Resolution: Switching to Linux for a Week

[HardOCP News]

As a New Year resolution, the gang at zMogo decided to switch to Linux for a week. The switch didn’t go very well at first but it is getting better the more they get a chance to use it. We spent 30 days with Ubuntu a year ago and really liked it.

To put it softly, installing Ubuntu was hell. I ran into more problems than I ever imagined I would, and for a moment I thought my computer was reduced to a pretty silicon and plastic paperweight. The simplicity I was looking for was not there, and I’m not exactly planning to recommend that my parents replace their Mac OS with Ubuntu any time soon.

 

[pxc]

Ubuntu is great if your system works with everything straight off the disc, or from a hidden or visible menu option. Some common items are ridiculously more complex than it needs to be, like setting up something simple like a monitor and video resolution... and even then it still doesn't work completely right.

I don't mind following a 10 or 20 step guide to get something working from the terminal, but much wiki documentation is still out of date or just plain missing. Peer help isn't much better when vague answers like "it should work" are given by people who have not even tried what is being asked. Installing non-repository software is often a mess. I still don't like it very much since it takes so long to configure something that doesn't fit the easy/automatic case. Another couple of years and Ubuntu should continue to increase Linux distro usability.

 

[ferrisnox]

This is one of the big areas that I think Linux definately needs to improve. Honestly for news and casual users the out of box experience even for Ubuntu can be very jaring/scary. Finding those missing drivers for the networking adapter etc... can be daunting even trying to do an ndis wrapper. Also Ubuntu out of box is pretty damn ugly. I know you can modify the hell out of it to make it pretty, but my parents and common sense tells me you always put your best foot forward so include some decent fucking themes fellas. Generally installing software is a breeze, oh except when you have to enable disabled repositories or for some reason your software doesn't show up.

In my dumb opinion the most important thing in the future of Linux is Windows 7, sink or float it will have more bearing on how well Linux does in my opinion. M$ has to deliver and I'm betting they will.

 

[gaspah]

well i started running gentoo.. and now that the intitial hurdles of setting up remote destkop so i can login from my vista machine, installing a software raid using mdadm, installing wine because the tracker i use doesnt recognise ktorrent client and buggering around to make a streamlined kernel.. took me 3 days to setup.. and thats with minimal software (ftp, torrent, firefox)... its never taken me that long to setup windows and thats including installing about 80gb of software/games...

i doo like the software raid features though. far far more extensive than vista.. but use gentoo as my primary OS.. no thanks

 

[nilepez]

We use ubuntu at work in Virtual Box as a test platform for our *nix code. It generally works well, but when things don't work, it's really painful. It's definitely better than I ever thought Linux would become, but it's still not ready for prime time when it comes to mainstream desktop use. For now, it's still for enthusiasts, people who hate MS/paying for an OS, and IT types.

My guess is it'll be at least 5 years before it gets there....maybe longer.

 

[mrmylanman]

I have used Ubuntu Linux for a very long time (pretty much ever since their first release) and it is by far the easiest Linux distribution I have used, but perhaps I just plain lucked out on hardware compatibility all these years?

 

[Jack Hammer]

Unbuntu's install is a pain, whereas playing with Red Hat's Fedora was much, much less painful.

Don't like one distro? Find another!

 

[nilepez]

Unbuntu's install is a pain, whereas playing with Red Hat's Fedora was much, much less painful.

Don't like one distro? Find another!

A friend at work, who's a linux enthusiast (he runs linux at home and uses windows in Virtual Box when necessary) tried the Fedora live cd for a week or so and preferred it to ubuntu and switched. His laptop became completely unstable....and he spent a day and a half getting ubuntu reinstalled (I was a bit surprised he didn't image his drive before making that change...but then again, I've done stupid stuff like that before).

I don't know if he's gone back to fedora or not....he was heading out ona business trip in a day or 2, so he had get his lappy working before he left....

His laptop is a Toshiba that's less than a year old, so it's neither super new nor ancient.

Your attitude about distros is one I understand and even agree with from an Enthusiast/developer POV, but for normal end users, the distro has to work from day one. Upgrades have to be completely painless and s/w installs need to work and be very intuitive.

I think to make Linux a mainstream OS, you'll need top UI designers involved and/or a benefactor who sponsors HCI R/D.

There are somethings in Ubuntu that I like a lot.....in particular the update all apps updater (though I can see why MS and Apple might not want to do that) the security model and the method of linking files and directories -- why hasn't MS changed the tech underlying shortcuts to mimic *nix on this front?

The UI is improving, but it's still the weakest link.

 

[DanNeely]

MS does have a 3rd party app updater. I'm not sure how it works, but it's prompted me to update 3rd party apps like acrobat reader a few times.

 

[SamuraiInBlack]

My only complaint with Linux is that I could never get WINE/Cedega to work, EVER, for me so I could play my windows games. I researched the hell out of it, tried every damn suggestion I could find, and nothing got it off the ground.

If it did work, I never would have bothered going to XP except maybe, MAYBE to use all my Steam games (as at the time it was not listed that Steam was supported, dunno if it is now). Seriously.

I think if Linux had more gaming compatability, they'd see a bigger marketshare. A much bigger marketshare. A hundred bucks or so less that a gamer has to pay is always a good thing.

 

[firebane]

I've always based this list off of using various linux distros since around 1995.

1) Ubuntu - good for beginning and understanding things and getting your feet wet

2) Debian - is a good step up from ubuntu as it uses the same system but you need to build on it yourself

3) Slackware - for those who like a bit more grit in their diet and really want to understand how things work

4) Gentoo - Lets just say this one isn't for the faint of heart. A lot of Gentoo is loosely based of *nix like FreeBSD and the such and will take a lot more work to get a working system compared to the other 3.

 

[eeyrjmr]

ok I suppose I am slightly blinded, I have been using some linux distro or another for over 10years now and remember the PAIN's that existed in getting drivers for hardware (seriously you kids have it sooo easy these days w.r.t. linux)

That being said things have come along LOADS!!!! for an experiment which for the most part if voluntary (but with alot of corporate backing), the linux-distro experiment is doing great


I'm not saying it is perfect from a linux-newbie point-of-view, far from it
BUT if you have a machine where the hardware is supported (ie Dell's, HP, ACER....) then damb! wack the disk in and it works - or you may need a one-liner to the boot menu of the liveCD just to get around buggy ACPI due to the BIOS - once installed it is fine

if you have a custom machine or a special piece of hardware... it can be a bit iffy and can be pot luck if the distro you chose actually built support for that piece of hardware into their kernel - the dev's can make mistakes you know

IF you custom build then there is load of resources out that to say what hardware is compatible or not - in the 5years I have been custom building I have NEVER had a incompatible piece of hardware

lets put it this way Linux is the ONLY operating system where you can have
64bit kernel AND 64bit Browser AND 64bit java AND 64bit Adobe-Flash

 

[pxc]

lets put it this way Linux is the ONLY operating system where you can have
64bit kernel AND 64bit Browser AND 64bit java AND 64bit Adobe-Flash

64-bit Flash is just in beta and considering how terrible the releases are, nobody is missing much right now. All supported platforms will get 64-bit Flash. The rest are available on all other platforms.

Desktop users don't care about Java anyways. I won't even install that security nightmare on my systems. I'm not missing anything.

 

[firebane]

64-bit Flash is just in beta and considering how terrible the releases are, nobody is missing much right now. All supported platforms will get 64-bit Flash. The rest are available on all other platforms.

Desktop users don't care about Java anyways. I won't even install that security nightmare on my systems. I'm not missing anything.

You actually need java for a few websites.. I personally hate those websites that require java.. but they exist.

 

[kllrnohj]

His install situation was extremely non standard. XP and Vista would have done the exact same thing as Ubuntu did, in that it would have set the MBR of the boot drive to point to his external drive to boot from. Had he not disconnected the drive, however, he would have seen that Ubuntu added menu options to boot to Windows for him. He didn't need to do anything other than hit the down arrow a couple times and hit enter to get back to Windows.

So in this case a major part of his problems was user error and the user thinking he knew the way to solve a problem that didn't exist (the problem being how to boot windows).

As for the locked X, I'm curious what he was installing Ubuntu on. I believe the default is still for Ubuntu to use the VESA driver when booting up, which should work with anything that supports the VESA spec (which includes all ATI, nvidia, and Intel cards)

 

[pxc]

You actually need java for a few websites..

I have never run into one that requires Java. I don't doubt that some companies still use applets internally and you might find some service-based sites that use web start, but I haven't run into any. Care to name some common sites that require Java that don't also have an alternative (example: trend micro online scan)?

I don't like Java, but I really haven't run into any sites in years that used it. The last software I used that installed Java was around 3-4 years ago and I haven't really seen any since.

 

[firebane]

I have never run into one that requires Java. I don't doubt that some companies still use applets internally and you might find some service-based sites that use web start, but I haven't run into any. Care to name some common sites that require Java that don't also have an alternative (example: trend micro online scan)?

I don't like Java, but I really haven't run into any sites in years that used it. The last software I used that installed Java was around 3-4 years ago and I haven't really seen any since.

Few government sites in Canada require it.. as I said I don't know why.

 

[AVT]

Which is why I prefer openSUSE. Anytime you ever need to configure something, you do it through YaST.

 

[Melodis]

I've tried moving to Linux as my primary OS about 10 times over the past 2 years. Every time I try I'm always limited by:

DRIVERS!
Protected mode video drivers - If you like the latest & greatest, it takes forever for a good video driver to be released. My last experience trying to find drivers for the 3870's nearly 6 months after they came out was a joke. I think ATI finally released good drivers for the 3870's, but I dropped Linux again due to #3 in my list.
Sound card support - even if you can find drivers for it, it's a coin flip if you'll ever hear anything. Sound Blaster support just released a seriously bad alpha driver which doesn't even support ALSA. After I gave up on Ubuntu and Sound Blaster, I moved to SUSE, which had support for my onboard sound card in version 10, but darn the luck they dropped support for it in version 11 (which happens to be what I downloaded). Who'd have ever thought the latest and greatest version wouldn't work with the latest and greatest hardware.

*sigh*

Call me crazy, but I WANT to like and use Linux. Strangely enough, Linux worked perfect on my Dell XPS Gen 2 up until I sold it. But I have had no luck with it since then.

 

[kllrnohj]

DRIVERS!
Protected mode video drivers - If you like the latest & greatest, it takes forever for a good video driver to be released. My last experience trying to find drivers for the 3870's nearly 6 months after they came out was a joke. I think ATI finally released good drivers for the 3870's, but I dropped Linux again due to #3 in my list.

This problem is thankfully getting fixed. ATI is releasing drivers at the same time as the windows counter-parts, and support for the 48xx series was available the same day it was for Windows. I'm not sure about the nvidia side of things (as I don't have an nvidia card so I don't care), but I do believe they are also supporting new cards quickly after they hit the market.

Sound card support - even if you can find drivers for it, it's a coin flip if you'll ever hear anything. Sound Blaster support just released a seriously bad alpha driver which doesn't even support ALSA. After I gave up on Ubuntu and Sound Blaster, I moved to SUSE, which had support for my onboard sound card in version 10, but darn the luck they dropped support for it in version 11 (which happens to be what I downloaded). Who'd have ever thought the latest and greatest version wouldn't work with the latest and greatest hardware.

ALSA has drivers for everything except the X-Fi series afaik. It should work out of the box, although a couple times I have noticed that the audio defaults to being muted on the PCM, meaning no sound even if the master volume is turned up. (If you try Ubuntu again open the Volume Mixer and you'll see what I mean). Also, if you have two sound cards (onboard + a sound blaster), quite often the onboard ends up as the default. There should be a drop down that allows you to select which audio device you want somewhere in the audio section (haven't had to use it for years, sorry I can't be more specific )

Call me crazy, but I WANT to like and use Linux. Strangely enough, Linux worked perfect on my Dell XPS Gen 2 up until I sold it. But I have had no luck with it since then.

Well give it another try. Just fire up the 8.10 live CD and see if audio and such are working. Doesn't take much disk space, you only need 10gb or so to try it out

 

[kac77]

His install situation was extremely non standard. XP and Vista would have done the exact same thing as Ubuntu did, in that it would have set the MBR of the boot drive to point to his external drive to boot from. Had he not disconnected the drive, however, he would have seen that Ubuntu added menu options to boot to Windows for him. He didn't need to do anything other than hit the down arrow a couple times and hit enter to get back to Windows.

So in this case a major part of his problems was user error and the user thinking he knew the way to solve a problem that didn't exist (the problem being how to boot windows).

As for the locked X, I'm curious what he was installing Ubuntu on. I believe the default is still for Ubuntu to use the VESA driver when booting up, which should work with anything that supports the VESA spec (which includes all ATI, nvidia, and Intel cards)

I agree. Definitely not a standard install and he would have got the same MBR error with any other OS because it would be looking for a partition that wasn't there. I agree as well those VESA problems are strange.

Although this threw me for a loop:

I’m greeted by a colourful and clear menu, which gives me a series of options for installing. One of them is to try Ubuntu without installing, which is a clever idea for the creators to include, but I decide not to opt for it; my plan is to install Linux as an alternative to Windows and use it consistently, so there’s no point in trying it just yet when I will presumably have it installed in its entirety soon.

Do yourself a favor try it before installing it.

 

[Ocean]

i tried ubuntu about a week ago.

i gave up after the first reboot rendered it unbootable.

 

[djBon2112]

Wow... the writer of this article seems to know jack shit about a number of basic computer concepts such as boot loaders and active partitions (and, yes, those ARE basic concepts). He should just stick to his pre-packaged Mac and let us real computer users use our excellent operating system.

And, for the record, I have NEVER had a bad experience installing Ubuntu on anything (laptop, desktop, server), while I've never had anything BUT headaches trying to install Windows (XP and Vista) on those devices.

 

[kac77]

And, for the record, I have NEVER had a bad experience installing Ubuntu on anything (laptop, desktop, server), while I've never had anything BUT headaches trying to install Windows (XP and Vista) on those devices.

I wouldn't say "never" , as I've had some problems from time to time installing Ubuntu whenever I deal with crappy CD-ROM drives (really old Samsungs) or poorly implemented ACPI. Overall though once you get it installed usually you're golden.

 

[Melodis]

This problem is thankfully getting fixed. ATI is releasing drivers at the same time as the windows counter-parts, and support for the 48xx series was available the same day it was for Windows. I'm not sure about the nvidia side of things (as I don't have an nvidia card so I don't care), but I do believe they are also supporting new cards quickly after they hit the market.



ALSA has drivers for everything except the X-Fi series afaik. It should work out of the box, although a couple times I have noticed that the audio defaults to being muted on the PCM, meaning no sound even if the master volume is turned up. (If you try Ubuntu again open the Volume Mixer and you'll see what I mean). Also, if you have two sound cards (onboard + a sound blaster), quite often the onboard ends up as the default. There should be a drop down that allows you to select which audio device you want somewhere in the audio section (haven't had to use it for years, sorry I can't be more specific )



Well give it another try. Just fire up the 8.10 live CD and see if audio and such are working. Doesn't take much disk space, you only need 10gb or so to try it out

I do try Linux pretty regularly. The Live CD's are awesome but still so many issues. I'll be giving it a try again in the next month or two.

 

[BladeVenom]

I think Linux is great, except when you want to play the latest games.

 

[Melodis]

Wow... the writer of this article seems to know jack shit about a number of basic computer concepts such as boot loaders and active partitions (and, yes, those ARE basic concepts). He should just stick to his pre-packaged Mac and let us real computer users use our excellent operating system.

And, for the record, I have NEVER had a bad experience installing Ubuntu on anything (laptop, desktop, server), while I've never had anything BUT headaches trying to install Windows (XP and Vista) on those devices.

Sorry, but I disagree. The average computer user knows nothing about boot loaders, partitions (active or otherwise), and many other basic concepts us computer geeks take for granted. Most people can't navigate through a DOS like interface to save their lives. This is one of the primary reasons Linux is still 'enthusiast only'. Get confronted with an eronious error message, lock up, or snag and it's back to Windows. Even with the community support behind Linux, it's too much for most people to try and learn how to fix the problem because they don't understand the lingo.

SUDO? What's that?
Yast? Kazhuntite.
Ubuntu? Isn't that what they make Pepto Bismol for?

 

[kac77]

Sorry, but I disagree. The average computer user knows nothing about boot loaders, partitions (active or otherwise), and many other basic concepts us computer geeks take for granted. Most people can't navigate through a DOS like interface to save their lives. This is one of the primary reasons Linux is still 'enthusiast only'. Get confronted with an eronious error message, lock up, or snag and it's back to Windows. Even with the community support behind Linux, it's too much for most people to try and learn how to fix the problem because they don't understand the lingo.

SUDO? What's that?
Yast? Kazhuntite.
Ubuntu? Isn't that what they make Pepto Bismol for?

That's exactly what djBon was trying to say. This article writer, since he's writing a technical article, should be competent enough to understand installing an OS, which over writes the MBR, and is now looking for a partition that's no longer there, will give you errors. Whether it's Windows, Mac, or Linux, doing something like that can get you into trouble very quickly. FIXBOOT / FIXMBR isn't there for show. They are there to fix the same exact problem that this guy was going through.

How many dual booting grandmothers do you know? Most average users buy prepackaged computers with all the junk already installed and hopefully tested. In general they don't resize partitions, or setup up dualboot boot loaders.

If anyone is planning to install a new OS they need to do their homework. PERIOD. Even in the land of Windows, try installing Vista on laptops built around Windows XP and see if every laptop button / sound will work. It won't. Same thing goes here. Try to pick hardware that you know is compatible and if the OS allows you to try out the software without changing your hard drive configuration, then try it out before installing.

 

[djBon2112]

I wouldn't say "never" , as I've had some problems from time to time installing Ubuntu whenever I deal with crappy CD-ROM drives (really old Samsungs) or poorly implemented ACPI. Overall though once you get it installed usually you're golden.

Perhaps, but I like to use shiny new equipment

And @Melodis, I agree with you, but the author of this article is trying to sound like someone who knows what he's doing when he doesn't.

 

[Melodis]

Perhaps, but I like to use shiny new equipment

And @Melodis, I agree with you, but the author of this article is trying to sound like someone who knows what he's doing when he doesn't.

I didn't get that impression at all. He sounds like an average joe that knows enough about computers to get himself into trouble with Linux.

But to each his own.

 

[nilepez]

MS does have a 3rd party app updater. I'm not sure how it works, but it's prompted me to update 3rd party apps like acrobat reader a few times.

I'm aware of Secunia, but that's it. They occasionally offer updates for my Graphics cards, but it's not as comprehensive as what I seein Ubuntu.

With that said, for MS to do that, they'd have to test every single update. It'd be slow, cumbersome and expensive. I think the best solution is to use secunia and patch whenever it notifies you.

I don't know how they recover their development costs on that app (unless businesses are using the paid version), but it's on my MVP list.

 

[nilepez]

Wow... the writer of this article seems to know jack shit about a number of basic computer concepts such as boot loaders and active partitions (and, yes, those ARE basic concepts). He should just stick to his pre-packaged Mac and let us real computer users use our excellent operating system.

And, for the record, I have NEVER had a bad experience installing Ubuntu on anything (laptop, desktop, server), while I've never had anything BUT headaches trying to install Windows (XP and Vista) on those devices.

If your POV prevails, Linux will forever remain a niche OS on the desktop.

 

[kllrnohj]

I didn't get that impression at all. He sounds like an average joe that knows enough about computers to get himself into trouble with Linux.

But to each his own.

Agreed, this is exactly the problem. He thinks he knows what he is doing (when he doesn't), which gets him into more trouble than if he would just assume he doesn't know anything. For example, he assumed to get back to windows he needed to disconnect his external, when in reality leaving the external connected (ie, doing nothing) was the correct approach since Ubuntu nicely assumes that you want to boot to the other installed OSes (which Windows, for some absurd reason, still doesn't).

 

[kac77]

Agreed, this is exactly the problem. He thinks he knows what he is doing (when he doesn't), which gets him into more trouble than if he would just assume he doesn't know anything. For example, he assumed to get back to windows he needed to disconnect his external, when in reality leaving the external connected (ie, doing nothing) was the correct approach since Ubuntu nicely assumes that you want to boot to the other installed OSes (which Windows, for some absurd reason, still doesn't).

Agreed. Another example would be a friend of mine who wanted to try out Ubuntu. Everything installed ok, and then he decided that he wanted to enable 3-D acceleration with compiz. So he immediately hopped online and started following a guide. Thing is you don't need a guide. He spent something like 2 hours compiling his own driver and following that guide instead of clicking a few buttons within the System Menu. After I talked to him, I told him "there's a gui for that you know."

 

[djBon2112]

If your POV prevails, Linux will forever remain a niche OS on the desktop.

I used to think this. Then I really stared using Linux, and started loving its power and flexibility, and I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather it stay a "niche" OS if it means it keeps those features. Sure, I'd like application support, and it is coming as more users join, but frankly, if Ubuntu isn't dumbed down enough for your average user, I really don't want Linux to stoop that low.

 

[brucedeluxe169]

I used to think this. Then I really stared using Linux, and started loving its power and flexibility, and I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather it stay a "niche" OS if it means it keeps those features. Sure, I'd like application support, and it is coming as more users join, but frankly, if Ubuntu isn't dumbed down enough for your average user, I really don't want Linux to stoop that low.

+1

linux is evolving at an amazing pace, and, frankly...is becoming an amazing platform

 

[Zellio2009]

A week?

I'm hoping networks, gui, sound and video card works properly, otherwise they'll spend 3 weeks making it work >_<

If it all does work, they'll probably really enjoy it.

 

[Zellio2009]

I used to think this. Then I really stared using Linux, and started loving its power and flexibility, and I've come to the conclusion that I'd rather it stay a "niche" OS if it means it keeps those features. Sure, I'd like application support, and it is coming as more users join, but frankly, if Ubuntu isn't dumbed down enough for your average user, I really don't want Linux to stoop that low.

I don't get people like you who think like this. A majority of people who complain aren't asking for back rubs, it's people who understand linux quite well and can't get it to work due to non-standard components.

If you guys can't please people who don't have your hardware, I'd hate to think how you'd do to the real crowd.

 

[kac77]

I don't get people like you who think like this. A majority of people who complain aren't asking for back rubs, it's people who understand linux quite well and can't get it to work due to non-standard components.

If you guys can't please people who don't have your hardware, I'd hate to think how you'd do to the real crowd.

The problem is that most of the people complaining about it here, haven't come here, to ask for help. So far I've helped quite a few people even when their questions were insanely easy. What I have a hard time with are people who expect more than what even windows would allow them to do because they know no better.

A perfect example is that recently someone was asking questions about their raid configuration and moving it to another controller under linux. He/she doesn't know that different raid controllers stripe and just generally talk in different languages to one another. In the enterprise world we know this, but he/she has no clue and is probably more than ready to blame the OS or whatever. I will help this person but without him/her understanding this they probably aren't going to like the solution I give them.

It has nothing to do with the OS , and it has everything to do with having a fundamental understanding of Raid and how it works.

 

[Zellio2009]

The problem is that most of the people complaining about it here, haven't come here, to ask for help. So far I've helped quite a few people even when their questions were insanely easy. What I have a hard time with are people who expect more than what even windows would allow them to do because they know no better.

A perfect example is that recently someone was asking questions about their raid configuration and moving it to another controller under linux. He/she doesn't know that different raid controllers stripe and just generally talk in different languages to one another. In the enterprise world we know this, but he/she has no clue and is probably more than ready to blame the OS or whatever. I will help this person but without him/her understanding this they probably aren't going to like the solution I give them.

It has nothing to do with the OS , and it has everything to do with having a fundamental understanding of Raid and how it works.

The problem is most issues that the Linux devs refuse to fix don't bother those types, it bothers anyone who doesn't have the Linux devs hardware.

Hell, if they didn't scare people away who had different hardware, I'd be inclined to believe those people would halp program linux to those components.