Recording

[Luca1]

Hi,

Building up to recording live bands

If I have a firewire audio interface with 8 ins (with built in preamps on every channel -m audio profire 2626) and I want to extend that setup with another 8 instrument ins (don't need preamps), what can I use to do that?

Cheers
Luca

 

[obobski]

lemme make sure I'm understanding your question:

you have:
8 mic preamp inputs
you want to add:
8 line inputs
hardware you have:
ProFire 2626

get this:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Octane.html

connect via ADAT

ProTools 7.x won't do >12 or 16 tracks iirc, ProTools 8 will do up to 48 tracks out of the box, and 64 with upgrades, iirc cakewalk has some DAW that will easily do this (some variation of sonar), and ACID Pro/Sound Forge should probably go just fine as well

nfc regarding Audition/SoundBooth (what a dreadful pair of applications that is) or FL Studio, and Audacity should probably work on the newest version, but it might require playing with it a bit

::edit
did some further reading on the ProTools issue, it seems that PT8-M will actually do up to 64 tracks, if you have Music Production Toolkit 2, and thats 64 stereo or mono, just off the shelf you'll have 48 stereo/mono inputs (honestly I don't think you can get that kind of I/O with M-Audio hardware, since PT doesn't supported ganged cards, and even with Delta 1010's ganged, you're only talking 40 in/40 out, mono, to accomplish 48 stereo you'd need 96 mono ins, which would be some 10 Delta 1010 series boards, or roughly 3 Lightbridge units fully decked with Octanes and running in 44.1k (either way you're talking about something like $5000-$10000 of hardware (10xDelta 1010 is roughly 10x$500, 3xLightbridge is roughly 3x$500 + 12xOctane at ~$750 a pop, and the Delta solution would be better (if possible (it isn't, the cap is 4 cards)) because of the ability to do 96khz on all tracks), honestly at that point, just buy the thing from Digidesign entirely)

ref:
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=119&langid=100&itemid=6422 (this costs more than PT8-M retail by about 2x btw)
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=35&langid=100&itemid=4901

 

[Luca1]

Wicked, thanks.

Can I link up a profire 2626 and a octane 8 channel preamp and record into Sonar (if protools can't do that many tracks at once)?

Thanks again
Luca

 

[obobski]

Wicked, thanks. Thats what I'm after

What sort of ADAT is good for this do you think?

Another question I have is, I will use 10-12 mics for drums, room and amps and only 1 really for vocals.. do I need the preamps on all 8 channels? I mean, are preamps designed mainly for vocals or will they help the room, drum and amp mics aswell?

Thanks again
Luca

all mics need preamps, basically because a mic is a voice coil (without getting overly technical about this) just like a speaker, it needs power

honestly I'm wondering why you need 10-12 mics for a drumset, unless you're mic'ing neal peart himself, it should only take something like 5 (something like two overheads, kick, snare, and toms, roughly)

anyways, assuming you need to run (for the sake of discussion) a dozen mics, you'll want to feed them all into preamps, which both the ProFire and Octane have (and from M-Audio's website, those preamps should be pretty damn similar, if not identical), dial them in as needed on your preamp controls, and then feed your line devices (like DI box outputs, CD/DAT players, drum machines, whatever)

and then you just have to setup tracks in your software of choice, which according to Digidesign can include ProTools 8, if you've got it, and basically go from there

 

[Luca1]

Thanks man, great reply, so..

Mics (say 12 total for all amp, drum and room mic'n) + couple of di's
-into-
Octane 8 channel preamp in conjunction with profire 2626 (also 8 octane preamps)
-into-
Mixer
-into-
PC with protools 8

Is that what you mean? Or would I use a 2 x Octane 8's or 2 x profire 2626's to get preamps on all channels? Is this the cheapest method or am I getting confused?

 

[obobski]

Sweet, so..

Mics (say 12 for all drum, amp and room mic'n) + couple of di's
-into-
Octane 8 channel preamp in conjunction with firewire 1814
-into-
Mixer
-into-
PC with protools 8

Is that what you mean?

whoa, where'd we switch to a FW1814 from a ProFire 2626?

and why would the Mixer feed into the PC?

you've got things wired up kind of screwy, and I just realized you're mic'ing guitar amps (WHY), honestly a bit more information was needed from me

you'll have your ProFire2626/FW1814 (I don't remember if this supports ADAT honestly), and Octane(s) (if you need >44.1, you'll need more than one Octane unit), ADAT between the Octane(s) and the 2626

your mics will connect to the mic preamp inputs on the Octane/2626, and your line sources into the line inputs (on Octane these are labeled D/A Line Input, on 2626 they're the same physical jacks as the preamp inputs), then from the 2626 you'll have 1394 into the PC (read this if you haven't: http://www.m-audio.com/index.php?do=support.faq&ID=c9d161aac920b52a508de3167730a7ae), your DAW will then have to be configured to use your audio interface (in this case, the 2626), from there, just setup as many tracks as you need in your session and whatever else you need from within the DAW (plug-ins, synths, effects, whatever)

as far as connecting an mixer into this, thats a whole other can of worms and really depends on the mixer you're using, its abilities, how its setup, and what your end goal is, and this may (as in "absolutely will") influence your DAW's hardware and software needs dramatically, so without knowing more about what you've got, I can't really say "buy this" or "hook this up like this"

 

[Luca1]

Wait.. the octane 8 is just preamps but not a audio interface, and the 2626 is an interface with preamps built in!

Thats where I'm screwing myself up.. shit.. I had a feeling I had everything kind of screwy :/ Sorry man.



-I switch to a FW1814 cause it has lightpipe whereas (i just realised) the profires don't.

-I thought the mixer goes to pc to do all leveling (I did a couple days recording in studio and the guy had his mixing desk setting the levels then running into pc to record, I think thats how it was set anyways).

-I mic'n guitar amps to get the unique sound from the cabs.

None of the profires support ADAT. I mean, I can't see a ADAT in or out on them.

I basically wanna record 14 mics with preamps into protools 8 (as I favour both the octane pre's and the protools interface), and am looking for easiest/cheapest way that will work.

Do I need to connect a mixer? I will miss it for now if it unnecessary..

 

[Luca1]

edit

 

[obobski]

this guy in a studio probably had about 10 grand into that "mixer", and thats in quotes, because it was probably a control surface, or at minimum, digital console


and what are you talking about ProFire doesn't have ADAT?
ProFire 2626 - Optical I/O in the form of:
2 x 2 S/PDIF (on optical port B) or
16 x 16 ADAT (8 x 8 in S/MUX II mode, 4 x 4 in S/MUX IV mode)

ProFire Lightbridge - 32-channel Lightpipe I/O at 44.1 or 48kHz, 16-channel Lightpipe I/O at 88.2 or 96kHz using S/MUX

only difference is the Lightbridge will take more via ADAT, and the 2626 has 8 track analog I/O, the 2626 would be my pick for versatility, unless you've got some monster board or interface on the other end

as far as how leveling is accomplished, the 2626 and Octane have leveling for their preamps, and the DAW software/drivers will handle I/O leveling from that (think of the pots as your gain control on a mixer, and the faders are all in software (this is where the control surface comes into play))

if you wanted to use a conventional mixer, you'd actually just drop all of the M-Audio hardware, grab something cheap like an A192 or E-MU 0404, and feed one of the ST Record or Main feeds out from your mixer, and use that to control everything, the issue here is that you can't record each track by itself, and go back and play with it after recording, you're stuck with what comes off the mixer

the other option is a control surface/interface in one, like this:
http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/ProjectMixIO.html
or this:
http://www.digidesign.com/index.cfm?navid=154&itemid=4878

that solution will give you physical control over the software, and handle input/output routing as well as multi-track recording into the PC, there are "controller only" devices, like the Mackie Control or some Behringer crap (I'd stay away here), but the price is about comparable to the Digi/M-Audio setup, and you don't get audio I/O or software packages

 

[Luca1]

Thanks, your being a shitload of help to me this is pluddy interesting stuff.

-So yup, I understand the leveling process now, and in that regard I think I scratch the mixer idea for now. I don't really need physical control on the fly when recording.
But do need to record each track by itself so the A192 or EMU is no good for me.

-Didn't realise that Lightbridge (ADAT) and S/PDIF acomplished the same thing.

In using S/PDIF or lightbridge, would the signal then be unbalanced?

Would it make more sense to run a octane 8 into a 2626, or just run 2 x 2626's -via firewire to PC to get all the inputs with preamps?

 

[obobski]

Thanks, your being a shitload of help to me this is pluddy interesting stuff.

-So yup, I understand the leveling process now, and in that regard I think I scratch the mixer idea for now. I don't really need physical control on the fly when recording.
But do need to record each track by itself so the A192 or EMU is no good for me.

-Didn't realise that Lightbridge (ADAT) and S/PDIF acomplished the same thing.

In using S/PDIF or lightbridge, would the signal then be unbalanced?

Would it make more sense to run a octane 8 into a 2626, or just run 2 x 2626's -via firewire to PC to get all the inputs with preamps?

lightbridge is the machine, lightpipe is the alternate term for ADAT, S/PDIF is separate (the connectors will be the same, and most of these devices can do either, S/PDIF is just more limited (it can't do as many tracks))

as far as balanced vs unbalanced, irrelevant, your A/D's and D/A's will determine this, if you're taking a signal from within the PC and putting it out via ADAT, if the D/A can't do balanced output, the signal is not balanced, and so on, it doesn't matter either way, given that in the pro space we only use balanced because it rejects noise better over long runs, with an OPTICAL interface, things like RF interference aren't even a thought

now on the 2 2626 setup, I wouldn't, because its two interfaces, costs more, and will be a clusterf**k in software

the Octane has line and preamp inputs, just the same as the 2626, and will save you a few bucks, and keep software more logical (you only have to deal with one interface)

the cleanest setup is what I posted in the first response, 2626 + Octane
if you go with ProjectMix, you'll have ADAT to connect an Octane and have the same 16 inputs, along with tactile control, if thats really a factor for you, its only a few hundred more

 

[Luca1]

Fuck, this has gotta be the most intense thread I ever been in, my head is filling with info, again.. thanks for your time.
I think this time I have understood.

lightbridge is the machine, lightpipe is the alternate term for ADAT, S/PDIF is separate (the connectors will be the same, and most of these devices can do either, S/PDIF is just more limited (it can't do as many tracks))

I meant light'pipe' but thanks for clearing that up anyways, I woulda kept mixing the wordings up otherwise.
I was originally confused with ADAT as the only time I've heard this used is in relation to a DAT recorder :/ Not the method of transferring the signal.
But S/PDIF will run the 8 outs of the Octane into the 2626 with no troubles?

as far as balanced vs unbalanced, irrelevant, your A/D's and D/A's will determine this, if you're taking a signal from within the PC and putting it out via ADAT, if the D/A can't do balanced output, the signal is not balanced, and so on, it doesn't matter either way, given that in the pro space we only use balanced because it rejects noise better over long runs, with an OPTICAL interface, things like RF interference aren't even a thought

Ah yes I forgot with digital signal via optical cable = low interference. I just read about AES/EBU ins so that threw me a little, but I'm gonna forget about them for now, that'll just throw me out when I pretty much got a handle on this.
But basically your saying, because I'm using an optical interface and transferring signal via optical cable, balanced/unbalanced doesn't really apply because of the pretty much non existent RF interferance.
And when you say 'taking a signal from within the PC and putting it out via ADAT' which part of the process is that?

now on the 2 2626 setup, I wouldn't, because its two interfaces, costs more, and will be a clusterf**k in software.
The Octane has line and preamp inputs, just the same as the 2626, and will save you a few bucks, and keep software more logical (you only have to deal with one interface)

2 interfaces = rubbish. Fair enough.


SO... IN CONCLUSION *ahem*

I will run:
Mics etc
-into-
Octane 8 connected via ADAT into the profire 2626 (adjusting gain for each input)
-into-
PC's TI (texas instrument) firewire port via firewire cable which sends signal to protools 8 to do leveling/recording

Thus giving me 16 channels of similtaneous recording via Octane preamps.

Sound sensible?

 

[obobski]

basically you've got it right, except you aren't using S/PDIF, you're using ADAT (The thing's formal name is "ADAT Lightpipe", and you're correct, ADAT should actually refer to the tape, but I don't know who actually uses that)

connect the Octane's ADAT/optical out to the 2626's ADAT/optical in, make sure everything is setup right (Sample rate and etc, in order to get the # of inputs you want, if you want higher than 44.1, you need another Octane)

and then yeah, everything you want in PT8-M

as far as the example for ADAT out, if you connected the outputs on the Octane and the outputs on the 2626 (not that you need this feature), or similar pieces of hardware, or a S/PDIF device, for example, if that device's D/A hardware doesn't handle a balanced signal, you don't get a balanced output, just as if the A/D can't accept a balanced input, you don't get a balanced signal (I don't want to say this because I don't want you thinking you need balanced into the A/D because the balanced signal somehow carries over the digital bitstream, it DOES NOT, because balanced/unbalanced is analog signal and analog terminology, digital only understands bits and bytes)

 

[Luca1]

balanced/unbalanced is analog signal and analog terminology, digital only understands bits and bytes)

Perfect, thanks.

connect the Octane's ADAT/optical out to the 2626's ADAT/optical in, make sure everything is setup right (Sample rate and etc, in order to get the # of inputs you want, if you want higher than 44.1, you need another Octane)

So if I recording in 96/24bit, which I will be, how will I achieve this on at least 14 channels.
I mean if PT8 is set to 96/24 recording and the 2626 is capable of upto 192/24, BUT the octane is only capable of 44.1 and 48, will the octane signal be upsampled at the computer thus reducing the quality or just come out phase'y or sumthing? I don't really understand that part.

 

[obobski]

you're limited to 48k on the octane, 24/48 is its maximum sampling rate, so that would be roughly what your project is capable of, you'll want to connect it to the 2626 wordclock, and lock everything to 24/48 or 24/44.1 from the 2626

if you want 24/96 on those tracks, you'll want something like this:
http://www.presonus.com/products/Detail.aspx?ProductId=13

again, use wordclock

 

[Luca1]

Shit! Always a hitch

3 final questions if I went that route..

a) different preamps = different noticable sound?

b) do I really need 96/24 if I not doing DVD audio (cd audio is 44.1 isn't it)?

 

[obobski]

Shit! Always a hitch

2 final questions if I went that route..

a) different preamps = different noticable sound?

b) do I really need 96/24 if I not doing DVD audio (cd audio is 44.1 isn't it)?

the amp won't influence sound that much, this isn't an audiophile's living room, this is live sound recording

personally I don't see the need for 24/96 if you aren't doing a final mix at that resolution, because it means you'll be resampling to 16/44.1 (for CD) or whatever else (for web/game/etc) content

in finding that PreSonus, they offer a 24/48 for about $399, but honestly, I'd grab that 24/96 unit, its ~$600, so about the same price as Octane at retail, and you can do 16 tracks in 24/96 or 16 tracks in 24/48 or 16/48 or 44.1 or whatever, its flexible, and only takes up 2RU installed with the 2626

 

[Luca1]

and because I would be using a presonus preamp through a 'M-Audio 2626' will it still run with PT8 M powered (as PT8 MP only runs with a piece of M-audio certified hardware)...

 

[obobski]

and because I would be using a presonus preamp through a 'M-Audio 2626' will it still run with PT8 M powered (as PT8 MP only runs with a piece of M-audio certified hardware)...

doesn't matter what you connect to the M-Audio, its just another device as far as the M-Audio is concerned

so yeah, it will work

 

[Luca1]

Uh, I think thats it. Unreal.

Ever in Australia and need brickwork done, let me know

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Thanks for all your time
Luca

 

[Audiochris]

honestly I'm wondering why you need 10-12 mics for a drumset, unless you're mic'ing neal peart himself, it should only take something like 5 (something like two overheads, kick, snare, and toms, roughly)

For the band I tour with I mic the drums as follows: Kick Inside, Kick outside, snare top, snare bottom, hat, tom 1, tom 2, tom 3, overhead stage right, overhead stage left. 10 mics isn't that unusual. for a studio recording i would expect to see upwards of 16.