Samsung 17" LCD w/600:1, 12ms!, 3-Year Backlight Warranty! $299.99 free shipping

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JerRatt

Limp Gawd
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Nov 30, 2004
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Found this on buy.com:

http://www.buy.com/prod/Samsung_17_LCD_Display/q/mp/65/loc/101/10382093.html

We just bought 8 of these for our gaming center...

Samsung 710N Black 17" LCD $299.99 w/free ground shipping

Dimensions (WxDxH) - 14.6 in x 6.9 in x 15 in
Dot Pitch / Pixel Pitch - 0.264 mm
Max Resolution - 1280 x 1024 / 75 Hz
Image Aspect Ratio - 4:3
Interface - VGA (HD-15)
Power Consumption Operational - 34 Watt
Max Sync Rate (V x H) - 75 Hz x 81 kHz
Video Bandwidth - 135 MHz
Response Time - 12 ms
Image Brightness - 300 cd/m2
Image Contrast Ratio - 600:1
Image Max H-View Angle - 160
Image Max V-View Angle - 160
Warranty - parts and labor - 3 years Limited warranty - backlight - 3 years

Three years backlight warranty is a big selling point for us. The major factors in this deal is the 12ms pixel response (Far better than most 17" LCD's) and you should be able to push up to 83 frames per second before any ghosting would occur (which wouldn't matter anyway because the maximum refresh rate can only be set to 75hz). The contrast ratio is also outstanding compared to other 17" LCD's at 600:1. The brightness is better than most 17" LCDs at 300 cd/m2.
 
I've got an older version of this...170s. I couldnt be a happier gamer...except with one of those 2005 wide dells!
 
Nice monitor, I think it was up for $281 earlier this week. Only issue with it was a lack of DVI input. Good deal for a nice gaming LCD.
 
This monitor is analog. Would there be a noticable difference in clarity between it and one with a purely digital connection? My video card has ports for both, but if the analog signal is going to degrade quality, especially how text is displayed, I gotta pass.

Good price and refresh!
 
As far as gaming, with 12ms pixel response it's gonna be great! When pixel refresh takes too long you can get ghosting (try swinging around quickly in Counter-strike and you'll see a sort of blur and it's hard to see until you come to a stop). So for gaming the major issue is pixel response. To get a better grasp on pixel refresh use this:

Take 1000 and divide it by pixel response of an LCD, in this case 12ms...

1000 / 12 = 83.333~

That's rougly 83 frames per second you'd have to be pushing before ghosting would occur at a high degree. Also, if you consider that the maximum refresh rate of this particular LCD is 75Hz (75 screen refreshes a second) at 1280x1024, you're gonna be fine with that type of pixel response. You can NEVER get rid of ghosting in it's entirety (it happens with any kind of display, not just LCD), but you can make sure it's reduced beyond the point where you'd never notice it by buying a quality LCD with a low pixel response. Most 17" LCD's will come with 25ms (40 frames per second) and some higher end models with 16ms (62.5 frames per second), but this having 12ms is outstanding!

Contrast ratio is also important (in general, not just gaming). This LCD has 600:1, which means the monitor has 600 shades of contrast between black and white (the more the better). This is VERY good for an LCD, even in the professional high-cost range. A wide majority of decent 17" LCD's come with 400:1 or 450:1 (still good, but not like this samsung).

I don't know much about the brightness ratings on LCD's, but I do know higher is better. This one having 300 cd/m2 compared to 200 or 250 cd/m2 on most other 17" LCD's, I'd say better.

The best part about this monitor (as I am a reseller) is that it comes with a 3-year backlight warranty along with the standard labor/parts 3-year warranty. Read closely on most other LCD's you find, the box will usually say 3-year warranty, but upon closer examination this is just for parts and labor (no backlight). Backlight warranties on 90% of other LCD's will be 1-year even if they have a 3-year parts/labor warranty. And trust me, if your backlight goes out after a year, you might as well kiss the LCD goodbye because it's gonna cost more to have the backlight replaced even with free labor then just buying a whole new LCD altogether.

My only gripe is that it is Analog (VGA connector) only. However, you'd really have to set two identical computers and monitors next to each other (monitors having only a difference of input connectors, one VGA one DVI), to see a difference. On much larger LCD's this difference would become more apparent as well. So, yes, a DVI connector would be much more attractive then a VGA connector, but it would have very minimal effect on image quality. And to pick another LCD with lower quality pixel response (especially for gaming), contrast ratio, and brightness just because it had a DVI connector would be very ill-informed. Using a VGA cable means it has to go through only two conversions from digital (video card) to analog (through the cable) back to digital (in LCD). ANY conversion of ANY data on ANY medium will cause degradation, but how much degradation depends on many numerous factors (quality of parts, properly shielded cables, etc). Make sure you're not using an overly long VGA cable and that it's properly shield and not next to any EMI producing equipment and you shouldn't be able to notice any poor picture quality. Samsung DOES make an identical LCD with a DVI connector... Currently it's about $500.
 
the above post is awesome.


though i dont know if this is right:
That's rougly 83 frames per second you'd have to be pushing before ghosting would occur at a high degree.

dont the extra frames just end up going to the monitor but not being shown in entirity (wouldnt it cause page tearing instead? is it still called ghosting then?

though i gues there is something i really dont know about LCDs. does the entire screen update at once, or are the pixels updated sequentially, or does it depend on the monitor)
200+fps generates page tearing on my LCD.
 
I don't believe response time (and therefore ghosting) has anything to do with the # of FPS your vid card is outputting.
 
actually. that part was correct. (but frames per second just means frames per second, not frames you video card is rendering per second) when q3 is running at 300 fps are you seeing 300 frames per second? no

response time limits how fast a pixel can change, ultimately to how fast the monitor as a whole change to show a new frame

with a response time of 25ms (which is a 40th of a second. 1sec = 1000ms) means the screen can only update 40 times a second, which limits how many frames can be shown per second to 40. even though more frames are being rendered by you video card and are reaching the monitor

you would not be able to see 60 frames a second on a monitor that could only change to another frame every half a second.

that is why response time is important beyond ghosting, and alot (ALOT) of people interperate skipping frames as ghosting.

and manufacturers have wrapped that up inside the total pixel response time (Tr Tf) and for the most part the results are relatively proportionaly accurate

imagine a 1000ms (1 second) response time:
its the difference between being able to change once a second (skipping a frame), and taking a second to change (causes ghosting) [almost the same thing, and bad in one pretty much means bad in the other] in that updating once during a second would be seen as a morphing (ghosting) from one frame to another) and possible showing gfx rendered frames a full one second apart, skipping all the other gfx rendered frames and limiting the frames seen to 1fps
 
its not the speed at which it updates, its the speed at which it takes for a pixel to fully change colors. i'm not sure at the exact measurements but it might be from black to white.
anyways, what occurs is the lcd gets a signal to change a pixel. that pixel gets the signal applied and changes color. it takes time for that pixel to fully transition to the new color. if it happens before the next frame update, it would appear that no ghosting occurs.
what happens on slower monitors (say 40ms) is the pixel doesn't get a chance to fully transition to the new color before it gets another new color applied. the result is the color is half of its true color. then you get this happening over and over if the color keeps changing dramatically, so what happens is you get a kind of blur in motion for games or video. the color doesnt look like and it appears that its still holding some of the old color, effectively blending the old and the new color together. thus creating ghosting.
 
Whoops, I'm not always clear on my explanations on technical aspects of hardware but Ocean and SacLANd hit it pretty good. LCD (Liquid Crystal Display) as I'm told has tiny little crystals (one per pixel I think) that can change color (actually not really change color but more of a phase). I believe SacLANd is right, pixel response is measured from one extreme phase change of a crystal (black) to the other extreme (white), although advertised pixel response is the average response time you should generally receive over the entire product and not an absolute measurement of each pixel individually.

Ghosting is just as both Ocean and SacLANd described, it's essentially a ghost image of a previous frame or frames mixing with a new frame or frames. A complete change of a pixel to it's requested color for a particular frame cannot be completed on some LCD's with slow pixel response because the LCD has already received new information for another frame and has initiated the new color request to said pixel that is still in the process of changing. What you get is a blend of colors and/or shades of colors. For an office environment, a slow pixel response is not really an issue, but for games with dramatically changing scenes (flipping the mouse in first person shooters) or full motion video this can cause a hideous effect.

Yes, tearing is a whole different issue (you can see tearing a lot when memory on a video card is overclocked a little too high). Your refresh rate on your monitor is essentially the setting for the maximum amount of complete screen refreshes (a frame in it's entirety) that can be displayed at a certain resolution. If you forced a monitor to attempt to refresh faster than it's setting you could get both tearing and skipped frames (some old timedemos in games can show this). Certain settings like V-Sync lock a particular application (3d game) from only displaying up to whatever setting you choose (60Hz, 75Hz, etc). I'm not sure exactly what happens but it either dumps the extra frames the video card is supplying (if its good enough) or tells the video card before hand to only produce up-to set refresh rate. Although I've read a lot of different opinions and studies, nobody seems to agree EXACTLY on the refresh a human eye can detect, but generally the many agree it is around 72Hz (which is why you see settings on refresh rates go from 50Hz, 60Hz, 65Hz, 70Hz, 72Hz, 75Hz, 80Hz, 85Hz, etc). So "supposedly" anything faster than 72 FPS is undetectable by the human eye.

As for pixel updating, I'm not sure if it's done in a sort of interlaced way like TV's or some type of horizontal or vertical scan (or combination of both). If you could somehow slow pixel response way down (a second or slower) you'd be able to see how they are updated using a complete color shift (black to white).

So the major point is that a good way to pick an LCD for gaming is to make sure it has quick enough pixel response that ghosting isn't noticeable. However, 16ms response (1000 / 16 = 62.5FPS) doesn't necessarily mean ghosting will not occur until more than 62.5FPS are pushed out to the monitor (also providing the monitor has it's refresh set higher than 62.5Hz so it even attempts to show the frames), it simply means that the closer you get to displaying more than 62.5FPS the more noticeable ghosting will start to becoming (this is due to the fact that pixel response is not an absolute value that each pixel is capable of but rather an average over the entire screen, some pixels may be faster than others in a particular frame change depending on many factors). But even in a game environment, most people probably wouldn't be able to notice ghosting until you were at least a few FPS over the calculated response/fps limit, as ghosting of a wide majority of pixels would only then start to happen.

My advice for LCD gaming. Get a great video card, buy an LCD with a low pixel response and other specifications like the Samsung on here, and set the refresh rate to the appropriate setting.
 
where is this 1000 number comming from? is there a technicial basis for it?
 
1000 is the number of milliseconds in a second, hence that is the number number that gets divided.
 
Has anyone ordered this and RECIEVED it yet? Any idea if this is ongoing or a 1 week sale type thing?
 
JerRatt said:
Take 1000 and divide it by pixel response of an LCD, in this case 12ms...

1000 / 12 = 83.333~

That's rougly 83 frames per second you'd have to be pushing before ghosting would occur at a high degree. Also, if you consider that the maximum refresh rate of this particular LCD is 75Hz (75 screen refreshes a second) at 1280x1024, you're gonna be fine with that type of pixel response. You can NEVER get rid of ghosting in it's entirety (it happens with any kind of display, not just LCD), but you can make sure it's reduced beyond the point where you'd never notice it by buying a quality LCD with a low pixel response. Most 17" LCD's will come with 25ms (40 frames per second) and some higher end models with 16ms (62.5 frames per second), but this having 12ms is outstanding!
Click to expand...
You should be aware that you are happily calculating the "framerate" based on the LCD's best response time, usually white to black. The LCD is not actually capable of switching each pixel in 12ms unless it is white to black to white... It could take 2x as long to go from light grey to dark grey.

Anyways, you can get rid of ghosting. A flourescent light flickers on and off 60 times per second, but it appears steady to 99% of people. Just as the human eye has a resolution ceiling, it has a flicker or flashing ceiling too.
 
I have this monitor. Reading text @ 1280x1024 on the 17" Samsung 710/712n is easier than reading text @ 1024x768 on my 19" NEC 950+ CRT. It's easier on the eyes, has a sweet 4 profile color/brightness hotkey, and does not ghost in games...not even instagib. :p
 
Muffin Man said:
Has anyone ordered this and RECIEVED it yet? Any idea if this is ongoing or a 1 week sale type thing?
Click to expand...

Ordered eight a few days ago, tracking number shows to be delivered by Friday.
 
K2Rage101 said:
You should be aware that you are happily calculating the "framerate" based on the LCD's best response time, usually white to black. The LCD is not actually capable of switching each pixel in 12ms unless it is white to black to white... It could take 2x as long to go from light grey to dark grey.
Click to expand...

Which is why in my other post I point out that you cannot soley base when ghosting will occur on the response time alone, as there are many factors that can contribute (which include factors such as advertised response time not being a constant across all pixels, different phase changes taking longer than other phase changes like light grey to dark grey, the actual content of the video being displayed frame by frame and how drastically/quickly it changes, etc etc).
 
Okay, I lied..The deal is still there. Picked one up tonight :-D 3-5 Business Days!

Now I just need my 9800 Pro...have to wait till christmas for that one.
 
since the backlight needs a higher voltage to run anyway, I'm pretty sure the incoming line is rectified and re chopped to a much higher frequency, just like in laptops. This reduces transformer size and eliminates flicker/timing issues.
 
pxc said:
Too bad it doesn't have DVI. :(
Click to expand...

I wish it had DVI too but the other specs make up far more of a positive on this LCD than the absence of DVI.

Buy.com is actually Ingram Micro (a huge distributor that thousands of computer stores purchase from). Buy.com does not have the best reseller ratings, a big company like that always will have issues. But I've order 8 of those LCD's and received them 2 days later using ground shipping (I'm in the same city as Ingram Micro).
 
JerRatt said:
Buy.com does not have the best reseller ratings
Click to expand...
RR is mostly useless. The companies that care about their rating have negative feedbacks removed for the same reasons big companies like buy.com have negatives (mostly dissatisfied deal hunters who complain when price mistake orders are cancelled). It's just a matter of asking RR to remove those, which makes the rating inconsistent.

RR is only useful where a company has really bad ratings. That serves as a warning. I've never had a serious problem ordering from a company with an average or better rating. I've even had minor problems with newegg orders, but those are handled reasonably like every other place I ordered from.
 
pxc said:
RR is mostly useless. The companies that care about their rating have negative feedbacks removed for the same reasons big companies like buy.com have negatives (mostly dissatisfied deal hunters who complain when price mistake orders are cancelled). It's just a matter of asking RR to remove those, which makes the rating inconsistent.

RR is only useful where a company has really bad ratings. That serves as a warning. I've never had a serious problem ordering from a company with an average or better rating. I've even had minor problems with newegg orders, but those are handled reasonably like every other place I ordered from.
Click to expand...
From my own observations i've seen many many customers complain about real dumb things that was quite often their own fault to boot.

It's a crying shame but there's a good chunk of the buying public that's terribly dishonest.

Because of what i've seen I'm often skeptical when i hear complaints backed up with poor testimony. Believe me i'm not trying to stick up for buy.com nor any other retailer for that matter. Just going by what i've seen firsthand in the logistics/delivery bussiness where we deal with other bussiness and JonhQ public....
 
SJetski71 said:
Believe me i'm not trying to stick up for buy.com nor any other retailer for that matter.
Click to expand...
Me neither... I don't particularly like buy.com because of tax plus shipping and delayed preorders, but they do have pretty professional service and one of the best return policies for online stores.
 
Well, I'll tell ya what guys. Why don't you all just pitch in and order me one of those monitors. I'll do my best to write up a 10 page review on packaging, tracking, shipping, satisfaction and other interesting tidbits from the "buy.com" experience. :p
 
Here's my review:

Saw monitor deal online on Tuesday, added 8 monitors to cart, clicked checkout, and entered all needed information. Submitted order of nearly $2400 with free shipping. The next day I got a tracking number saying all item will arrive Friday. Thursday, all 8 monitors arrive. Each monitor is in a complete retail box, and UPS did a nice job handling them. I unbox all and test them on our systems in house, they work flawlessly and look outstanding on a 6800 GT with Half-Life 2.
 
That must have been a lot of work...you're going to be the most popular relative this year!
 
The minute I go to order this thing, they raise the price... boo! I wan't one, grrr...
 
Ok

#1 response time is average response time usually so certain color (grey t grey) transitions, etc... can actually take longer

#2 whats the refresh rate on the moniter? for example, my 19" flat panel i have (or maybe its my videocard) will only allow me to set it at 60Hz.
Can these moniters be set to 85Hz or 100Hz at their native resolution?

I want a 20" flat panel with <10ms response time, DVI input, and 500:1 contrast, etc... :)
until then I'm keeping my 21" trinitron.
 
I have this monitor, running at 1280x1024, great lighting and for games it plays great, don't notice any ghosting or any such, though i've never owned the best equipment in the world either so maybe i'm just over looking the slight flaws. the 710N is indeed an analog , the 710t I hear is digital however.

Anyways, I like it.
 
Even better deal :)

http://www.pcmall.com/pcmall/shop/detail~dpno~637281.asp

$299 after 90 dollar rebate. Good till 12.31

The slim, sleek GM-190B is perfect for the office bringing you vivid, crisp images you'll love to stare at. GEM's GM-190B is an XGA TFT display featuring a 19" viewable screen. Ergonomically designed for the office user in mind, its 500:1 contrast ratio and 1280 x 1024 max resolution brings you superior images and crisp text. The 140-degree right to left and 110-degree up and down viewing angles are excellent for sharing the display with other users.

Features:
•Type: 19" TFT Active Matrix Panel
•Pixel Pitch: 0.294 x 0.294 mm
•Max Resolution: 1280x1024
•Brightness: 350 cd/m²
•Contrast: 600:1
•Multimedia: YES
•Wall Mountable: YES
Display
Monitor Size 19in.
Viewable Size (inches) 19
Pixel Pitch .294 mm
Horizontal Viewing Angle (degrees) 170
Vertical Viewing Angle (degrees) 170
Maximum Resolution 1280 x 1024
Brightness/Luminance (cd/m2) 350
Contrast Ratio 500:1 15kHZ
Signal
Horizontal Frequency Range Min 31kHZ 38Hz
Vertical Frequency Range Min 38Hz
Connectors/Casing
Video Connector 15-pin mini D-sub
Speakers ? Integrated Speakers
TV Tuner integrated? No
Case Color Black
Additional Information
Weight (lbs) 16.
Width (inches) 17.48
Height (inches) 16.77
Depth (inches) 8.46
Manufacturer Information
Parts Warranty 3 years
Labor Warranty 3 years
 
I've noticed that other sites such as Amazon carry the 710n for $330 but they also have the 710n-2. Whats the difference between the 710n and 710n-2. On the samsung site they looked identical, just curious :p thank you.
 
LOL! My post got a deal of the day!

The 8 monitors are for 8 of my PC's I've built at my local gaming center, not for presents... All my family just gets coal.
 
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