Samsung 193P+ and 970P

[Buzdovan]

I got the 193P+ a few days ago and it's a fantastic monitor. Amazing contrast, colors, sharpness, viewing angles etc. However, there is one thing I'm concerned about. Only two days after I got the monitor, the newer model, the 970P became available here. It has the same specs but supposedly has a faster response time (6ms vs. 8ms on the 193P+).

Now, the 193P+ handles games pretty well. In games with lighter colors I see no difference compared to a CRT. However, certain color transitions still ghost a bit. Mostly noticeable on black vs. *certain* shades of grey. For example, in Operation Flashpoint (game with mostly grey colors) I noticed a black tree that ghosted a bit againts the grey sky when I turned left and right quickly. Only a couple of minutes later, I tried the same at the exact same position and there was no ghosting at all. As soon as the color of the sky had changed only slightly, the ghosting disappeared totally.

My question is, is there a big difference in speed between the 193P+ and 970P? According to guys at Behardware there is, but from what I've seen, they have never even tested the 193P+, only some Fujitsu Siemens monitor that uses the same panel. I think that shouldn't matter much since there are many monitors that use that panel and they are obviously not all the same speed. So, do you guys think I should exchange my monitor for the 970P? I like the looks of the 193P+ MUCH better and only if the 970P was noticeably faster would I consider doing that. If there isn't much difference, I'd rather stay with the 193P+ as it's pretty much perfect (no dead pixels, no backlight leakage at all, better looks etc.). I know this is a long shot but has anyone by any chance had the opportunity to play games on both monitors and could tell whether there is a big difference between the two?

 

[M'ichal]

Ah, another person satisfied with 193p+. That monitor is gaining a lot in my eyes.

But it's gonna be hard to get such comparison from someone as 970p only came out recently. It's supposed to be a replacement of 193p+. Lets wait, maybe sth will show up.
So u sayin no backlight problems at all? How about color uniformity?

 

[PoweredBySoy]

I would say, given the uncertainty of satisfactory LCDs these days, you'd be very well off just sticking with the 193P+.

You notice little ghosting? There's very little bleedthrough? It has no dead pixels?

Sounds like a sure thing to me. Enjoy it.

I notice zero ghosting on the 970P, and I would say I'm pretty sensitive to things like that. But I haven't ever used 193P+, so I'm unable to compare.

 

[Buzdovan]

Ah, another person satisfied with 193p+. That monitor is gaining a lot in my eyes.

But it's gonna be hard to get such comparison from someone as 970p only came out recently. It's supposed to be a replacement of 193p+. Lets wait, maybe sth will show up.
So u sayin no backlight problems at all? How about color uniformity?

Yeah, no backlight leakage problems. When I turn off all the lights in the room and make the monitor display a totally black screen I can see there is still some light passing through but it's totally evenly distributed across the screen. Best blacks I've seen on an LCD.

Color uniformity is very good too. By looking at Tomshardware's spatial uniformity tests, I'd say the 193P+ is one of the better 19" LCDs when it comes to color uniformity.

Aside from ghosting issues, the monitor is perfect, to me at least

 

[Buzdovan]

I would say, given the uncertainty of satisfactory LCDs these days, you'd be very well off just sticking with the 193P+.

You notice little ghosting? There's very little bleedthrough? It has no dead pixels?

Sounds like a sure thing to me. Enjoy it.

I notice zero ghosting on the 970P, and I would say I'm pretty sensitive to things like that. But I haven't ever used 193P+, so I'm unable to compare.

The thing is, if you see zero ghosting, Behardware may be right that there is a drastic difference in speed between Samsung's 8ms and 6ms PVA monitors. I wouldn't mind if the 193P+ ghosted a little but most of the time there is no ghosting or blurring but on certain transitions it's really visible. For example, by scrolling this thread at moderate speed, I can see the dark red color ghosting against the grey background on the left. Does it happen on the 970P? Could you try this test: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html

When I move the window around on the 193P+, it ghosts quite a bit.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

For example, by scrolling this thread at moderate speed, I can see the dark red color ghosting against the grey background on the left. Does it happen on the 970P? Could you try this test: http://www.prad.de/en/monitore/ghosting_test.html

When I move the window around on the 193P+, it ghosts quite a bit.

Ah, that's a cool test.

Yes, when I resize the window and move it around at a moderate speed, and I can tell you that I do see a faint, short red trail behind the box. So yes, it is ghosting a bit.

I too read that BE review between the Samsungs 6ms and 8ms panels, and he seems to think there is a noticable difference. I haven't seen both monitors first-hand though, so I can't give any sort of comparision.

But no, the 970P isn't perfect on that test you linked. Do I notice any ghosting in normal usage and gaming? Hell no.

 

[Buzdovan]

Ah, that's a cool test.

Yes, when I resize the window and move it around at a moderate speed, and I can tell you that I do see a faint, short red trail behind the box. So yes, it is ghosting a bit.

Mine leaves 1cm, at most 1.5cm long faint red trails when moving the window around at a moderate speed. How does that compare to the 970P? I know it's very had to make any conclusions since neither of us has seen both monitors first hand but I have to make the decision quickly so any help is appreciated.

If I only knew how the 193P+ compares to other VA+Overdrive monitors on the market (response time wise), everything would be much easier. Right now, I'm not sure whether it's "equally slow as 25ms PVA" as Behardware claims or it's normal for overdrive LCDs to ghost like that on certain transitions. I'd definitely keep it if it was a little slower than the 970P (after all, it's claimed response time is higher) but if 6ms PVA is a totally new "generation" of LCDs, as Behardware says it is, I'd rather have a newer technology display that doesn't ghost like that.

 

[M'ichal]

Ah, that's a cool test.
Do I notice any ghosting in normal usage and gaming? Hell no.

And I think that's what counts Nothing is perfect and if you're looking hard enough, you'll find faults. But if they're not noticable and don't bug you...then it's all good.

Buzdovan:
Yeah, what you see is not really "backlight leaking", it's just the problem of true blacks with LCDs. So you can consider your monitor as being leak-free Which is good.

 

[PoweredBySoy]

Mine leaves 1cm, at most 1.5cm long faint red trails when moving the window around at a moderate speed. How does that compare to the 970P?

Oh geez, now this is getting really subjective. I mean, I guess my 'trail' is about as long as yours.... about a cm. But then, who knows if we're moving it the exact same speed. Plus, my trail is pretty dim too.

All I'm saying is that the 970P, when testing it's limits like this, isn't perfect. I doubt any LCD on the market is. But for what I use it for, it's performance is top notch.

If the 193P+ truly bothers you during actual usage, then yeah, I'd say go for the switch. Because I can gaurantee you that the 970P isn't going to be worse. It just depends on how much hassle and money the switch is going to cost you.

Do your research and get a kickass monitor. But don't forget how fun it is to play games too.

 

[Buzdovan]

Hehe, thanks. I totally agree with you guys. I usually never do tests like this because if something doesn't bother me during actual usage, I don't consider it a problem. The only reason why I posted those ghosting tests was that i just wanted to find out whether my display is drastically slower as Behardware say it is. I mean, if my monitor is as slow as they claim, then all those fast VA panels with overdrive must be pretty amazing speed wise.

I'm still undecided whether it bothers me that much because at times it works like a CRT and all of a sudden ghosting kicks in. It wouldn't cost me any money to make the switch but there is a risk of dead pixels plus I'm not too crazy about the way the 970P looks compared to the 193P+

 

[Buzdovan]

So... I've had no luck finding anyone who has had experience with the 193P+ and other VA monitors with overdrive. I've tried many things to make a comparison but nothing could give me a definitive answer. The only thing that came close to being useful was taking a photo of a moving car in the Pixel Persistence Analyser program that Behardware started using in their tests. In case anyone's interested, here are the results:

193P+

Compared to the 770P (highly praised by Behardware for it's reactivity):

To me, the response time on both monitors looks similar. The 770P does seem to be faster, probably due to a more aggresive use of overdrive (white trails look more pronounced than on the 193P+).

However, I have no ghosting issues with any of the colors used in this test anyway so it doesn't mean much to me at all. I play GTA San Andreas with no problems 99% of the time. But, as soon as there is a lot black and grey transitions, ghosting becomes very appearent. Today I installed Joint Operations just to see how the monitor performs and in the first couple of missions, I was very satisfied that there was no ghosting and almost no blurring at all. Then, I loaded a mission that had a grey sky and the monitor ghosted like never before. One interesting thing I noticed though is that the monitor is a lot slower until it warms up for like 20-30 minutes. But even then, the ghosting doesn't disappear.

That's why I decided to ask the store to let me try out the 970P. Seeing as they don't have any games installed over there I'll have to bring some ghosting tests with me. Aside from usual tests from prad.de, I found that this photo (taken from some other forum): http://img15.imgspot.com/u/05/325/20/frontviewDSCN03891132710760.jpg blurs quite a bit when I move it across the screen. Would any Viewsonic VP191B or Samsung 970P (or any VA + overdrive monitor for that matter) owner try this? Because I'm having a hard time believing the VP191B would blur that much when scrolling/moving that photo given it's measured response time on Tomshardware.

 

[mistar]

Hello thread.

As I explained in the other thread about 970P the difference isn't that big but let me elaborate on it. The other thread: http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=981090

I have had the amusement of having the VP930 (successor to VP191) and 193p+ next to each other. I recently received the 970P but I haven't had the time to calibrate it with my LaCie tool. The response time was, however, the first thing I looked at.

Buzdovan asked:

Seems you are the only one who has answers on my questions! So, you are saying the 193P+ is an improvement over the old 193P and the 970P isn't that much faster as Behardware are saying? Accoring to them, the 6ms PVA is a totally new generation of panels by Samsung while the 8ms and 25ms versions were the same (very slow). I can't compare my 193P+ to anything else so I was wondering if ghosting issues that I'm having are normal. For example, by just scrolling the two pictures that you posted I can see quite a bit of blurring. I know LCDs still aren't near as fast as CRTs are but I was expecting better black to grey response times. Perhaps my monitor is "defective" (ie overdrive isn't working) or something because I don't see many overdrive artifacts (white trails) behind fast moving objects?

First of. The 193p+ is far faster than the old 193p (which I also had the pleasure of testing some time ago). Samsung 193p is a PVA based monitor without Overdrive. 193p+ is a PVA based monitor with Overdrive and the difference is huge (response time). Most PVA based monitors without Overdrive are slower than 80 ms in many transitions. 193p+ is close to VP191 which is measured by Toms Hardware but the trailing is, however, different. Because of that objective measurement don't tell everything. Two monitors might as well operate at the same speed but how the trailing turns out in practice is very decisive.

See my example in the other thread.

I haven't tested the Fujitsu Siemens P19-2 but Behardware cannot conclude such things about trailing for the 193p+ just because they had the P19-2 in the labs. After Overdrive appeared many things vary from one monitor to another monitor. You have different kinds of Overdrive and different technologies such as ADDC and SpeedQuest. Most are more or less "patented" so companies develop their own.

The problem with most new Samsung Overdrive monitors is that the trailing becomes more visible because of the white halo. That is what you see on the pictures from Behardware whit the funny guy and the car.
The 193p+ and the 970P are not very different. I see no actual improvement and the 970P suffers from the same kind of trailing as the 193p+. I even talked to the responsible persons here in Denmark about the response time before the 970P saw the light of the day and he said something like, "well okay, it's says 6 ms here but you know...".

So no real difference between 193p+ and 970P (response time). And if you find a difference in practice it very close to not visible.

The reason that you see more blurring in scenes with grey and black colors is because of the Overdrive. Experience shows that Overdrive monitors react to these colors and therefore we took a good screenshot from CS and integrated it in our test program: http://tft.vanity.dk/ - Flash is required.

Press F11 to get a full screen image (on 1280x1024 monitors) or download the exe version. Catch the cursor and choose from the menu. Pick slør/trailing and pick the test below the scrolling text. Here you find a screen shot form CS. Try to move it from side to side to see how any monitor works in practice (CS in this case).

That's a good test for the Overdrive based monitors (and others as well).

You may also see the Overdrive trailing if you move the cursor from side to side on the grey background on this page (in the textboxes).

 

[Line Bender]

Hi everyone, first post here. I've been lurking on this board for almost 6 months and i finally tought i had something usefull to say

I have my Samsung Syncmaster 770P for almost 2 weeks now, this is the best panel i've used so far, it even beats the Lacie 321 21" monitors we use at work color and response time-wise.

i did a review on a dutch forum with some pics, if anyone's interested i'l start a new topic with a review in English.

here's some pics and a little movie of my 770P in action:

http://users.pandora.be/bogaard/770p

Bottom line of my review was:
- best quality colors i've ever seen on any screen (the panel has a contrast ratio of 1500:1, bigger than that of the 970P
- good enough for games, still some ghosting but so niglectable you wont even notice.

I've also been trying to color calibrate this monitor for 2 weeks now, especially trying to set gamma at 2.2 and keep difference in black variations whilst trying to keep my blackest black as deep as possible and i've come to one minor point:

It takes my monitor about 30 minutes to warm up, on power up gamma is 2.6, and it gradually drops down to the desired 2.2 over the course of aprox. 30 minutes.

But that's a problem CRT's had too, and it might also be due to the fact that i'm in a freezing room.

Great piece of equipment! I'm allready contemplating a second one

 

[Buzdovan]

Mistar, thanks a lot for a long and detailed answer. It was very helpful. I tried the test and the trails seem bigger to me than they are on the picture of the 193P+ that you posted in the other thread. Also, on mine the hands leave a ghost image too, not just the gun. I'm really beggining to think there is something wrong with my monitor

 

[mistar]

If you have CS installed you need to move the picture at the approx. same speed. The pictures I showed in the other thread are made in Photoshop and that is why you don't see any trailing on the hand. We just took the screenshot and made an example on the weapon.

Try to calibrate your monitor; especially the contrast can have a great effect on the response time.