the bubblewrap, let alone the plastic tray. Some of the pins are bent, but not broken. I told him how to fix it (It's quite simple to fix them, actually, as long as none are broken).

He's asking for a refund. I don't believe I'm responsible for this, but I figured I would ask. The CPU I sent was flawless and packaged as well as it could have been packaged. Is it my responsibility to guarantee safe delivery?
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He did not take the insurance so now he is out the cash. You do not owe him anything.
 
This just doesn't sound right.... If a 64 chip was put into the factory plastic tray, which locks, and it was wrapped in bubblewrap with the ends taped (packing, not scotch tape) so it couldn't slide out either side and in an appropriately sized package/box, I don't see it possible for even UPS to deliver it in the condition it was said to be in on arrival. I know how I pack my items and if I was in your situation (gawd forbid) I would defend my position very strongly up to and possibly including calling the recipient an outright liar. Things do happen like THIS in shipping, but you appear to have done the right things on your end. Something's fishy.
 
Did he pay for shipping as in $your price + shipping, or was it Your price shipped?

If it was your price plus shipping then you are not required to refund anything as he should have payed for and made sure it was going to be shipped with insurance.

Now if you did your price shipped then you should have had insurance cost included with the shipping cost unless you stated otherwise and it would be your falt.
 
If it was shipped as you described, then nothing should've happened to the chip. I'm sure you purchased tracking on the chip. How long after the delivery of the item did the buyer tell you that it was damaged?
 
I know alot of people would call it fishy, but honestly I can believe a CPU got damaged in well packing.. My 2500+ XP-M was, and it was packed quite well.. It died so young..


But I think what I last said best covers it.
 
I've taken one more step and offered to take the chip back and straighten the pins myself (It's happened to me before). I'm not sure if I should take this step or not.

I've got a good reputation and I really don't want it tainted, but I'm not going to accept responsibility for something that isn't my fault.

I don't have the serial number of the chip.

He told me that it was damaged the same day that he received it. I don't believe he is lying, but I don't feel like it's my responsibility anymore.

The price was "shipped", but I outline in my thread that insurance is an option that is extra. I have a PM from him saying that it wasn't my fault, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

Bent pins aren't unfixable. My 2600+ Barton came like that and I fixed it with a straight razor and a lot of patience.
 
does he know about this thread? Maybe it can be resolved with more input from the other side. I know when I had a problem with a seller in EBAY, paypal got involved. And although it took 6 months for my to get my money back, they thoroughly investigated both sides.

If I were to sway either way now, it'd be in your favor. But that's with one side. Can you link us to the thread so we can see your description? I dont want to research it, post it and get you mad--thats why I ask.
 
WickedAngel said:
I've taken one more step and offered to take the chip back and straighten the pins myself (It's happened to me before). I'm not sure if I should take this step or not.

I've got a good reputation and I really don't want it tainted, but I'm not going to accept responsibility for something that isn't my fault.

I don't have the serial number of the chip.

He told me that it was damaged the same day that he received it. I don't believe he is lying, but I don't feel like it's my responsibility anymore.

The price was "shipped", but I outline in my thread that insurance is an option that is extra. I have a PM from him saying that it wasn't my fault, but I'm not sure where to go from there.

Bent pins aren't unfixable. My 2600+ Barton came like that and I fixed it with a straight razor and a lot of patience.
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Then you aren't at fault really.
 
"The price was "shipped", but I outline in my thread that insurance is an option that is extra. I have a PM from him saying that it wasn't my fault, but I'm not sure where to go from there."

You offered insurance and it wasnt taken, Its not your fault, yea it sucks that it happend but insurance should have been taken when offered becuz things like this do happen
 
I was just about to post saying how well you packaged. I am running on my ram that you sold me right now. Just got it on Saturday.

Seems odd that it came out of the plastic holder and the bubble wrap.

:confused:
 
WickedAngel said:
http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?p=1028006962#post1028006962

This is the thread.

Everyone who I have sold to in that thread has been satisfied with their purchase. Tiny (Sold him some RAM) and okashira (Sold him a 6800GT) can likely verify that I am no slouch when it comes to packaging.
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I am the one who got the cpu with bent pins. I am not trying to start anything with WickedAngel that's for sure he sent it like he said but it came damaged. There was no insurance on it but that was my fault for not requesting it. I am no good at fixing these kinda things(bent pins) he has experience with it so I asked if he could help me out. He is going to try to get the pins straight for me so at least the can be useable. I will be more than happy to trade with him again and I know accidents happen. Anymore input is greatly appreciated.
 
Tiny said:
I was just about to post saying how well you packaged. I am running on my ram that you sold me right now. Just got it on Saturday.

Seems odd that it came out of the plastic holder and the bubble wrap.

:confused:
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Yeah when I opened the box the cpu was out of the plastic holder and bubble wrap. They(USPS) must have really forgot how to read cause the box said Fragile in plain English.I guess insurance on everything will now have to be used if shipped with Post Office.
 
Writing fragile on the box means nothing. Every item should be packaged like you are expecting it to survive a nuclear explosion.
 
Unfortunately, with most Postal employees...they read 'FRAGILE' as "DROP KICK TO MAIL BOX". They may have learned it from UPS.
 
BigBadBiologist said:
Writing fragile on the box means nothing. Every item should be packaged like you are expecting it to survive a nuclear explosion.
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LOL! yeah the box must have been shaken hard repeatedly in order for the cpu to come out of the plastic holder and bubble wrap. Man I am upset at the Post Office all the stuff I send or receive has been in excellent condition except for this. WickedAngel is a good trader and I agree he shouldn't have to do this for me but I would do the same for him. he is a great guy for doing this for me and will trade with him again.
 
USPS and UPS have become increasingly unreliable over the years. They're good most of the time, but when they're bad they're really bad.

I would ship FedEx if I could but there isn't a local shipping center around here.
 
Toonage said:
This just doesn't sound right.... If a 64 chip was put into the factory plastic tray, which locks, and it was wrapped in bubblewrap with the ends taped (packing, not scotch tape) so it couldn't slide out either side and in an appropriately sized package/box, I don't see it possible for even UPS to deliver it in the condition it was said to be in ... Something's fishy.
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This is a pretty good point. If you put the cpu in a clamshell and wrap the pastic up in bubble, then (even if you don't "PowerTape" the ends) it's hard to see how real damage is gonna come to it. I just can't see how it would happen unless it was "mortally squished" by, like, a humvee.

And, it's not at all easy to straighten pins if they've been "layed down" If the shipping description is accurate, and it arrived undamaged, isn't the most likely source of damage something at the point of opening?

I know I've bent pins that way. A couple times, I think. Plastic wouldn't give and things bounced around. Nothing that couldn't be straightened with a biz card, sewing pin or credit card. But this damage is tough to figure, from the descriptions...

Things that make you go hmmm...
 
I like DHL for larger things. I sent a 17in. LCD thru them ground service and it took only one day to get to its destination, which it should of taken at most 3 days by ground. It got there without a scratch.I use USPS for little things since our Post Office is basically around the corner from me.I will from now on request insurance on everything I ship or receive.
 
ickywu said:
This is a pretty good point. If you put the cpu in a clamshell and wrap the pastic up in bubble, then (even if you don't "PowerTape" the ends) it's hard to see how real damage is gonna come to it. I just can't see how it would happen unless it was "mortally squished" by, like, a humvee.

And, it's not at all easy to straighten pins if they've been "layed down" If the shipping description is accurate, and it arrived undamaged, isn't the most likely source of damage something at the point of opening?

I know I've bent pins that way. A couple times, I think. Plastic wouldn't give and things bounced around. Nothing that couldn't be straightened with a biz card, sewing pin or credit card. But this damage is tough to figure, from the descriptions...

Things that make you go hmmm...
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Just the pins on the edge were bent none in the middle that I could see. Really strange that's for sure.
 
WickedAngel said:
USPS and UPS have become increasingly unreliable over the years. They're good most of the time, but when they're bad they're really bad.

I would ship FedEx if I could but there isn't a local shipping center around here.
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I've had a mobo and proc shipped via fedex to me, and the package got to me soak and wet. Good thing the products survived, though.
 
here is my opinion

It is the sellers resposibility to get the item there in working condition
No matter what

insurance should not be an option that the buyer needs to ask for

IT should ALWAYS be included

i always insure everthing no matter what it is
[i insured 3 5 1/4in faceplates for an Antec Case]
that way when something like this happens
it gets replaced/compensated

see my sig for my heat
150+ deals no probs at all............. NONE


that said

The seller has to make it right
its his problem
he should refund the buyer and take the proc back and take it up with the PO
 
I would say that even though it was uninsured, you still owe the buyer anti-DOA for an item of this nature. If it arrived damaged the packing wasn't good enough (unless it was obvious that the box was crushed by USPS or something like that). It must be packed to survive any amount of shaking or bouncing around. It depends in detail how it was packaged. Those plastic things open very easily so I always tape them down and then put it in bubble wrap and tape that too. Also, I assume there was foam inside the plastic case, because if there wasn't the chip could freely bounce around inside it.

To me it's about 50/50 as the seller should guarantee against DOA no matter what (if there's no obvious shipping damage on the box), but the buyer should always make sure they are getting insurance. Thus if CPU turns out to be dead, he should get a 50% refund on it.

In the future just insure everything, I don't know about down there but up in Canada we only have to pay about a dollar for every extra $150 insurance, so just add a few bucks to your "shipped" cost to include insurance on every item over $40.
 
Kickus_assius said:
but the buyer should always make sure they are getting insurance. Thus if CPU turns out to be dead, he should get a 50% refund on it.
.
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i dont agree
in all my sales NO ONE has ever asked me for insurance
i just do it
for example
what if you bought something from newegg?
and it arrives broken/non-working ect.?

you send it back rite?
why?
because they sold it to you and its up to them to make sure it works when you get it
and for a reasonable length of time

now i know some will say im not new egg and they can afford the extra for insurance
they dont pay it out of pocket
thats for sure
you do
its included in the price


so all sellers should get insurance

NO MATTER WHAT

its your responsibility

i see many traders here that made my DNT list for thier comments
the buyer is not responible

how did he pay?
i would file a paypal claim
also mail fraud
and the states Attorney Generals office
if the seller does not refund his money
 
It's absurd to expect sellers to offer insurance as a standard. If it was expected then the USPS wouldn't have it as an option. It's equally ridiculous to expect them to refund money based on what a shipping company does. I'm not a retailer. I don't make millions of dollars, so I don't have the luxury of offering complete 100% customer satisfaction. I've gone above and beyond to help this seller in giving him the option to send it back and let me go through the hassle of repairing it for him. I didn't even have to do that. It would've been far easier to say "Sorry, but you're shit out of luck", show my shipping slip to Paypal, and be on my way.

Everything I sold in that thread came from the same rig. All the other buyers say their items arrived well-packaged and in perfect working condition.

Furthermore, you're calling me a fraud and you should be removed from this discussion. My reputation speaks for itself. I sent a perfectly working CPU in bubble-wrap and a plastic case.

As for filing claims with Paypal and the USPS...ridiculous. You obviously don't know what those venues are intended for.

Mail Fraud is the oldest form of fraud statutorily regulated and prosecuted by the federal government. Like other forms of white collar fraud, the objective of mail fraud is to accomplish a desired result by deception, trickery, concealment, and/or dishonesty, albeit through the use of the United States Mail Service or other private/commercial interstate carriers. Statutorily regulated since 1872, the United States Supreme Court has repeatedly upheld the authority of Congress to pass the statute.
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I did none of the underlined. I did not deceive him, trick him, conceal the quality of an item as it left my house, nor was I dishonest in any way.
 
it is not absurd to insure automaticaly
if you did we would not have this discussion

also they should not refund the money
YOU SHOULD

if you had insurance its still up to you to give back the money and deal with the shipper

also satisfaction is on you untill he says it works not the other way around

im not calling you a fraud
im just saying what i would do

also they offer the insurance option so you can buy it
that statement was absurd

and also i wont be removed from this thread


YOU ASKED FOR OPINIONS

in a public forum
if you do not like my opinion then you should have PM'd each member


so
as i said

THIS IS ALL ON YOU

MAKE IT RIGHT

you are #171 on my DNT list
 
Well newegg is a biz and you cant compare personal sales to biz sales, 2 different monsters there altogether.

Bottom line, he offered the insurance right on the thread and the buyer didnt take it.
 
computerdude said:
LOL! yeah the box must have been shaken hard repeatedly in order for the cpu to come out of the plastic holder and bubble wrap. Man I am upset at the Post Office all the stuff I send or receive has been in excellent condition except for this. WickedAngel is a good trader and I agree he shouldn't have to do this for me but I would do the same for him. he is a great guy for doing this for me and will trade with him again.
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Can we see picutures of this alleged damage and the packaging? Sounds like BS to me...no way would it just "fall out" of bubble wrap AND the plastic container.
 
Well no pics didn't think I would need them.. I'm telling the truth on this, honest.WickedAngel could back that up when he gets the cpu back to try to straighten the pins for me.
 
I seriously have to question how the CPU came out of the plastic holder it was in if the shipping box was unopened...

Personally, I love DHL, but have never had any problems with any shipping provider. I like USPS cuz it's cheap and fast... I insure most of my items unless they're under $25 (where it's pretty much pointless and not a big deal to buy insurance)

If the seller wants to include insurance, that is an option, their option. If the buyer doesn't like that it isn't insured/doesn't agree with the policy, he doesn't have to buy it. Or if it is offered, but it costs extra, that's once again the buyer's choice. If the item gets there damaged and was not insured it's not the seller's fault (unless the item was damaged prior to shipping which is undeterminable.. hence why you get insurance on items > $25!) - but I still have to question how the cpu would be out of the plastic holder.. in a box that wasn't opened.

Possible scenarios could be that the seller damaged the item prior to shipping and purposely left it out of the container/wrapping to make it arrive as though it was damaged during shipping.. or the buyer damaged it after recieving it and doesn't want to waste his money, so insists it was damaged upon arrival. Only they know what happened... but when someone has been arround selling/buying/trading items for a LONG time and has 100% feedback/heatware.. I definately wouldn't put any blame on them.
 
Well, sorry I doubt you but the story seems farfetched. It's extremely difficult to damage a CPU that's properly packaged unless you drive the mail truck OVER the package.
 
Well believe what you want why would I lie? I am not gaining anything from it WickedAngel said he would try to fix the pins and I'll take his word on it. If he can't then I guess I'm sol.
 
Holy Hanna the seller and the buyer came to a mutually arrived at solution almost 20 posts ago and people are still arguing over it. One clown even has the gaul to call the buyer a liar about the damage in the first place even though the buyer isn't benefiting in anyway from this. Hell he's losing out on the deal with having to wait for his processor to be shipped 2 ways plus the time it's going to take the seller to straighten the pins. In my opinion both the buyer and seller in this case are both stand up traders.
 
I think some of these things should be explained. I've yet to see anything but hospitality from computerdude, but this makes me wonder.

Pfenning, Mike aka XP_Freak at ocworkbench. Lives in St Marys, Ohio. Possibly also using the name "Kelly". A trader sent him money for an XP cpu and since he's never received the cpu nor any communication from Pfenning. *Update: Finally made good on 2 deals he had refused to repay earlier and ONLY did so because of a lot of pressure. Still one to avoid at all costs.
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http://pcabusers.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=5254

Computerdude - Is already on the AT and PCAbusers list as a bad trader. Is a pain in the ass to deal with, has a bad attitude and insults other users. Avoid. Mike Pfenning [mpfenning@bright.net] thank you so much for spamming my (and other members) inbox(s) with your foul mouthed insults. Grow up.
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http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?threadid=112002
 
Hey WickedAngel that post at pcabusers is bogus. I made good on the deal as it says and the situation was blown way out of proportion. Anyway they said I used Kelly as a name come on wtf they don't even know what went on, it was over 3yrs ago and still they can't get it right. Think what you want about the thread but my heat and attitude here should speak for itself. I have had no complaints and bad trades.Its not like I am trying to screw anyone I just want my cpu fixed so I can use it or sell it.If I wanted to scam anyone it would have been done already. But since people live or die by those pcabuser posts acting like I robbed a bank or something when they don't even know the situation.
 
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