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[Rumours] Intel Battlemage facing headwinds

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M

Marees

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Intel Arc Battlemage GPUs are likely delayed and nerfed​

According to Moore’s Law Is Dead, their sources indicate that Battlemage is having “tons of issues to the point that its future is very uncertain.” While it does appear that Intel still plans to release new Arc cards, they’ll neither be timely nor particularly powerful.

if the graphics card ever sees the light of day, it looks as though it’ll rock 448 Execution Units (EU), a 256-bit memory bus, and 16GB of GDDR6X VRAM. For context, that’s fewer EUs than the Arc A770, with the same bus width, and slightly more advanced VRAM.

A potential Intel Arc Battlemage release date now looks set for some time “late Q2 2024”, as a best case scenario. That said, if problems continue behind the scenes, a launch in “2H seems likely.”

https://www.pcgamesn.com/intel/arc-battlemage-release-date-price-specs-benchmarks


NVIDIA unhappy board partners may work with Intel on the Battlemage Series​


Russian channel PRO Hi-Tech reports that NVIDIA is pressuring the largest partners to refuse working with Intel on the next-gen GPU launch.
https://videocardz.com/newz/nvidia-...-may-work-with-intel-on-the-battlemage-series
 
Fewer execution units may not necessarily be a bad things Intel could have made updates to the EUs such that not as many are needed to hit their performance targets, which would mean performance is not going to scale linearly.

Given that NVIDIA has constantly thrown their AIB partners under the bus, I would tell them to fuck off, but with news that EVGA may be going under I don't know if that's the best idea. The large brands like ASUS and Gigabyte would be fine, though, since their hardware business is more robust.
 
I remember not even a year ago being told by this same YouTuber that Intel was no longer making cards and selling off stock and were out of the card market again.

Seems he has an axe to grind with incorrect information.
 
auntjemima said:
I remember not even a year ago being told by this same YouTuber that Intel was no longer making cards and selling off stock and were out of the card market again.

Seems he has an axe to grind with incorrect information.
Click to expand...
I didn't see that they were referencing an MLID video. Opinion discarded. PCGamesN isn't a good publication, anyway.
 
It says it's only happening in China if I read that correctly
 
I have no doubt Intel has probably scaled their silicon targets back. Considering the down turns in the market, and Intels struggles with the 770.
The battlemage plans where drawn up before the first cards ever made it to market. I think Intel got a dose of reality, learning they are not going to jump out of the gate with a Halo product. Also that even if they did no one is going to pay Halo card pricing for a first or even second gen Intel GPU. AMD has learned this already... even if you make a 6900, customers are not going to pay you the same thing they pay Nvidia for essentially the same performance.

With that information. I can see Intel going back to the design and saying lets take this chip and target 3/4 the die space and 3/4 the performance. That could save them some losses if the performance improvement isn't enough, and if the performance is there they know they can't sell much above upper mid range anyway so it means they can still make profit. They are just hedging their bets... if it hits they can do will in the mid range and make money in this market. If they swing for halo and miss again they loose money, if they swing for halo and hit it they still loose money.

A retooling to a mid range target on the second gen makes a ton of sense. It allows them to stay in the game, continue to build board partner relationships and smooth software issues. I think it was always obvious that Intel was going to have to replan battlemage. Throw in a slow in dGPU sales overall and its the only option.
 
Outside when it is a very similar architecture launch (rdna 2-3, Ampere-Lovelace) I am not sure how one can judge a number of execution unit/core/other marketing name, it is often a bit arbitrary what they decide to count as one and quite design related if the number is high or not.

And even then a 4080 has only 12% more core with less bandwidth than a 3080, still a fantastic 46-50% performance jump at 1440/4k:
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/nvidia-geforce-rtx-4070-founders-edition/32.html
https://www.techpowerup.com/review/msi-geforce-rtx-4060-gaming-x/32.html

With the more recent drivers, updated game suite.

As long tsmc deliver, Intel going from TSMC 6 to 4nm should see gain. I

If we are lucky Intel will again make volume of Founder Editions....
 
Battlemage rumor sounds like GPP lite. No brand co-opting, but no chips for Aib if also building Intel. It’s not that hard to believe since they have tried this before. Need Bennett to go get the dirt…again.
 
DukenukemX said:
How does that not effect us in American and Europe?
Click to expand...

Because it has nothing to do with the American or European markets. The rumor is Nvidia is trying to prevent AIB partners from making Intel Battlemage cards for the Chinese market specifically and only, in the rumor. This would only be governed by China and Chinese laws and nothing about America/Europe or American/European laws because what Nvidia is rumored to try to be strong arming isn't for/in/directed towards the American or European markets at all.

So unless you live in China this won't affect you, if it's true. Companies operate differently in different markets, including GPU companies believe it or not (even if you wanna say 'LuLz NvIdIa Iz AsShOlE iN aLl MaRkEtS' - edit: and this also include AIB companies, so they can have/launch/release cards in one market and no cards/different cards in another market as unbelievable as that might sound I'm sure).
 
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staknhalo said:
Because it has nothing to do with the American or European markets. The rumor is Nvidia is trying to prevent AIB partners from making Intel Battlemage cards for the Chinese market specifically and only, in the rumor. This would only be governed by China and Chinese laws and nothing about America/Europe or American/European laws because what Nvidia is rumored to try to be strong arming isn't for/in/directed towards the American or European markets at all.

So unless you live in China this won't affect you, if it's true. Companies operate differently in different markets, including GPU companies believe it or not (even if you wanna say 'LuLz NvIdIa Iz AsShOlE iN aLl MaRkEtS' - edit: and this also include AIB companies, so they can have/launch/release cards in one market and no cards/different cards in another market as unbelievable as that might sound I'm sure).
Click to expand...

That's absolutely incorrect. Nvidia is an American company and is subject to American laws everywhere in the world.

Now, they might try and limit it to the Chinese market, so maybe it has no direct effect on us consumers, or maybe it doesn't violate antitrust laws. But if it did, 100% able to be prosecuted in US courts.
 
TurboGLH said:
Nvidia is an American company and is subject to American laws everywhere in the world.
Click to expand...

The US would have no say in this matter if it were true, because it would only be occurring in China and towards the Chinese market

US law wouldn't apply here (inb4 wHuT aBoUt ExPoRt LaWs), even towards Nvidia in this rumor/situation/scenario

Explain how it would in this scenario, if you otherwise believe so
 
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staknhalo said:
The US would have no say in this matter if it were true, because it would only be occurring in China and towards the Chinese market

US law wouldn't apply here (inb4 wHuT aBoUt ExPoRt LaWs), even towards Nvidia in this rumor/situation/scenario

Explain how it would in this scenario, if you otherwise believe so
Click to expand...
Nvidia is a US company. As such it makes no difference if Nvidia is making product specifically and/or solely for another countries market what isn't relevant to anything. Its still subject to American law.

As an example If any technology in question is encompassed by the Department of Commerce and or the Department of State Nvidia would be subject to the same restrictions as if they where selling that product anywhere else. Nvidia does hold patents on specific tech that is restricted is my understanding. As do other countries like Intel, AMD, Cray and probably a bunch of others. None of them are allowed to export or license that tech to China. They are not allowed to end run that by building a fab or something in China only for China. US law always applies. I mention that only to make the point... US law applies to US companies always everywhere. They are probably less likely to enforce it but it still applies.
 
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Ok I had ChatGPT open anyway... SO I asked her the question. lol

US companies can be subject to American antitrust laws even if their business activities are conducted entirely in another country. The application of US antitrust laws to foreign conduct is based on the extraterritorial reach of these laws.

US antitrust laws, such as the Sherman Act and the Clayton Act, are designed to promote fair competition and prevent anticompetitive behavior, regardless of where the conduct takes place. The US government may assert jurisdiction and enforce these laws against US companies engaged in anticompetitive practices abroad if such practices have a substantial effect on US commerce.

The determination of whether a particular business activity conducted in another country falls under the jurisdiction of US antitrust laws can be complex and depends on various factors. These factors may include the impact on US consumers, the involvement of US-based assets or personnel, and the overall effect on US commerce.

US antitrust enforcement agencies, such as the Department of Justice (DOJ) and the Federal Trade Commission (FTC), have pursued cases involving extraterritorial conduct by US companies. Notable examples include cases involving price-fixing conspiracies, bid-rigging, and monopolistic practices.

It's important for US companies operating internationally to be aware of the potential application of US antitrust laws and to ensure compliance with both US and foreign competition laws. Seeking legal advice from antitrust experts can help companies navigate the complexities of antitrust regulations and mitigate potential risks.
 
No Chinese commerce law applies here not American law lol

Edit: Actually, call your Senators and Congressmen and the FTC and demand Nvidia's head, go for it, record the call and post it 👍

3.12 Jurisdiction Over Conduct Involving Other Foreign Commerce
With respect to foreign commerce other than imports, the jurisdictional limits of the Sherman Act and the FTC Act are delineated in the FTAIA. The FTAIA amended the Sherman Act to provide that it:
shall not apply to conduct involving trade or commerce (other than import trade or commerce) with foreign nations unless

  1. such conduct has a direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable effect:
    1. on trade or commerce which is not trade or commerce with foreign nations, or on import trade or import commerce with foreign nations; or
    2. on export trade or export commerce with foreign nations, of a person engaged in such trade or commerce in the United States; 56
  2. such effect gives rise to a claim under the provisions of [the Sherman Act], other than this section.
The FTAIA uses slightly different statutory language for the FTC Act,57 but produces the same jurisdictional outcomes.
3.121 Jurisdiction in Cases Under Subsection 1(A) of the FTAIA
To the extent that conduct in foreign countries does not "involve" import commerce but does have an "effect" on either import transactions or commerce within the United States, the Agencies apply the "direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable" standard of the FTAIA. That standard is applied, for example, in cases in which a cartel of foreign enterprises, or a foreign monopolist, reaches the U.S. market through any mechanism that goes beyond direct sales, such as the use of an unrelated intermediary, as well as in cases in which foreign vertical restrictions or intellectual property licensing arrangements have an anticompetitive effect on U.S. commerce.
Click to expand...

https://www.justice.gov/atr/antitrust-enforcement-guidelines-international-operations

You have to let other countries conduct their own economies you know, as long as the company doesn't fuck with economic operations/imports (including export laws) in the US, you operate in another country according to that country's laws

You would make it impossible for US citizens to go smoke weed in Amsterdam just because weed is Federally illegal in the US lol

If Nvidia is doing something in China towards the Chinese market, that's a matter for the Chinese authorities if they're breaking Chinese law.

Double edit: If you're gonna call the Chinese to demand Nvidia's head, I suggest you go with Mandarin and not Cantonese 👌🫡
 
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You are mis understanding or representing what the The Foreign Trade Antitrust Improvements Act is and what it does.

All it requires is that conduct has a direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable effect on U.S. domestic or import commerce.

Seeing as 99% of all dGPUs are assembled with parts made in China. This is not even in question. Contracts giving to Chinese companies even if those specific contracts only apply to Chinese market products can have effects on further contracts on parts which are exported from China. No Nvidia is not exempt from US anti trust if they strong arm Chinese suppliers, even if the tactics pertain to specific Chinese market product.

I am not saying I find it likely Nvidia has much to worry about unless they went full GPP on Intel down the road. If they did Intel has just as many people in their pocket as Nvidia does... no doubt Nvidia would be dealing with Anti Trust if they go that far. If they apply a little back room pressure I agree with you its not likely anyone in the US decides to go after them. THEY could though for sure no doubt. FTAIA is not green light to do whatever the fuck you want in other countries. It was mainly brought in to broadly protect companies doing market based pricing it was passed in the 80s, hey Regan liked globalist trade and exporting jobs as much as the next president.
 
ChadD said:
You are mis understanding or representing what the The Foreign Trade Antitrust Improvements Act is and what it does.

All it requires is that conduct has a direct, substantial, and reasonably foreseeable effect on U.S. domestic or import commerce.

Seeing as 99% of all dGPUs are assembled with parts made in China. This is not even in question. Contracts giving to Chinese companies even if those specific contracts only apply to Chinese market products can have effects on further contracts on parts which are exported from China. No Nvidia is not exempt from US anti trust if they strong arm Chinese suppliers, even if the tactics pertain to specific Chinese market product.

I am not saying I find it likely Nvidia has much to worry about unless they went full GPP on Intel down the road. If they did Intel has just as many people in their pocket as Nvidia does... no doubt Nvidia would be dealing with Anti Trust if they go that far. If they apply a little back room pressure I agree with you its not likely anyone in the US decides to go after them. THEY could though for sure no doubt. FTAIA is not green light to do whatever the fuck you want in other countries. It was mainly brought in to broadly protect companies doing market based pricing it was passed in the 80s, hey Regan liked globalist trade as much as the next president.
Click to expand...

So, again, you are arguing, through Nvidia, because Nvidia is a US company, that US law dictates the Chinese economy and overrides China's own economic laws about China's own economy?
 
Still sounds like you're saying US controls how Nvidia operates in China's economy because Nvidia is an American company

They can control if Nvidia can participate in China's economy, and what products they can sell in China, not how they sell them in China. How - including right or wrong - is up to the Chinese and Chinese law
 
ChadD said:
CORRECT. they do. lol
Click to expand...

lol

AMD fanbois man, I swear 🙄

Edit: So a foreign company, in the US, their home country's laws automatically override US law for that company, even here in the US? Because that company is from that other country and not the US even though it is here in the US doing business? Why would any country let foreign companies in? What happens when you have a conflict in laws between countries with the company in the middle? Please explain. Or ask ChatGPT to for you lol

giphy (14).gif
 
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staknhalo said:
lol

AMD fanbois man, I swear 🙄

Edit: So a foreign company, in the US, their home country's laws automatically override US law for that company, even here in the US? Because that company is from that other country and not the US even though it is here in the US doing business? Why would any country let foreign companies in? What happens when you have a conflict in laws between countries with the company in the middle? Please explain. Or ask ChatGPT to for you lol

View attachment 582624
Click to expand...
I'm not sure if your aware... but ya antitrust laws are a mess and companies run into them all the time even if they aren't Dealing with X or Y or selling here or there. The US has went after plenty of companies with only minor interaction with the US market. Or indirect. I would think the most relevant precedent would be cases such as Hynix and Infineon. In both cases lawyers for those companies argued that their price fixing as mainly related to OEMS that where assembling systems outside the US therefore US antitrust didn't apply... both lost. I think Intel could also argue that the case vs LG would be much the same when they admitted too and where fined for price fixing LCD monitors produced outside the US. Granted in that case the monitors where sold into the US... again though arguing that they didn't sell themselves directly into the US was a tactic they tried to use in their defense. Could Nvidia argue that successfully??? I don't know depends what they are saying to whom, and what is in writting... but make no mistake a US prosecutor could bring a suit.

I agreed with you its not likely unless Nvidia goes all in with something like GPP... why do you think they dropped the GPP so fast. You think they really cared that Gamers found out about it? They did not. They cared the Hewlett-Packard was not only highly annoyed they where pushing friends to bring antitrust charges.

Go ahead and scroll through the record high judgements... take a look at how many are international in scope. Not all but many of those cases had minimal impact on the US market directly. That list doesn't even cover all the cases that where brought but later dropped, or settled for much lower numbers.
https://www.justice.gov/atr/sherman-act-violations-yielding-corporate-fine-10-million-or-more
 
ChadD said:
laws are a mess and companies run into them all the time even if they aren't Dealing with X or Y or selling here or there. The US has went after plenty of companies with only minor interaction with the US market. Or indirect. I would think the most relevant precedent would be cases such as Hynix and Infineon. In both cases lawyers for those companies argued that their price fixing as mainly related to OEMS that where assembling systems outside the US therefore US antitrust didn't apply... both lost. I think Intel could also argue that the case vs LG would be much the same when they admitted too and where fined for price fixing LCD monitors produced outside the US. Granted in that case the monitors where sold into the US... again though arguing that they didn't sell themselves directly into the US was a tactic they tried to use in their defense. Could Nvidia argue that successfully??? I don't know depends what they are saying to whom... but make no mistake a US prosecutor could bring a suit.

I agreed with you its not likely unless Nvidia goes all in with something like GPP... why do you think they dropped the GPP so fast. You think they really cared that Gamers found out about it? They did not. They cared the Hewlett-Packard was not only highly annoyed they where pushing friends to bring antitrust charges.

Go ahead and scroll through the record high judgements... take a look at how many are international in scope. Not all but many of those cases had minimal impact on the US market directly. That list doesn't even cover all the cases that where brought but later dropped, or settled for much
Click to expand...

staknhalo said:
Edit: Actually, call your Senators and Congressmen and the FTC and demand Nvidia's head, go for it, record the call and post it 👍
Click to expand...

How Nvidia sells products in China is up to the Chinese, it doesn't have to do with the US market or US economy, but again, post the call after you make it. Go get those bastards! If Nvidia is so evil and bad and voting with your wallet hasn't obviously worked, go call now right? Otherwise, I guess you're enabling Nvidia and this behavior if you don't we'll say lol 👍
 
staknhalo said:
Because it has nothing to do with the American or European markets. The rumor is Nvidia is trying to prevent AIB partners from making Intel Battlemage cards for the Chinese market specifically and only, in the rumor. This would only be governed by China and Chinese laws and nothing about America/Europe or American/European laws because what Nvidia is rumored to try to be strong arming isn't for/in/directed towards the American or European markets at all.

So unless you live in China this won't affect you, if it's true. Companies operate differently in different markets, including GPU companies believe it or not (even if you wanna say 'LuLz NvIdIa Iz AsShOlE iN aLl MaRkEtS' - edit: and this also include AIB companies, so they can have/launch/release cards in one market and no cards/different cards in another market as unbelievable as that might sound I'm sure).
Click to expand...
Just want to point out that it's possible some Chinese AIB's might sell their GPU's outside of China. It's not like any GPU is made outside of China.
staknhalo said:
AMD fanbois man, I swear 🙄
Click to expand...
You do know that AMD isn't involved in this at all? We are all technically arguing in Intel's defense.
 
staknhalo said:
How Nvidia sells products in China is up to the Chinese, it doesn't have to do with the US market or US economy, but again, post the call after you make it. Go get those bastards! If Nvidia is so evil and bad and voting with your wallet hasn't obviously worked, go call now right? Otherwise, I guess you're enabling Nvidia and this behavior if you don't we'll say lol 👍
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I don't know where you have been for the last three years, but boy do I have news for you. :whistle:
How NVIDIA sells in China is absolutely being regulated by the USA government - even megacorps have a leash.

September 2022 - https://www.reuters.com/technology/...-requirement-future-exports-china-2022-08-31/
November 2022 - https://techcrunch.com/2022/11/07/nvidia-us-china-ban-alternative/
June 2023 - https://www.cnbc.com/2023/06/28/bis...ned,to curb Chinese technological advancement.
June 2023 - https://www.cnn.com/2023/06/29/tech/us-china-nvidia-ai-chip-curbs-intl-hnk/index.html
 
So then make the proper calls to the proper authorities if you suspect Nvidia is up to or possibility up to illicit behavior?

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation

And those are exports you posted (AI chip bans), already mentioned that the US controls the exports allowed and not of US based companies, not how they sell in other markets what they're allowed to export. That's up to the laws of the country they are selling in. Not the home nation the company is from lol. So dunno what that shows that's not already known.
 
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staknhalo said:
So then make the proper calls to the proper authorities if you suspect Nvidia is up to or possibility up to illicit behavior?

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation

And those are exports you posted (AI chip bans), already mentioned that the US controls the exports allowed and not of US based companies, not how they sell in other markets what they're allowed to export. That's up to the laws of the country they are selling in. Not the home nation the company is from lol. So dunno what that shows that's not already known.
Click to expand...
If there is anything there, I am sure the FTC is already keeping watch on it. Right now it's just purely an internet rumor.
 
It's all good.

Truth of the matter is for all the "oh look what Nvidia is doing" rumors and distractions posted, posts removed or locked, etc - the best of all is just seeing Nvidia still monumentally grow and succeed despite people's best efforts or wishes. 😁
 
That's why this rumor was so 'just a rumor and nothing really' it was worthy of posting to the [H] News section, I suppose... but again let's just all revel in the monumental success of our respective preferable GPU companies, shall we?
 
staknhalo said:
That's why this rumor was so 'just a rumor and nothing really' it was worthy of posting to the [H] News section, I suppose... but again let's just all revel in the monumental success of our respective preferable GPU companies, shall we?
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I think your taking things a little too personal.
There are reasons to dislike all companies... and they are companies not our friends, or our sports teams.
Nvidia gets a lot of hate the last number of years because of their actions. Intel got a lot of hate 10 years ago because of their actions. AMD got laughed at because for a good stretch they where doing some really silly things, and they still now and then shot a toe off. Personally sure I'm pulling for AMD, without competition the PC market will die. Image if AMD says screw it we are out of dGPUs. What do they do instead... well they probably push APUs up to mid range performance levels (that is probably coming anyway with Zen4 or 5). Then focus completely on keeping the consoles locked up. Which means there hardware still dictates AAA gaming targets for a decade like it or not. Intel isn't really going to keep trying to make gGPUs that loose money... they will do the same get their APU game up. (Intels roadmaps clearly show their plans to push mid range Celestial APUs) At that poitn they may say whatever... let Nvidia sell slightly gimped top end AI silicon as 4090 supers/5090s whatever at $2k a pop.

If you think mid range options are ugly now just wait. in 2-3 years right up to 3070 level performance your probably looking at APUs... and a couple over priced skus from all 3 companies. I would say its likely GPUs jump from $7-800 right up to $1800-2000. lol
 
staknhalo said:
Cool 👍
Click to expand...
It seems like you are treating this situation like it is 2007, not 2023.
Mentioning "AMD fanbois" in a thread that has nothing to do with AMD, and not realizing how modern megacorps act maliciously directly towards their customers and even their own nation-states is anachronistic and not even remotely relevant in this era, especially since everyone has been dealing with this since 2020 and supply chain issues and the most recent crypto boom began.

NVIDIA is a USA-based megacorp and is subject to that nation's laws, regardless of where they sell or have their products manufactured.
The irony is that if NVIDIA is trying to stop Intel from selling GPUs via AIBs in China, that is exactly what Intel was doing with AMD circa mid-2000s.

ChadD said:
There are reasons to dislike all companies... and they are companies not our friends, or our sports teams.
Click to expand...
This.
 
Cool 👍

You guys should call the FTC pronto if they dictate how Nvidia sells allowed exports, in China, to the Chinese, in the Chinese consumer market, and if it's even possible then that Nvidia is doing this, if you genuinely care 👍

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation 👍

I'll be eagerly awaiting for midrange GPUs become APUs selling for $1800-$2000, can't wait 👍
 
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staknhalo said:
Cool 👍

You guys should call the FTC pronto if they dictate how Nvidia sells allowed exports, in China, to the Chinese, in the Chinese consumer market, and if it's even possible then that Nvidia is doing this, if you genuinely care 👍

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation 👍

I'll be eagerly awaiting for midrange GPUs become APUs selling for $1800-$2000, can't wait 👍
Click to expand...

What was the point of arguing if you weren't going to read anything that was shared?

The FTAIA made changes to the Sherman antitrust act, it's main purpose was to improve foreign trade by limiting it's use. But it still allowed the US to apply legal action against companies for actions in foreign markets that have an effect on the US market

Plenty of laws apply to US citizens and businesses for actions that occur overseas.
Patriot Act, civil rights & ada, Foreign corrupt practices act. Hell, you have to pay taxes on income earned overseas, even if the company isn't based in the US.
 
staknhalo said:
Cool 👍

You guys should call the FTC pronto if they dictate how Nvidia sells allowed exports, in China, to the Chinese, in the Chinese consumer market, and if it's even possible then that Nvidia is doing this, if you genuinely care 👍

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation 👍

I'll be eagerly awaiting for midrange GPUs become APUs selling for $1800-$2000, can't wait 👍
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Just FYI, you were the one who brought all of this up in the discussion.
Also, we don't need to do that, as stated above the USA has NVIDIA on a short leash, especially since this has become something which is highly political for the current administration.

That isn't unique to NVIDIA, as Intel, AMD, and many other corpos are in the same boat.
It isn't good or bad, it just is what it is.

staknhalo said:
You guys should call the FTC pronto if they dictate how Nvidia sells allowed exports, in China, to the Chinese, in the Chinese consumer market, or if it will just effect the US market, if it's even possible then that Nvidia is doing this, if you genuinely care 👍

https://www.ftc.gov/enforcement/report-antitrust-violation 👍
Click to expand...
Is there a reason you keep posting this?
 
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