Reddit Declares Itself A ‘Government’

[Retronym]

A private toll road is being considered where I live. As the plan looks now, no one is going to be driving on it for free. Indeed the rumored price of the toll has a LOT of people going ape over the project. At any rate, as public money runs dry and with the need for more roads and maintenance increasing, I expect that there will be a lot more for-profit private companies in the roads business. But as private ownership and serving of roads continues to grow, I wouldn't think those strong arm tactics and mafia influence wouldn't find any less of a home than in the public sector. It's not like people would have a lot of choice in paying whatever the price or not getting to work. And if it's a bitch to find competition in the cable business, try finding another road or bridge provider.

The only way private roads will get better is when there are more of them, and failure in the marketplace. We will not have efficient distribution of capital or other resources until there is failure.

 

[DeathFromBelow]

I'm a 31 year old who makes six figures.

*In worthless crypto-currency

 

[Red Falcon]

lol

All that talk, and that's the best you've got?
Well, at least you didn't deny it.

 

[Retronym]

heh

i have two whopping bitcoins at the moment.

i'm a capitalist. its always changing.

 

[Retronym]

All that talk, and that's the best you've got?
Well, at least you didn't deny it.

Well, I am a capitalist...as advertised.
I'm an anarchist...as advertised.
I'm an asshole...as advertised.

But I don't worship money. Its simply a unit of exchange.
I suppose my religion would be the philosophy of freedom.

And there have never been, nor will there ever be, a legitimate government. Anywhere.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Absolutely, but in recognizing that tendency, isn't it evident that those structures eventually grow to a point where they are a danger to the majority? If history has taught us anything, it's that empires eventually grow corrupt and die. We're taught this in school. Why, then, is it so unfathomable to some that either the United States is approaching this point, or that we could survive with less? Personally, I consider it a form of Stockholm Syndrome. We continually reassure each other in society that change is hard, but that we should try it anyway...but then we don't put that philosophy into practice in scaling back government. Although, I will admit, I think the recent backlash against the militarization of police is a damned good first step.

Wow, I'm sorry for not replying to you. I don't disagree that governments eventually can and do stop working for the people they're supposed to support. That happens and ugly things can result from it. I don't personally think the US is anywhere close to that point yet or will be so in the near future without some really disruptive outside events putting pressure on it that causes a lot more disruption. People who are comfortable want stuff to stay that way and they won't act against a system that is only somewhat broken or causes minor discomfort. They'll wait until it gets far worse than it is now before there's enough popular support for things to change dramatically and yeah, you might be able to compare that to Stockholm Syndrome. There are similar elements.

However, suppose it all gets overthrown and torn down. What happens next? People reorganize. They make new social structures and express order in new ways because they don't like chaos. Over the course of time they end up being subjected to or forming a government. That government may or may not merge with or get absorbed into another government. Eventually, it falls apart and guess what emerges in its place -- government of some form under some name. While the terms might be nuanced and the concepts may feel like new ideas to those that create them, they're really just people getting together for mutual benefit, mainly by promoting stability.

So why try to tear it all down if it's just going to eventually make more of the same? Is it really that important to mess everything up for everyone (even people who might think things are okay) just to start over again on the exact same path? I could think of better stuff to do with my time.

 

[Retronym]

Wow, I'm sorry for not replying to you. I don't disagree that governments eventually can and do stop working for the people they're supposed to support. That happens and ugly things can result from it. I don't personally think the US is anywhere close to that point yet or will be so in the near future without some really disruptive outside events putting pressure on it that causes a lot more disruption. People who are comfortable want stuff to stay that way and they won't act against a system that is only somewhat broken or causes minor discomfort. They'll wait until it gets far worse than it is now before there's enough popular support for things to change dramatically and yeah, you might be able to compare that to Stockholm Syndrome. There are similar elements.

However, suppose it all gets overthrown and torn down. What happens next? People reorganize. They make new social structures and express order in new ways because they don't like chaos. Over the course of time they end up being subjected to or forming a government. That government may or may not merge with or get absorbed into another government. Eventually, it falls apart and guess what emerges in its place -- government of some form under some name. While the terms might be nuanced and the concepts may feel like new ideas to those that create them, they're really just people getting together for mutual benefit, mainly by promoting stability.

So why try to tear it all down if it's just going to eventually make more of the same? Is it really that important to mess everything up for everyone (even people who might think things are okay) just to start over again on the exact same path? I could think of better stuff to do with my time.

Six months.

Give me six months without an oppressive government and I will never have to work again.

 

[Red Falcon]

And there have never been, nor will there ever be, a legitimate government. Anywhere.

Oh, I think when the United States of America was first formed, it was a very legitimate government, with the thoughts and focus of the people and their well-being in mind.
But, again, corruption and greed ruined that within the first 100 years, and, well, look where 'Murica is at today.

Corporations are no different, they are just tiny government bodies acting independently.
If a government was a final boss, corporations would be the mini-bosses.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Six months.

Give me six months without an oppressive government and I will never have to work again.

There are lots of islands in the Pacific where you could live for six months without a government presence. If you really think you have what it takes, I say go for it and let us know how it all turns out when it's over.

 

[Red Falcon]

*In worthless crypto-currency

As compared to worthless fiat currency, not based on anything (gold, resources, etc), and what every nation uses in the world?
Oh yeah, paper money is soooo much better.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

As compared to worthless fiat currency, not based on anything (gold, resources, etc), and what every nation uses in the world?
Oh yeah, paper money is soooo much better.

Paper money has cool art on it though!

 

[Red Falcon]

People who are comfortable want stuff to stay that way and they won't act against a system that is only somewhat broken or causes minor discomfort. They'll wait until it gets far worse than it is now before there's enough popular support for things to change dramatically and yeah, you might be able to compare that to Stockholm Syndrome.

You hit the nail, right on the head.
Unfortunately, for people like this, by the time they "revolt", it will be far too late.

 

[Climber]

And there have never been, nor will there ever be, a legitimate government. Anywhere.

Of course this is wrong. There are numerous legitmate governments. Because you don't agree doesn't make them any less legitmate.

What in your mind would constitute a legitimate government.

 

[heatlesssun]

The only way private roads will get better is when there are more of them, and failure in the marketplace. We will not have efficient distribution of capital or other resources until there is failure.

There's tons of conventional failure in the market place everyday. Systemic and catastrophic failures are another matter because of the enormous amount of collateral damage they cause. It's easy to say "Just let it all fail." It's a much harder thing to live with the consequences. A hole can be dug so deep that it's impossible to climb out of it.

 

[Red Falcon]

Paper money has cool art on it though!

^ You tell me that isn't the ancient aliens guy!

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

You hit the nail, right on the head.
Unfortunately, for people like this, by the time they "revolt", it will be far too late.

That's why I'd really like to see people work with the system to fix problems before they get out of hand. It's probably totally delusional on a whole other level for me to want some other version of utopia where people calmly address problems and other people listen, then they figure out a way to fix those problems together, but I think a little more of that can keep the things we do have already from getting out of control for many, many more years.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

http://www.mypivots.com/images/banknotes/jpy-1000-japanese-yens-2.jpg[

^ You tell me that isn't the ancient aliens guy!

http://www.quickmeme.com/img/1f/1f42d68180d40ae192938d04b31f2499f1f57641ea77fd44478bd56c37da3b92.jpg

That is so his hair! Who knew Japan had the History Channel's alien guy long before we did. Come to think of it, they get everything first...anime, phones that work at checkout to pay for stuff, vocaloids... *pouts*

 

[Red Falcon]

That's why I'd really like to see people work with the system to fix problems before they get out of hand. It's probably totally delusional on a whole other level for me to want some other version of utopia where people calmly address problems and other people listen, then they figure out a way to fix those problems together, but I think a little more of that can keep the things we do have already from getting out of control for many, many more years.

Until people get out of their comfort zones, they won't budge and nothing will happen.
I eventually see this leading into the Matrix.

Just keep everyone happy with a massive VR pacification simulator.
Heck, that's all reality TV does right now, anyways.

 

[Red Falcon]

That is so his hair! Who knew Japan had the History Channel's alien guy long before we did. Come to think of it, they get everything first...anime, phones that work at checkout to pay for stuff, vocaloids... *pouts*

This thread has all of the proper ingredients: anime, Microsoft, cats...
It's the perfect concoction for one of our classic 2012-style Microsoft threads!

heatlesssun, no doubt, will be pleased.

 

[m heisty]

CreepyUncleGoogle just an FYI you have to pay a tax to the USA in order to renounce your citizenship. So its not free.

 

[Retronym]

There's tons of conventional failure in the market place everyday. Systemic and catastrophic failures are another matter because of the enormous amount of collateral damage they cause. It's easy to say "Just let it all fail." It's a much harder thing to live with the consequences. A hole can be dug so deep that it's impossible to climb out of it.

I'm specifically talking about roads. The private contractors that make them now, by and large, are allowed to fail. They are public roads.

Make them private, many will fail, and the next guy will improve upon them or fail. ....Progress!

 

[Draxanoth]

All this talk about government is hilarious. People are using roads and bridges to justify gajillions of dollars in wasted subsidization of failing industries, warfare, and welfare? Seriously? One is absolutely critical to infrastructure, the rest is waste. And the big government folks wonder why no one takes them seriously...

 

[heatlesssun]

I'm specifically talking about roads. The private contractors that make them now, by and large, are allowed to fail. They are public roads.

Make them private, many will fail, and the next guy will improve upon them or fail. ....Progress!

A road can't fail in the conventional business sense. The road doesn't go away. If it's a busy road, shutting it down could range from impractical to almost impossible regardless of ownership . Of course a road or bridge can physically fail, and that certainly would put a TON of pressure on the owner, especially if there is loss of life.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

http://cache.desktopnexus.com/thumbnails/478690-bigthumbnail.jpg

This thread has all of the proper ingredients: anime, Microsoft, cats...
It's the perfect concoction for one of our classic 2012-style Microsoft threads!

heatlesssun, no doubt, will be pleased.

Aw, poor heatless. He's been doing great lately. But you're right, this thread needs more cats! Or at least a kitten. I can help with that since I have a sleepy kitten who was nice enough to pose for me just now.

CreepyUncleGoogle just an FYI you have to pay a tax to the USA in order to renounce your citizenship. So its not free.

I didn't know that. I can't imagine that it's hideously expensive though or that big of a deal. I mean, if you're living in someplace like Turkgeorgiatlantastan, who in the US is really gonna care?

 

[Stiletto]

However, suppose it all gets overthrown and torn down. What happens next? People reorganize. They make new social structures and express order in new ways because they don't like chaos. Over the course of time they end up being subjected to or forming a government. That government may or may not merge with or get absorbed into another government. Eventually, it falls apart and guess what emerges in its place -- government of some form under some name. While the terms might be nuanced and the concepts may feel like new ideas to those that create them, they're really just people getting together for mutual benefit, mainly by promoting stability.

So why try to tear it all down if it's just going to eventually make more of the same?

For the same reasons any unjust regime is torn down...because it's creating more misery than happiness. Because it is out of the control of the people it affects. Because it has a small group of figures taking advantage of the masses and punishing those who suggest change is necessary.

Now, I'm not saying all these are necessarily true in the United States, but your argument is circular logic that just keeps feeding itself. Revolutionary thought, as a concept, is patently irrational. Because of advanced civilization, "reason" is now defined within societies. If the Emperor has no clothes, then as a matter of reason it must be normal for him not to wear clothes, and we must accept it. This level of societal rationalization stretches is noticed all the time in flippant passing, but it's also become so common we rarely take a real hard look at it. We've come to accept a sort of mass passive hallucination, where numerous parts of our society don't make sense, but we're so busied with our various pursuits and goals that we haven't the time to address them.

This may, possibly, be the most interesting tyranny of all: the tyranny of being endlessly distracted and/or occupied. Why try to remove the chains when they're attached to a comfy chair and electronic device of choice?

 

[TwistedAegis]

I'm specifically talking about roads. The private contractors that make them now, by and large, are allowed to fail. They are public roads.

Make them private, many will fail, and the next guy will improve upon them or fail. ....Progress!

Could you please point to any country, ever, where a national road system, rail system, electricity transmission, etc, was ever built by the private sector in such a manner you describe, and ended up with results at least as good as a current OECD country?

 

[Climber]

I'm specifically talking about roads. The private contractors that make them now, by and large, are allowed to fail. They are public roads.

Make them private, many will fail, and the next guy will improve upon them or fail. ....Progress!

Except it doesn't work like that. City of greeley was 125 million behind on road infra structure. Guess how many people stepped up to fix the roads in 8 years?

Zero.

Local park burnt down and the cost was 3 million to repair and update. Guess how many people stepped up to fix that?

Zero.

Local school needed a new roof and insulation. Cost 10 million.

Zero.

The list goes on.

When I lived in a small farm Town in California and something went wrong everyone pitched in to help but generally the larger the community and the larger the project the less help one gets which is backwards.

Be nice if your version of humanity and government worked but history bears out the repeated failures of it over and over again.

This thread alone proves your philosophy doesn't work on a large scale unless you enforce it. Once you step in to enforce a percieved wrong or threat you are now in a totalitarian dictatorship.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

For the same reasons any unjust regime is torn down...because it's creating more misery than happiness. Because it is out of the control of the people it affects. Because it has a small group of figures taking advantage of the masses and punishing those who suggest change is necessary.

Now, I'm not saying all these are necessarily true in the United States, but your argument is circular logic that just keeps feeding itself. Revolutionary thought, as a concept, is patently irrational. Because of advanced civilization, "reason" is now defined within societies. If the Emperor has no clothes, then as a matter of reason it must be normal for him not to wear clothes, and we must accept it. This level of societal rationalization stretches is noticed all the time in flippant passing, but it's also become so common we rarely take a real hard look at it. We've come to accept a sort of mass passive hallucination, where numerous parts of our society don't make sense, but we're so busied with our various pursuits and goals that we haven't the time to address them.

This may, possibly, be the most interesting tyranny of all: the tyranny of being endlessly distracted and/or occupied. Why try to remove the chains when they're attached to a comfy chair and electronic device of choice?

Who decides if a regime is unjust though? What constitutes too much misery? Is that decided by a majority? Is it determined by someone or a group of someones mighty enough to overcome the regime that also has the will to do take action?

The residents (some of them) in the US decided to do that exact thing to the nice people in the UK a long time ago and for many years afterwards, we unjustly demonized the British as evil and their royalty as awful. We still teach something along those lines in school. Victors write history after the fact, but was it really right to have done that? Were things actually that bad for people? Couldn't we have just done what those wonderful people in Canada did and peacefully part ways without all the shooting and killing or would that have messed up Mel Gibson starring in The Patriot too much?

Anyhow, what I'm trying to say is that after stuff does get messed up, of course the victors are going to tilt things as much as possible in their favor that what they did was a good thing, but they'll also sweep the bad stuff like the loss of life and the disruptions it caused under the carpet (or put a positive spin on getting killed in the name of the new national order). It all just doesn't make sense to do when it's possible to hug everyone and try to work really hard a fixing stuff without revolutions. Revolutions and revolt only make a mess of everything before it all returns to the steady state where there will inevitably be people who are disappointed with their current situation and want change. It fixes nothing about the constants of human nature.

 

[Climber]

This may, possibly, be the most interesting tyranny of all: the tyranny of being endlessly distracted and/or occupied. Why try to remove the chains when they're attached to a comfy chair and electronic device of choice?

Rome and Greece as well as China all went through this same thought process. Old hat in a new society is all.

 

[Red Falcon]

Aw, poor heatless. He's been doing great lately. But you're right, this thread needs more cats! Or at least a kitten. I can help with that since I have a sleepy kitten who was nice enough to pose for me just now.

http://i58.tinypic.com/2nb7ccn.jpg[IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Ha! That's great!
The cat looked at this thread and was like zzzzzz. :D

And yes, heatlesssun has been great. :cool:

 

[heatlesssun]

This may, possibly, be the most interesting tyranny of all: the tyranny of being endlessly distracted and/or occupied. Why try to remove the chains when they're attached to a comfy chair and electronic device of choice?

I find this notion interesting. If one is struggling financially and has to bust butt to make a living but isn't, don't many call those people lazy? Isn't everyone supposed to be self-reliant and self-sufficient and doesn't that typically require the bulk of most peoples' time and energy.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Ha! That's great!
The cat looked at this thread and was like zzzzzz.

And yes, heatlesssun has been great.

Who could blame her? She's been such a lazyball lately though. I think it's she's in another growth spurt since she's only 4 months old now. I found her all sad and abandoned at less than a month old, belly crawling and lost from her mommy and litter. I think she's from one of the local farms, but the nearest one is a mile or two away and I have no idea how she got so far from her litter if that's true. Anyhow when she's feeling energetic, she's such a brat. My poor hands and feet get chomped and scratched even though she has tons of kitty toys, but who can get upset at such kyootness?

 

[Red Falcon]

Who could blame her? She's been such a lazyball lately though. I think it's she's in another growth spurt since she's only 4 months old now. I found her all sad and abandoned at less than a month old, belly crawling and lost from her mommy and litter. I think she's from one of the local farms, but the nearest one is a mile or two away and I have no idea how she got so far from her litter if that's true. Anyhow when she's feeling energetic, she's such a brat. My poor hands and feet get chomped and scratched even though she has tons of kitty toys, but who can get upset at such kyootness?

Well, if that's true, then this cat is going to always want lots of food.
A year from now, this will be the cat:

You know, if people are so corrupt, then why not have the world run by a supercomputer that is secretly controlled by a cat.
I, for one, am ready for our robot-cat overlords:

Hell yeah!

 

[DeathFromBelow]

As compared to worthless fiat currency, not based on anything (gold, resources, etc), and what every nation uses in the world?
Oh yeah, paper money is soooo much better.

I just bought groceries yesterday with my worthless fiat money. I don't think I'd get much if I showed up at Walmart or wherever and tried to pay with gold bars or bitcoins.

Back when Ron Paul was a thing I bought into the gold bug arguments, but over time I've come to the conclusion that it's effectively a marketing buzzword for that crowd. It gets passed around libertarian circles, but nobody really has anything more than a vague understanding of the economics behind it all. The fact is that tying your money to an arbitrary mineral resource does not create stability. Gold only has value because people say it has value, just like fiat money. How is backing a currency with a resource any safer than backing it with a government? The total value of the United States is over 100 trillion dollars. The total value of all the gold ever mined is something like 8 or 9 trillion in current USD. Neither is likely to tank any time soon, but if the US did your gold wouldn't be worth much anyway. With my 'worthless' fiat government-backed dollars I don't have to worry about significant fluctuations in the day-to-day value of my money. There's a slow, steady rate of inflation that prevents hoarding and reduces the cost of credit (no more deflation panics like we had every decade or two in the good old days of the gold standard).

Bitcoin is even worse than gold. Rampant deflation driven by speculation killed whatever bitcoin economy there was, then when prices got too high and mining became unprofitable people just started making their own alternative crypto currencies to mine. Where's the stability there? Crypto-coins are a hobby, not a currency.

 

[CreepyUncleGoogle]

Well, if that's true, then this cat is going to always want lots of food.
A year from now, this will be the cat:

http://static.neatorama.com/images/2005/fat-cat.jpg

Yikes, I hope not! I don't mind if she turns into sorta a chunk, but I don't want her to get to unhealthy. She needs to live like forever so I have someone to keep me company on the couch when I'm reading a book.

You know, if people are so corrupt, then why not have the world run by a supercomputer that is secretly controlled by a cat.
I, for one, am ready for our robot-cat overlords:

http://www.obeythepurebreed.com/images/workers_meow_magnet.jpg

Hell yeah!

http://i.imgur.com/f01kWyS.jpg

I'd vote for Chairman Meow and the kitty supercomputer! Kitties would make the most awesome overlords with all the cute purrs and unpredictable freaking out which ends in clawing and scratching. Or maybe the burning with lasers from kitty robotic exoskeleton mecha...hmmm.

 

[heatlesssun]

I just bought groceries yesterday with my worthless fiat money. I don't think I'd get much if I showed up at Walmart or wherever and tried to pay with gold bars or bitcoins.

Back when Ron Paul was a thing I bought into the gold bug arguments, but over time I've come to the conclusion that it's effectively a marketing buzzword for that crowd. It gets passed around libertarian circles, but nobody really has anything more than a vague understanding of the economics behind it all. The fact is that tying your money to an arbitrary mineral resource does not create stability. Gold only has value because people say it has value, just like fiat money. How is backing a currency with a resource any safer than backing it with a government? The total value of the United States is over 100 trillion dollars. The total value of all the gold ever mined is something like 8 or 9 trillion in current USD. Neither is likely to tank any time soon, but if the US did your gold wouldn't be worth much anyway. With my 'worthless' fiat government-backed dollars I don't have to worry about significant fluctuations in the day-to-day value of my money. There's a slow, steady rate of inflation that prevents hoarding and reduces the cost of credit (no more deflation panics like we had every decade or two in the good old days of the gold standard).

Bitcoin is even worse than gold. Rampant deflation driven by speculation killed whatever bitcoin economy there was, then when prices got too high and mining became unprofitable people just started making their own alternative crypto currencies to mine. Where's the stability there? Crypto-coins are a hobby, not a currency.

Using rare substances as currency is just an ancient tradition as it is the easiest way to control money supply. I guess the idea of the gold standard by those that support it still is that simply being able to print money causes inflation and other economic ills. Of course, as an economy grows, circulation of currency would have to increase as well.

At any rate, what's used as currency isn't nearly as important as the faith in that currency. Gold probably wouldn't be much more if any more stable as a currency in a apocalyptic scenario considering it can't be used for food or fuel though it is physically resilient.

 

[Red Falcon]

I just bought groceries yesterday with my worthless fiat money. I don't think I'd get much if I showed up at Walmart or wherever and tried to pay with gold bars or bitcoins.

Back when Ron Paul was a thing I bought into the gold bug arguments, but over time I've come to the conclusion that it's effectively a marketing buzzword for that crowd. It gets passed around libertarian circles, but nobody really has anything more than a vague understanding of the economics behind it all. The fact is that tying your money to an arbitrary mineral resource does not create stability. Gold only has value because people say it has value, just like fiat money. How is backing a currency with a resource any safer than backing it with a government? The total value of the United States is over 100 trillion dollars. The total value of all the gold ever mined is something like 8 or 9 trillion in current USD. Neither is likely to tank any time soon, but if the US did your gold wouldn't be worth much anyway. With my 'worthless' fiat government-backed dollars I don't have to worry about significant fluctuations in the day-to-day value of my money. There's a slow, steady rate of inflation that prevents hoarding and reduces the cost of credit (no more deflation panics like we had every decade or two in the good old days of the gold standard).

Bitcoin is even worse than gold. Rampant deflation driven by speculation killed whatever bitcoin economy there was, then when prices got too high and mining became unprofitable people just started making their own alternative crypto currencies to mine. Where's the stability there? Crypto-coins are a hobby, not a currency.

You're missing one thing: resources have value, not just because people say they have value (like fiat currency), there are actual uses for them.
Gold is used in computers, electronics, conductors, and many other things, thus, making it have REAL value.

Paper money isn't even worth the paper it is printed on, regardless of who says what it is worth.
The only difference between a $100 bill and a $1 bill is the designs printed on them, even though they are both the exact same size, shape, weight, and paper-type.

While there may not be as much currency in gold, using your example, there is more value in the amount of that currency.
Back in the 1970's a high-end muscle-car, fully decked out, was around $8000; today, that same vehicle is around $100,000+.

Are we using $90,000+ more in materials in these new vehicles? Hell no.
The value of the dollar has been lost over time, since we have mainly moved from resources and manufacturing, to being a service economy, which, unfortunately, doesn't really produce anything.

Oh well, it doesn't matter how much we talk or complain, the powers that be will always do what they want, when they want, and to who they want.
Good times.

 

[Red Falcon]

At any rate, what's used as currency isn't nearly as important as the faith in that currency. Gold probably wouldn't be much more if any more stable as a currency in a apocalyptic scenario considering it can't be used for food or fuel though it is physically resilient.

You're definitely right about that.
In such a setting, unless gold can be used for something (other than money itself), it would have no value.

However, food and water, as you've stated, would have infinitely more value than gold, or any other alloys (assuming said alloys are shapeless and not like knives, guns, pipes, etc. which would have value themselves).

 

[Tgrove]

Why are there so many weirdos/sociopaths/egotists/pedophiles on alternative communities like reddit and 4chan?

The type of people they attract just seems to be drastically different from your typical Internet forum.

Now this is true.

 

[JaiWebb]

I didn't know that. I can't imagine that it's hideously expensive though or that big of a deal.

Define 'expensive'.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/28/u-s-hikes-fee-to-renounce-citizenship-by-422/

However, food and water, as you've stated, would have infinitely more value than gold, or any other alloys (assuming said alloys are shapeless and not like knives, guns, pipes, etc. which would have value themselves).

Unless someone finds a way to easily desalinate salt water, water, will easily be one of the most valuable commodities in the not so distant future.