![[H]ard|Forum](/styles/hardforum/xenforo/logo_dark.png){kind=logo}
-
Some users have recently had their accounts hijacked. It seems that the now defunct EVGA forums might have compromised your password there and seems many are using the same PW here. We would suggest you UPDATE YOUR PASSWORD and TURN ON 2FA for your account here to further secure it. None of the compromised accounts had 2FA turned on.
Once you have enabled 2FA, your account will be updated soon to show a badge, letting other members know that you use 2FA to protect your account. This should be beneficial for everyone that uses FSFT.
Samsung XL24 - LED Backlight screen!
- Thread starter Mastakill
- Start date
Watch out for the fact that the XL20 and XL30 aren't wide-screen (4:3 I think).
That XL24 is wide-screen which is good.
It actually says 8ms g2g response time on the Samsung page.
I've just got the SM 245T, which I measured to have 2.5 frames of input lag
Beautiful display, but not good for twitch-gamers... Too much processing going on...Note that the life of these early LED backlit displays seem to be much shorter than CCFL ones. (I would have thought the LEDs would last longer, but guess the technology is immature.)
Are there any reviews out for this 24"?
---
4rkon
what a waste of LED's, sorry but why bother pairing a PVA based panel with LED's?
cr*p LCD module + led backlight = cr*p monitor
need I mention there will be 24" IPS screens with just over 100% gamut using W-CCFL's, manufacturers should concentrate on fixing existing issues (input lag, contrast ratio, viewing angles, response time etc...) rather than LED backlights.
cr*p LCD module + led backlight = cr*p monitor
need I mention there will be 24" IPS screens with just over 100% gamut using W-CCFL's, manufacturers should concentrate on fixing existing issues (input lag, contrast ratio, viewing angles, response time etc...) rather than LED backlights.
...because it is Samsung's technology
I doubt Samsung are going to move away from PVA any time soon.Are there going to be CCFL backlights with 123% or more gamut? I don't think so in the near future. The blacks on these LCD backlit panels are fantastic.
Let's hope Philips pairs its H-IPS screens with LED backlights at some point. Do you know of anyone else using LED backlights?
I reckon the input lag will be just as bad as the other panels though...
---
4rkon
Not an expert on screens but could someone tell me why IPS panels are better than PVA?
Also some apple monitors coming out soon which have LED back lighting. Been waiting since like March to buy a new 30" monitor and thought this XL30 would be out in August but it is just dragging on and on!
The XL30 is wide screen, I think there were some strange pictures around originally but it is definitely a widescreen. http://www.tftcentral.co.uk/news_archive/5.htm#samsung_xl30 (scroll a bit down the page)
Also some apple monitors coming out soon which have LED back lighting. Been waiting since like March to buy a new 30" monitor and thought this XL30 would be out in August but it is just dragging on and on!
IPS are meant to have better viewing angles, and low input lag compared to PVA. They do have "screen-door" effects though, where you can see the individual pixels (or the outline of them).
Hmm... yeah I was confused by the initial images that seemed to show them as 1600x1200 non-widescreen. We'll just have to wait 'til they firm up the specs.
Edit: What a beast! 2560x1600 with 6ms g2g? Samsung UK Spec. Can someone please buy one of these and test the input lag??
Oooh! Will have to look at those... Trouble is, I'm not a fan of their styling... I prefer the deep smart black of the Samsung SyncMasters.
---
4rkon
PixyJunket
n00b
- Joined
- Aug 30, 2006
- Messages
- 23
I'ev been rocking a Samsung 204T and this sounds like a hot upgrade if it wasn't over $1K.
Actaully, I would upgrade to anything PVA or IPS with TN refresh rates.
Actaully, I would upgrade to anything PVA or IPS with TN refresh rates.
Would you say there is much difference in quality when it comes to actually looking at the screen or is it mainly the input lag which is the difference?
Yeah that is the XL30 there, good to see they finally have it up on their website. Just done a search on google for LS30EDDLB and on the German version of the Samsung site it says the monitor is out in December 2007 so I'd assume it is the same for us in the UK as well. Only 2 months more to go now if the price is right, which I think it won't be!
Another question if you don't mind but does it mean by Brightness - 200cd/㎡. The Samsung SM-245B has 400cd/㎡ whereas this one has 200. I'm assuming it means the higher the number the brighter but how come there is such a difference between different monitors?
As for the Apple, yeah I agree with you I am not a big fan of their styling either. This Samsung looks the business but I think I would get over the style if the apple had much better specs.
sorry but the input lag and contrast shift is horendous on anything PVA based, these are more important issues than the colour space IMO.
PS LED's do not increase the contrast ratio
I'ev been rocking a Samsung 204T and this sounds like a hot upgrade if it wasn't over $1K.
Actaully, I would upgrade to anything PVA or IPS with TN refresh rates.
your looking at $2000 at least, the 20" 4:3 is $1700 plus the fact that it comes with a calibrator, I'd say anything upto $2500.
the XL30 well $3000-$4000 give or take.
The panel is half the brightness of the 245B then. I'm guessing the LEDs just output less light than the CCFL tubes; but this isn't really a problem seeing as most of us have to turn down the Brightness to 30% or less! N.B. cd = candela = luminous intensity per square centimetre.
[As an aside: our department here at work invented Super-TN LCD technology (super-twist) many years ago
Not that I'm personally an expert ]Input lag is only a problem if you want to play FPSs on them.
Contrast shift? What do you mean? Have you got a link to that discussion? Haven't heard about that, would be interested.
About the LEDs: I thought that, by turning off completely the LEDs behind certain black regions of the image you can get fantastic black levels. I don't think you can do that with the horizontal CCFL tubes that run the entire width of the screen? I was talking more about the black levels than contrast.
The panel is half the brightness of the 245B then. I'm guessing the LEDs just output less light than the CCFL tubes; but this isn't really a problem seeing as most of us have to turn down the Brightness to 30% or less! N.B. cd = candela = luminous intensity per square centimetre.
[As an aside: our department here at work invented Super-TN LCD technology (super-twist) many years ago
Input lag is only a problem if you want to play FPSs on them.
Contrast shift? What do you mean? Have you got a link to that discussion? Haven't heard about that, would be interested.
About the LEDs: I thought that, by turning off completely the LEDs behind certain black regions of the image you can get fantastic black levels. I don't think you can do that with the horizontal CCFL tubes that run the entire width of the screen? I was talking more about the black levels than contrast.
what you are suggesting would only work with 1000's of LED's, this 24" display will have no where near that. LCD's will always have poor black levels as its a passive technology, only active displays (OLED, SED, FED, Plasma etc...) can achieve a fantastic black level.
As for the contrast shift it affects all VA based LCD's, its when the sides of the monitor display a different hue and/or crush the black detail. If your into dark games/photo-editing/video work then its a major problem.
yeah the UK page lists it as 8ms G2G, however, the German spec lists it as 6ms G2G, and the French Spec lists it as 8ms / 6ms G2G. Given we're up to Samsung's 6ms G2G gen of S-PVA, I would expect this to be the final spec
Samsung has released some televisions with selectively lit LEDs, which are supposed to be able to achieve massive contrast ratios (500,000:1). This is dynamic contrast, but the line between the dynamic and static/native contrast ratios might be blurred a bit in such a lighting scheme, because bright areas won't have to be attenuated in an otherwise dark scene.
1000:1, of course, is just typical for an LCD. However, the 250 cd/m2 max brightness might still bode well for the minimum black level achievable. In terms of LCDs anyhow and if the unit has a real backlight adjustment...
1000:1, of course, is just typical for an LCD. However, the 250 cd/m2 max brightness might still bode well for the minimum black level achievable. In terms of LCDs anyhow and if the unit has a real backlight adjustment...
dynamic contrast is a marketing gimmick, you cant achieve 500,000:1 contrast ratio with a passive display technology.
You can pump up the brightness which will skew the contrast ratio however the minimum black level is unaffected. My argument in LED backlights is that they are a stop-gap solution until LCD technology is replaced alltogether.
You can pump up the brightness which will skew the contrast ratio however the minimum black level is unaffected. My argument in LED backlights is that they are a stop-gap solution until LCD technology is replaced alltogether.
I don't know what you mean by passive here. Passive LCD displays are ancient history from what I understand.
In any case, the 500,000 to 1 figure refers to the new Samsung LCD TV's with "local dimming."
Along with the new Pioneer Kuro plasmas, they appear to be a breakthrough product.
(SED, OLED, some day soon I hope, but we aren't there yet...in terms of big displays anyway....)
For the XL24, the only advance of using the LED is apparently a wider color gamut. (Though if using the LED is why the brightness is "only" 250, I think that's also an advantage in real world use, as opposed to "pick me!" show room display...)
by passive I mean the LCD itself isn't visable without a backlight behind it, this reason alone will give a poor black level.
active displays like Plasma/OLED do not need a backlight since the pixel itself is illuminated hence it can be turned off.
active displays like Plasma/OLED do not need a backlight since the pixel itself is illuminated hence it can be turned off.
Active and passive refer to the type of matrix behind the panels. Not to self-illumination or not that I've heard of...
I sympathize with your general position however. I'm still using a CRT for my computer...
In the industry, "Active" and "Passive" refer to the type of matrix addressing: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Active-matrix_liquid_crystal_display
---
4rkon
Kaldskryke
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,346
So how long until we have RGB LED Backlit displays with local dimming available at <52" sizes? It doesn't seem like any of these smaller panels have local dimming, and that's what gets you a better contrast ratio.
We've been hearing about these 'new' display technologies for so long now... I'm getting a little impatient. If only SED hadn't been delayed so many times!
We've been hearing about these 'new' display technologies for so long now... I'm getting a little impatient. If only SED hadn't been delayed so many times!
forget the matrix type, that is specific to LCD. Im refering to displays in general i.e. CRT, LCD, SED, FED, Plasma etc...
CRT, SED, OLED, FED & Plasma are active i.e. require no back light (the main reason why they can achieve a massive black level.
OLED, for example, also uses a passive or active matrix.
What's wrong with the straight to the point adjective: self-illuminated?
Afterall, LCD pixels are in fact quite active little critters. It's just their tiny shutters can't close all of the way to block all the light. And yes, they're slow, but they try their hardest and do their best...
Kaldskryke
[H]ard|Gawd
- Joined
- Aug 1, 2004
- Messages
- 1,346
Haha, when I said less than 52" I didn't mean 11"! If they can manage to make 24"-32" OLED displays soon, that would likely be nicer than a LED LCD, but at what cost? AFAIK OLED technology is having difficulty scaling up. I can't imagine why it would be difficult to scale the LED backlights the new Samsung HDTVs have to a smaller panel size.
Just as a random thought though, didn't Brightside hold a patent on local-dimming LED backlights? They called them Independantly Modulated LEDs (IMLEDs) at the time, but I remember bit-tech saying they had a patent on the tech or something. They got bought up by Dolby a while ago and no-one has heard from them since, it seems.
The black issue with LCDs is one reason why I still have a CRT.
These types of monitors are sold to people interested in colour accuracy, not artificially inflated numbers on the spec sheet. Take your pick of EIZO, Barco etc reference monitors & you'll see the peak luminance value is generally a lot lower than the consumer or corporate office oriented displays
Note also that the white luminance according to the sRGB spec is only 80cd/㎡
http://www.color.org/srgb.pdf
These displays would be expected to operate in a light controlled studio & so don't need to be super bright in order to calibrate properly.
Your Samsung 245B may well end up in brightly lit bedrooms or under office strip lighting. Then the extra brightness available may be useful
Who needs to measure? It's a S-PVA, that panel type more or less guarantees lag by itself. Local dimming also requires that you know when to dim the LEDs, so that in itself means the image processing will need a couple of frames advance warning.
I think you can be pretty confident that this is not a monitor to look at if colour reference + low latency is critical.
This on the other hand might be:
http://www.barco.com/corporate/en/products/product.asp?gennr=1878
Barco LC-3001 (I imagine you'll need to be fairly wealthy if you want one)
Samsung licensed the tech from them.
How much would that Barco monitor cost?
you got that right, PVA=LAG end of story.
IPS all the way dude, I may settle with a TN until the 26" LG S-IPS appears in March/April or what ever Apple releases in January.
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2004
- Messages
- 8,428
when samsung first rel. the spec. of the xl30, they said the speed is like 24 ms. How did it transpire to 6 ms?
I've pretty much denounced any LCD purchase for myself. I'm simply waiting for FED to roll out...I'mma just nab a refurbished a grade FW900 from accurateit till the time comes. Atleast they come with a 1 year warranty..Although refurbished is still unsettling with or without a warranty.
I havent tested AMVA, benq's design. I have checked out PVA and I havent found one that compares even slightly to my h-ips Planar 26". Pva has better black viewing angles when nothing is on the screen, but thats it. colour washes out, clarity is really not as good as it should be, etc.
for 1600, I wouldnt get anything that was 95% perfect. 1600 actually is cheap for a LED monitor at this point. If one was ips plus that, I would buy it for 1200 around, but that would make sense.
Another thing to point out is something ToastyX said: Wide colour gamut shows colours that were never intended to be shown by the artist. It "over saturates" and is inaccurate. So, led isnt better in the colour category, but the contrasts of blacks should be neat and well worth the rediculous out of range colour spectrum (120% ntsc if i remember right?)
I didnt think so, but to be honest, crt's arent great for gaming when you have almost 0 input lag lcd's out. the "absolute" blacks of a crt are unoticed in modern gaming as the artists are setting (for a long time it appears) to be looked at on an lcd. i have a 2070sb Mitsu. and it is really nice, the competitor to yours. it sits in the basement awaiting a moron who is immature to purchase it nearby while i hang out on my planar 26"
input lag is everything, so it probably is a good idea to stick with the crt until you can afford a 0 or near 0 lag monitor. seeing the difference is scary!
LED will not help the blacks, unless there is local dimming, a feature which is presently only found in some 40+ Sharp TVs. (At least in terms of released products...)
Inch per inch, a good CRT still offers substantially better image quality. (Much closer to true black. Up to 15 times the contrast ratio.)
But that Planar probably still looks good and offers a lot more image. So it's ultimately a subjective choice. If I do have to replace my CRT with an LCD, I'd definitely get a big one to help compensate for sure...
(Games still have night scenes and such, so I don't think programmers can really program around LCD limitations...)