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Receiver vs PC speakers

I

ilkvest

n00b
Joined
Aug 2, 2004
Messages
13
I want a home theater setup for playing PC games, watching DVD movies and listening to music. I have the PC end of things sorted out (and working on the visual side), in addition I have:
  • A Sony DVD player DAV-S300 (integrated reciever)
    amplifier output at 30 W per channel (3 ohms at 1 kHZ, THD 10%)
  • A 5.1 set of Sony speakers SS-TS300 (satellites) and SS-WS300 (Subwoofer)
    Impedance of all these are 3 ohms. I assume they are rated for less than 30 W since that is what the DAV-S300 is at (came as a package). These have those banana connectors.
  • A 5.1 soundcard (Game theater XP)
The DAV-S300 and Sony speakers work fine together (they came together). The problem is that there is no way to input 5.1 sound from the soundcard to the Sony DAV-S300 (L and R stereo input jacks only), thus I cannot use the 5.1 speakers with the PC.

I could forget about the Sonys and get some good PC speakers like the Logitech Z-680, but I figure that they'd only be good for the 'desktop' environment and not the lounge. Since I don't know, perhaps they're fine for both? I'm not keen on playing stuff real loud but realise it doesn't hurt to have the ability to do so, also I assume when something is rated higher there is less distortion for the same loudness of sound as compared to a lower rated speaker. Additionally, going this route means I have to upgrade the speakers and amplifier to keep up with the technology.

The other option is to buy a proper receiver, perhaps a Denon 3803, and use it to drive the Sony speakers that I already have. The Denon's output seems to be rated for more than 4 ohm impedance and 100 W per channel which is much higher than the Sony specification. This route allows me to slowly add better speakers later on and of course I wouldn't need to buy a receiver if I decided I need one later on. The extra cost involved could only be justified if the quality of sound would definitely be better (or at least improvable by upgrading the speakers).

Firstly, would the second choice pose a problem concerning the output rating with regard to the Sonys, or does it just mean I have to keep the volume low? (perhaps there's a way of setting the max power output by the volume control on the Denon?).

Secondly, which would you say is the best route to take and why?

Cheers
 
ilkvest said:
I want a home theater setup for playing PC games, watching DVD movies and listening to music. I have the PC end of things sorted out (and working on the visual side), in addition I have:
  • A Sony DVD player DAV-S300 (integrated reciever)
    amplifier output at 30 W per channel (3 ohms at 1 kHZ, THD 10%)
  • A 5.1 set of Sony speakers SS-TS300 (satellites) and SS-WS300 (Subwoofer)
    Impedance of all these are 3 ohms. I assume they are rated for less than 30 W since that is what the DAV-S300 is at (came as a package). These have those banana connectors.
  • A 5.1 soundcard (Game theater XP)
The DAV-S300 and Sony speakers work fine together (they came together). The problem is that there is no way to input 5.1 sound from the soundcard to the Sony DAV-S300 (L and R stereo input jacks only), thus I cannot use the 5.1 speakers with the PC.

I could forget about the Sonys and get some good PC speakers like the Logitech Z-680, but I figure that they'd only be good for the 'desktop' environment and not the lounge. Since I don't know, perhaps they're fine for both? I'm not keen on playing stuff real loud but realise it doesn't hurt to have the ability to do so, also I assume when something is rated higher there is less distortion for the same loudness of sound as compared to a lower rated speaker. Additionally, going this route means I have to upgrade the speakers and amplifier to keep up with the technology.

The other option is to buy a proper receiver, perhaps a Denon 3803, and use it to drive the Sony speakers that I already have. The Denon's output seems to be rated for more than 4 ohm impedance and 100 W per channel which is much higher than the Sony specification. This route allows me to slowly add better speakers later on and of course I wouldn't need to buy a receiver if I decided I need one later on. The extra cost involved could only be justified if the quality of sound would definitely be better (or at least improvable by upgrading the speakers).

Firstly, would the second choice pose a problem concerning the output rating with regard to the Sonys, or does it just mean I have to keep the volume low? (perhaps there's a way of setting the max power output by the volume control on the Denon?).

Secondly, which would you say is the best route to take and why?

Cheers
Click to expand...


Well the Denon route is a good idea, however the speakers you want to mate it with are a bit of a concern. 3ohm load may be a bit low for the Denon, plus those speakers would not be anywhere close to justifiy the Denon.
If I were you I would get the Denon and a decent set of Bookshelf speakers and forget 5.1 now. Then when you get the money get the other speakers to fill in the 5.1

30 W per channel (3 ohms at 1 kHZ, THD 10%) WOW - I have seen better numbers on cheap car stereos, not that the numbers generally mean a hill of beans, but damn those are not good at all. If the amp section of that kit is that poor I can only imagine the speaker part is equally as bad.

If the Denon route is not what you want, then the Logitech Z-680,or Klipsch set will actually be a better preformer than the Sony set you currently have.
 
Do you have an overall budget you could share with us?

edit: and yeah the specs on those sonys are horrid. What's worse is generally I expect their specs to be optimistic. 10% THD? I don't care if it's half that, that's absurd.
 
As well as budget, tell us about the space that you'll be listing in. How close will you be to the speakers, how big is the room?
 
m1abram said:
Well the Denon route is a good idea, however the speakers you want to mate it with are a bit of a concern. 3ohm load may be a bit low for the Denon, plus those speakers would not be anywhere close to justifiy the Denon.
If I were you I would get the Denon and a decent set of Bookshelf speakers and forget 5.1 now. Then when you get the money get the other speakers to fill in the 5.1

30 W per channel (3 ohms at 1 kHZ, THD 10%) WOW - I have seen better numbers on cheap car stereos, not that the numbers generally mean a hill of beans, but damn those are not good at all. If the amp section of that kit is that poor I can only imagine the speaker part is equally as bad.

If the Denon route is not what you want, then the Logitech Z-680,or Klipsch set will actually be a better preformer than the Sony set you currently have.
Click to expand...

Sorry, for the late reply...

Indeed, I understand the Sony speakers are not worthy but the idea is to spread the cost by just getting things running with the Denon and later on add proper speakers. I'm under the impression I can run the Sony speakers through the Denon with low volume settings and that the Denon has protection circuits to stop overcurrent.

When I first got the Sony DAV-S300 it all looked impressive, the speakers too. They sounded totally fine, but I guess that maybe because I've never had a proper setup. I didn't understand that ohm/THD rating when I wrote but a bit of reading up and now I can see why you're amazed!
 
emorphien said:
Do you have an overall budget you could share with us?

edit: and yeah the specs on those sonys are horrid. What's worse is generally I expect their specs to be optimistic. 10% THD? I don't care if it's half that, that's absurd.
Click to expand...

GodsMadClown said:
As well as budget, tell us about the space that you'll be listing in. How close will you be to the speakers, how big is the room?
Click to expand...

10% THD is what the manual actually says. http://formen.ign.com/news/19576.html?fromint=1 seems to recommend it! Haven't used it much actually, so I thought I could make better use of it through the PC via a Denon.

The room with the PC is small, with PC in corner, so maybe the fronts are two feet apart (i.e. personal space!). However, the lounge (where I would have the HT) is just under 13x13 ft. Now normally when at the PC I use headphones, in fact I have old 2.1 speakers there which I hardly ever use. So, primarily the speakers have to be best effective in the 13x13 lounge, the bonus with the Logitechs is that I can move them to the PC if I want to game on the monitor instead and with surround rather than headphones. However, I suspect the disadvantage with the Logitech is that they wouldn't be as effective in the 13x13 as a proper Denon/KEF (or whatever I go for) setup would be.

The budget could be variable. For example, I could grab the Logitech for 400 (or whatever) but if I can get a far better sound out of a 2-3 thousand dollar setup I could go that far too.

So I think the main question is, would the Denon/KEF setup (it would probably start off with the Sony speakers but I'll upgrade slowly) be much better sounding in the 13x13 room than the Logitech z-680s in the same room. Is it really worth the extra expense bearing in mind I don't like playing things too loud to be annoying to neighbours (detached house, but them subs make sound travel).

Thanks all three of you for the replies
 
ok.. the dennon will drive thows speakers fine.. i have yet to see a reciver that wont drive a 2 ohm load in sterio i was once told that ALL recivers will drive 2 ohm in an unbridged mode... (but this may be wrong as it is hearsay) now... that dennon is way more powerfull than the sony (duh) and can easly blow the speakers... simple solution.... dont turn it up so loud they blow... (again duh) no... the sonys will not sound good in the 13x13 room if your trying to get movie like environment... but i dont think the logi's will eather... go ahead and use the sonys till you can get a better set... but trust me you will want to upgrade them in a hurry if you plan on useing them for home cinima

there are a few choises out there but i recommend klh (use them personaly... as dose my dad and my bro) get this set :::from here if you want to browse more i have the system set up in a room that is 17x24ft with the sub stuck in a corner (well kind it sits about 8" off of each wall ) and hooked up to a pioneer dts reciever (dont remeber the model # off the top of my head) any way.. it rivals the local cinimas around here as far as quality and feel go (size for size) and can hit quite hard when listening to music and gets down right creepy in game... (i wont play doom3 on it any more... my bro snuck up on me while i was playing and had to change my pants... ) well worth the 400+$ there,i got mine at costco during christmas for sub 300$ (and the sub is self powered...(i dont remeber if the web sight mentions that or not.. ))

thore
 
thore said:
ok.. the dennon will drive thows speakers fine.. i have yet to see a reciver that wont drive a 2 ohm load in sterio i was once told that ALL recivers will drive 2 ohm in an unbridged mode... (but this may be wrong as it is hearsay) now... that dennon is way more powerfull than the sony (duh) and can easly blow the speakers... simple solution.... dont turn it up so loud they blow... (again duh) no... the sonys will not sound good in the 13x13 room if your trying to get movie like environment... but i dont think the logi's will eather... go ahead and use the sonys till you can get a better set... but trust me you will want to upgrade them in a hurry if you plan on useing them for home cinima

there are a few choises out there but i recommend klh (use them personaly... as dose my dad and my bro)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the back-up with regard to using the Sonys. I don't plan on using them always, just till I decide on a nice set of speakers that suit the lounge. If I go for the Denon route, I would probably want bigger floorstanding speakers but would consider the style you pointed out (KLH).

Just a question regarding the power rating. Those KLH speakers are rated "5 to 125 Watts" and the Denon is rated 120 Watts RMS. Does the 5 to 125 Watts really mean RMS (I know it's a range that implies min and max, but there could be a reason for an RMS range, like power RMS at different frequencies). If so, then the Denon is not fit to drive those speakers, due to the "clipping?" I have read that your receiver should be able to provide more power than what the speakers are rated for.
 
One thing as far as matching speakers and amps by power rating. Dont bother as long as the AMP can handle driving the speakers, do not worry too much about overdriving the speakers. MORE AMP is always better, however with those sonys be careful cause I bet if you blow on them too hard they will shatter ;).

What usually tends to blow speakers is underdriving them and cause the amp to clip. Clipping produces a DC bias on the speaker and that little voice coil just goes *poof*.

The Denon amp will be plenty of power for any home speaker in your price range.
 
ilkvest said:
Can't seem to see where it says the power rating of the satellites (not in the manual either).
Click to expand...

Read my post above regarding power rating of speakers ;)
 
m1abram said:
What usually tends to blow speakers is underdriving them and cause the amp to clip. Clipping produces a DC bias on the speaker and that little voice coil just goes *poof*.

The Denon amp will be plenty of power for any home speaker in your price range.
Click to expand...
This is how I understood it but, as I mentioned in a previous post, some speakers have their ratings as a range, say 10-100 W for example; does this mean I need an amplifier rated at or over 100 W or is that 10-100 W meant to be averaged to about 60 W?

Thanks.
 
That's because power rating for HT speakers is not relevant. The 3803 will power just about any speaker in your price range with ease.

More to the point, why are you considering a Denon 3803 when you are considering $~500 speaker sets? Drop down to a Refurb Denon from ecost and spend the extra money on better speakers. Speaker quality is much more important than amplification quality.

What is the total budget that you'd allocate for the whole rig?
 
GodsMadClown said:
That's because power rating for HT speakers is not relevant. The 3803 will power just about any speaker in your price range with ease.

More to the point, why are you considering a Denon 3803 when you are considering $~500 speaker sets? Drop down to a Refurb Denon from ecost and spend the extra money on better speakers. Speaker quality is much more important than amplification quality.

What is the total budget that you'd allocate for the whole rig?
Click to expand...
This is getting confusing :) I didn't realise that when speakers are labelled as "HT speakers" that you can assume they have a lower power rating, my fault. Anyway, I hope it makes sense that I prefer to be sure about such things but couldn't find a rating for those Tykes. Thing is, I have seen speaker sets rated at 120 W for that price so wanted to be careful especially considering claims about the Denon (I think it was the 3805) not quite managing its claimed output rating in 5.1 and especially 7.1 mode.

I'm not just considering $500 speaker sets. Those were recommended in the thread to me and I will consider any advice; as I said earlier, I can go right up to two or three thousand dollars IF the quality will be distinctly better (budget for speakers + receiver). Before, I actually had KEF speakers in mind, totalling to just over $1000 (speakers only).
 
The thing with power ratings is that they are pretty much just arbitrary numbers attached to speakers. You could easily run speakers with a power rating of 100W powered by a 200W amp and never have any clipping problems, you just wouldn't ever max out the amp. As a matter of fact it's pretty common for people do do this. I would venture to guess quite a few people on this forum have an amp which has a higher power rating then their speakers. On the flip side you could definitely power 150W speakers with a 50W per channel amp, they will sound fine (although they would likely sound better with more power).

Which speaker to choose is wholly subjective, the Tyke recommendation is a good one and the nice thing about av123 is you can order them and send them back (and just pay one way shipping) if you hate them. It might cost you $20. I use them in my computer room and, while they are certainly not full range speakers they pretty much contend or best any 'computer speakers' in that price range.

I'm a little confused what you're trying to do though - will this speaker system be used only for the computer or is it for the main room of the house, including HT? If so you're probably going to want to up the budget on the speakers and go with something more robust, like a set of 5 60Hz (frequency range) or lower bookshelves or floorstanders and a sub that will go to at least 25Hz. If you end up doing that no one can tell you what you will like, since you may like something they hate and vice versa.
 
http://forum.av123.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=4205&highlight=Kenwood

Kenwood VRS-7100

It's always exciting when a new product is added to the AV123 lineup. However, it's even more exciting when this $500.00 product is practically given away.

I'm proud to announce (as a result of numerous requests and popular demand) AV123's first 100% digital HT receiver...the Kenwood VRS-7100! This phenomenal 6.1 channel (100W/channel @ 6 ohms) receiver offers a full suite of features suitable for even the most complex home theaters including front A/V inputs including optical digital, component HD video inputs, Dolby Digital EX, DTS ES, and Pro Logic IIx decoding, preamp level outputs for all 6 channels, and even single-zone, dual source output (headphone output will work independently from powered speaker outputs).

The best news? For a VERY limited time, we are offering this receiver for $99.00 with Tyke and ELT home theater systems. That's $498.00 for a full Tyke 5.1 system! This receiver sells elsewhere for $500.00 ALONE! OR, how about $1098.00 for a complete ELT home theater including everything needed to get your room up and running...and we'll even throw in another LRS (to complete the 6.1 system) for an additional $100.00!

Now for the restrictions...due to the nature of this promotion, we are unable to offer this deal on b-stock or sale items. Normal price on the receiver through AV123 is $399.00. All prices do not include shipping.
Click to expand...

Go for the ELT rig.
 
The Denon like many other HT amps claim 120x5 power, however they do not mean 120x5 ALL channels powered at the SAME time. It is one of many tricks companies do to market their equipment. The denon can produce 120 watts on any single channel is what the rating should read. The Denon actually gets closer than other vendors in its price range *cough* Yamaha*cough*.

Bottom line with ALL audio gear take the numbers on paper as a not much of anything. You can not even compare them between other vendors because they have NO standard to test by to acheive the numbers.

Back to speaker power ratings, just ignore them ok. You will not come across too many speakers that you will risk blowing by overpowering with the Denon amp. And in your denon will provide plenty of power to drive any speaker that will fit in your room. Just don't be stupid and drive it to clipping.
 
JackieO said:
The thing with power ratings is that they are pretty much just arbitrary numbers attached to speakers. You could easily run speakers with a power rating of 100W powered by a 200W amp and never have any clipping problems, you just wouldn't ever max out the amp. As a matter of fact it's pretty common for people do do this. I would venture to guess quite a few people on this forum have an amp which has a higher power rating then their speakers. On the flip side you could definitely power 150W speakers with a 50W per channel amp, they will sound fine (although they would likely sound better with more power).

Which speaker to choose is wholly subjective, the Tyke recommendation is a good one and the nice thing about av123 is you can order them and send them back (and just pay one way shipping) if you hate them. It might cost you $20. I use them in my computer room and, while they are certainly not full range speakers they pretty much contend or best any 'computer speakers' in that price range.

I'm a little confused what you're trying to do though - will this speaker system be used only for the computer or is it for the main room of the house, including HT? If so you're probably going to want to up the budget on the speakers and go with something more robust, like a set of 5 60Hz (frequency range) or lower bookshelves or floorstanders and a sub that will go to at least 25Hz. If you end up doing that no one can tell you what you will like, since you may like something they hate and vice versa.
Click to expand...

Agreed, I run a matched system in my living room with the front towers handling 150 watts and the center and rear handling 100. I run them off a receiver that is reported as having 55w/channel in surround at <0.07 THD, however tests have noted it puts out as much as 30 watts more than that with very low distortion (still under .1 but i forget what). It handles output at its high levels well and does not clip, and the speakers sound great with it... but they could certainly take even more power.

Im also replacing some ancient technics floorstanders in my bedroom maybe for a pair of Axiom M3Tis. I have an Onkyo stereo receiver, 50w/ channel in stereo so it'll be interesting to see whether that's gonna need upgrading too. Incidentally the receiver in the living room is supposedly 65 watts in stereo, but again its much more powerful than its rated.

blaaah i just did a presentation and im braindead
 
m1abram said:
The Denon like many other HT amps claim 120x5 power, however they do not mean 120x5 ALL channels powered at the SAME time. It is one of many tricks companies do to market their equipment. The denon can produce 120 watts on any single channel is what the rating should read. The Denon actually gets closer than other vendors in its price range *cough* Yamaha*cough*.

Bottom line with ALL audio gear take the numbers on paper as a not much of anything. You can not even compare them between other vendors because they have NO standard to test by to acheive the numbers.

Back to speaker power ratings, just ignore them ok. You will not come across too many speakers that you will risk blowing by overpowering with the Denon amp. And in your denon will provide plenty of power to drive any speaker that will fit in your room. Just don't be stupid and drive it to clipping.
Click to expand...
You make an excellent point. My system can output 55 watts per channel to every channel because each is discrete.

Sony loves to make claims for high outputs, but it's only to one channel as you mention.
 
JackieO said:
The thing with power ratings is that they are pretty much just arbitrary numbers attached to speakers. You could easily run speakers with a power rating of 100W powered by a 200W amp and never have any clipping problems, you just wouldn't ever max out the amp. As a matter of fact it's pretty common for people do do this. I would venture to guess quite a few people on this forum have an amp which has a higher power rating then their speakers. On the flip side you could definitely power 150W speakers with a 50W per channel amp, they will sound fine (although they would likely sound better with more power).
Click to expand...
As I understand it, powering 100 W speakers with a 200 W amp will not result in clipping, agreed - you just need to watch the volume. However, you say you could definitely power 150 W speakers with a 50 W/Ch amp, but isn't this when the "clipping" and damage to speakers occurs? I've read as a rule you should use an amp with a power rating at least 50% more than the speaker rating. So this is why I'm concerned about not getting speakers rated above the amplifier.

JackieO said:
I'm a little confused what you're trying to do though - will this speaker system be used only for the computer or is it for the main room of the house, including HT? If so you're probably going to want to up the budget on the speakers and go with something more robust, like a set of 5 60Hz (frequency range) or lower bookshelves or floorstanders and a sub that will go to at least 25Hz. If you end up doing that no one can tell you what you will like, since you may like something they hate and vice versa.
Click to expand...
If I buy large, expensive speakers then they would only go in the HT room. If I go for small, portable speakers then they would be moved between HT and PC room. As pointed out in the thread, it's probably not wise to use small (say, Logitech Z-680s) in the HT room, so I might take the Denon amplifier route. Frankly, I have no clue what to look out for with regards to frequency ranges of speakers or subs. I didn't really want to bring speaker buying choice in yet, because I would intend to use the Sonys with the Denon until I learn more about the different speakers available.

Cheers.
 
ilkvest said:
As I understand it, powering 100 W speakers with a 200 W amp will not result in clipping, agreed - you just need to watch the volume. However, you say you could definitely power 150 W speakers with a 50 W/Ch amp, but isn't this when the "clipping" and damage to speakers occurs? I've read as a rule you should use an amp with a power rating at least 50% more than the speaker rating. So this is why I'm concerned about not getting speakers rated above the amplifier.
Click to expand...
It's not a bad idea to get an amp rated above your speakers... but it also depends on the amp. Better quality amps cranked up shouldn't clip. You wouldn't want a Sony in this regard, but Denon, H/K, some of the Onkyo stuff (to name a few widely available brands) are better in this regard. Beyond that you get in to other manufacturers as well, my friend has a NAD receiver that he's run at almost max for extended periods of time with no clipping problems.

If I buy large, expensive speakers then they would only go in the HT room. If I go for small, portable speakers then they would be moved between HT and PC room. As pointed out in the thread, it's probably not wise to use small (say, Logitech Z-680s) in the HT room, so I might take the Denon amplifier route. Frankly, I have no clue what to look out for with regards to frequency ranges of speakers or subs. I didn't really want to bring speaker buying choice in yet, because I would intend to use the Sonys with the Denon until I learn more about the different speakers available.
Click to expand...
To be honest in a lot of ways its more important to pick speakers and be picky than the receiver. You can get a lot of pretty damn nice receivers for under $400 or $500 and refurbed like what has been suggested is another good way to go. Put the money in to the speakers, you can replace the receiver later a lot more easily too.

I'd rather spend the money on the speakers than the receiver, basically.
 
ilkvest said:
However, you say you could definitely power 150 W speakers with a 50 W/Ch amp, but isn't this when the "clipping" and damage to speakers occurs? I've read as a rule you should use an amp with a power rating at least 50% more than the speaker rating. So this is why I'm concerned about not getting speakers rated above the amplifier.Cheers.
Click to expand...

Clipping can occur if the speakers and underpowered, but it's extremely rare. The problem is, as we've mentioned, that the power handling of a speaker is generally just an arbitrary number. It's very difficult to under power all but the most power hungry and inefficient speakers. As an example, my 2 channel setup is rated 100-200W, for 6-8 months or so I was powered them with a 35W digital amp and they sounded fine and didn't clip. That was an interim solution and the speakers sound better now that they have loads of power to work with, but I was never worried about them being underpowered. I would say if you buy speakers that are anywhere within the 50-200W range you will be fine with just about any decent brand receiver that will do 50-200W (it's likely you'll end up with a 100-150W per channel amp that actually puts out something like 60-100W). I understand your concern of course, I just think you're worrying too much about it - I really don't think you'll run into any issues using something like a Denon 3803/3805 or even a less expensive 2803 or 1804.

emorphien said:
To be honest in a lot of ways its more important to pick speakers and be picky than the receiver. You can get a lot of pretty damn nice receivers for under $400 or $500 and refurbed like what has been suggested is another good way to go. Put the money in to the speakers, you can replace the receiver later a lot more easily too.

I'd rather spend the money on the speakers than the receiver, basically.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with this. As a rule it is suggested that speakers are 50% of your HT budget. I don't really apply this with any precision, but the idea is that if you're spending $300-600 on a receiver, your best bet is to pair them with speakers that cost *at least* as much as the receiver, and hopefully twice+ the cost.

Unfortunately it sounds almost like you need two sets of speakers (one for the computer room one for HT), so if you're going to do a computer only small-ish system I would recommend the b-stock tykes and a refurb receiver with the analog-ins (a denon, onkyo, etc...) so you can use 5.1 during gaming. Then in the future do the HT room separately (example: mains/center/rears that will go down to at least 60Hz and a sub that will go down to 25Hz or lower) and until then perhaps use the tykes+refurb receiver for HT (they will be fine for HT, just not spectacular). Just my $0.02.
 
JackieO said:
I agree 100% with this. As a rule it is suggested that speakers are 50% of your HT budget. I don't really apply this with any precision, but the idea is that if you're spending $300-600 on a receiver, your best bet is to pair them with speakers that cost *at least* as much as the receiver, and hopefully twice+ the cost.
Click to expand...
My receiver was $0.7*x (was x not long before i got it), sub cost me x and my front/center/surrounds together were like 2.2x. I'd rather not divulge prices, other than I spent more than i would have liked to considering I still have to go to grad school. hehe. thus x is an undisclosed value.

The system in my bedroom is frankensteins monster. 20 yr old turntable, eq, CD player and speakers with a new Onkyo stereo receiver. Speakers are soon to go. huge floorstanders are too much for my bedroom, nevermind the kind of listening i do in there. If I want loud with definition i go to the living room. That system has only cost me $200, everything but he receiver was mooched off my parents. At the time I was cash strapped and wanted a decent stereo receiver with a phono input. It's actually got great sound and hopefully the Axioms wont give me the itch to upgrade it.

I agree that for you the b-stock with the Denon is a great setup. I don't know the tykes that well (other than the fanatacism here) but Denon is an excellent brand for a receiver. That way you're not blowing huge amounts of money and can still build a separate system in the HT room without feeling too crazy. Plus you'll have a sweet system to use the computer with.
 
GodsMadClown said:
Go for the ELT rig.
Click to expand...

The ELTs look nicer than the Tykes but for the HT room still seem a little small? I mean don't HT people go for big, impressive looking speakers around the room? :)

The KEFs I was looking at have big, impressive-looking fronts (perhaps too big) and come to about the same price:
http://www.kef.com/products/coda/codahome.html

Of course, I don't know which sounds better until I hear them!

I could get those ELTs and since they are small I could move them to the PC room too, which is a nice option if I later upgrade the HT room speakers.
 
ilkvest said:
The ELTs look nicer than the Tykes but for the HT room still seem a little small? I mean don't HT people go for big, impressive looking speakers around the room? :)

The KEFs I was looking at have big, impressive-looking fronts (perhaps too big) and come to about the same price:
http://www.kef.com/products/coda/codahome.html

Of course, I don't know which sounds better until I hear them!

I could get those ELTs and since they are small I could move them to the PC room too, which is a nice option if I later upgrade the HT room speakers.
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The size of a speaker does have something to do with the sound it will produce, but larger has trade-offs. Either way, bookshleves are more and more popular now that subs are common, and there are arguments for and against them. The ELT mains will do 60Hz+ and the SW-10 sub goes down to something like 30Hz, so a crossover at 80Hz would take care of you from 30Hz-20Khz and would be crossed over at one octave above the mains lowest extension, which is good. Obviously they are timbre matched. One thing worth mentioning is the ELTs are small (12x8x8 or so) but the LRS's weigh 12lbs each, which isn't exactly light. The entire setup is over 100lbs.

Anyway, my point is bigger isn't always necessarily better. I use towers for 2 channel and bookshelves for HT, it's much better to judge a speaker based on it's sound rather than it's size. Generally you can't tell the difference except that floorstanders sometimes have lower extension, but with a good sub that doesn't make much of a difference (except for 2 channel).

Here is a list of speaker manufacturers that make speakers in that price range:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=409362

Here are some ELT reviews. If you read them closely you'll see references to other speaker setups which should give you a good reference of their sound, etc.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/rocket_elt.htm
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volume_11_1/onix-rocket-elt-1-speakers-3-2004.html

As an FYI - I use the ELT's for my home theater (but I use the Cse's up front, which is basically a vertical version of the ELT center which adds a second driver and a midrange). I also use the UFW-10 sub and not the SW-10. While the SW-10 is pretty competent for HT I prefer sealed subs for music, hence the UFW-10 (plus it has lower extension). In any event for $1000 it's hard to beat the ELTs for sound, and obviously fit and finish. There are other options of course, like Energy Take 5's, Ascend CMB-170's all around with an HSU sub, etc... If you want to try and audition the ELTs first check out www.audioenvy.com and look for a local owner.
 
That's a pretty nice list. Polk is a good brand that doesn't get the respect it should.


Your mention of stereo setups now having subs is what i'm worrying about the Axioms. The receiver doesn't have a sub out, and i'm hoping that for my listening intentions I can live with the bass output of the Axioms for a while because I don't really like running subs through the speaker line, I prefer a dedicated connection like with my HT. My stereo receiver has no sub out. Just have to see what happens I guess.
 
Hey, if you want to spend some decent money, then you should also consider a set from Ascend Acoustics w/ a Hsu sub. I own a pair of thier CBM-170 and they are easily the best speakers I heard in my >$400 price range. They have a flat response to ~78 Htz that integrates well with a subwoofer. Bigger is not always better. The subwoofer is the thing that should shoulder the load < 80 Htz.

You can get a pair of thier CMT-340 mains w/ stands for <$600 now. Although bookshelf-sized speakers, when coupled with thier stands, they do look like full towers.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html

Call them up, and I'm sure they'll quote you a a very competitive price for a package around a new Harmon Kardon receiver and Hsu subwoofer.

AV123 will build you a Rocket package around a new Denon Reciever, and thier own line of subwoofers.

Call them up. I spoke with both companies before I bought my CMT-170's. They are both very honest and fiendly companies that want you to have the best sound for the money.

If you are going to drop this kinda cash, you would do well to consider putting in an order for a stereo pair from both retailers and auditioning them in your own home. They both have very liberal return policies, and I suspect that if you ask, they'll credit you the package discount from the stereo purchase when/if you complete the package within a month or so. You'll have to pay the return shipping for the loser, but you will be assured of the sound that you want in your space.

http://www.hometheatersound.com/equipment/ascend_cbm170_cmt340c.htm
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/GoodSound_Ascend_v3.pdf
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/DVDEtc_Ascend_Reprint.pdf
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/reviews/SS_AscendReprint.2.pdf
 
emorphien said:
That's a pretty nice list. Polk is a good brand that doesn't get the respect it should.


Your mention of stereo setups now having subs is what i'm worrying about the Axioms. The receiver doesn't have a sub out, and i'm hoping that for my listening intentions I can live with the bass output of the Axioms for a while because I don't really like running subs through the speaker line, I prefer a dedicated connection like with my HT. My stereo receiver has no sub out. Just have to see what happens I guess.
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It's a bedroom 2-channel setup right? They go to 50Hz so if you can set them to large in the receiver odds are you will have tolerable music playback. There aren't a ton of bookshelves that will extend below 40Hz, so if you're going to watch DVDs you pretty much need a sub, but it sounds like you'll just be listening to music in there. I saw a good review of those M3ti's recently, I wish I could find it.
GodsMadClown said:
Hey, if you want to spend some decent money, then you should also consider a set from Ascend Acoustics w/ a Hsu sub. I own a pair of thier CBM-170 and they are easily the best speakers I heard in my >$400 price range. They have a flat response to ~78 Htz that integrates well with a subwoofer. Bigger is not always better. The subwoofer is the thing that should shoulder the load < 80 Htz.

You can get a pair of thier CMT-340 mains w/ stands for <$600 now. Although bookshelf-sized speakers, when coupled with thier stands, they do look like full towers.
http://www.ascendacoustics.com/pages/products/access/spkstnds/pedstlcmt340.html
Click to expand...

Heh, crazy how many AVS crossover folks there are here. I just had an Ascend owner at my house recently to compare the CBM-170s and 340's to my ELT LRS/Cse setup, needless to say it's pretty friggin' incredible how good both sets of speakers sound for their pricetags. 10 years ago if someone would have told me you could get the kind of accuracy and soundstage you do with these speakers for $500 I would have totally laughed. And you're right, both companies have outstanding service - call either one (or both) and they'll get you rolling.
 
JackieO said:
It's a bedroom 2-channel setup right? They go to 50Hz so if you can set them to large in the receiver odds are you will have tolerable music playback. There aren't a ton of bookshelves that will extend below 40Hz, so if you're going to watch DVDs you pretty much need a sub, but it sounds like you'll just be listening to music in there. I saw a good review of those M3ti's recently, I wish I could find it.
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Yeah, basically it's for music. CDs, records, and some radio. Looking for good quality detailed sound, not earth shattering volume. The bass extension is supposed to be fairly good though so I think they'll make for good monitors for a 2.0 setup.

My receiver doesn't really have a large speaker setting though (or loudness button, or maybe it does... i don't use it either way, and the receiver is currently 400 miles away from me back at my apartment). But I can tweak using my 7 band equalizer to get it where I want it. I wish it were an 11 band, but i mooched it off my parents years ago and it was free.

I suspect my eq might be the next thing to get replaced, the one i have isn't bad but I'd like something more. The whole thing will need updating, new CD player, maybe a new turntable, and at the end probably a new amp but i'm hoping not to have to do all that for quite a while.
 
Equilizers are for compensating for bad equipment. In other words, they're a kludge. What you want is a decently flat response curve so that you hear the sound the way the engineer meant it to be heard. That's what I love about the my Ascends. They are flat as a pancake until they get below 80. Then it just fades away, only reproducing the sounds that it can do well.

P.s. You don't need a receiver w/ a sub output and integrated crossover. You connect the speaker level output to the subwoofer with speaker wire, connect the speakers to the speaker output of the subwoofer, and set the crossover on the back of the sub to integrate.
 
Ya, he is kind in a tough spot without a sub, though. Even music playback is going to be a little weak down low unless he artifically adds some db to the 80Hz and below frequencies. But ya, as soon as you can find a receiver with a sub out and grab yourself a half decent sub (hell, even a reasonable $200 8-10inch thay will extend to 30Hz would be fine), set the crossover and 80Hz and you'll be jammin'.
 
GodsMadClown said:
Equilizers are for compensating for bad equipment. In other words, they're a kludge. What you want is a decently flat response curve so that you hear the sound the way the engineer meant it to be heard. That's what I love about the my Ascends. They are flat as a pancake until they get below 80. Then it just fades away, only reproducing the sounds that it can do well.
Click to expand...
In some ways I'd agree, but in other situations I wouldn't. I'll have to see though once I get the new speakers, with my current speakers I'm using it to bring the treble up a bit and it's a little nicer than just cranking up the treble knob on the receiver.

For the living room system though I don't use one, or even need one.

Ya, he is kind in a tough spot without a sub, though. Even music playback is going to be a little weak down low unless he artifically adds some db to the 80Hz and below frequencies. But ya, as soon as you can find a receiver with a sub out and grab yourself a half decent sub (hell, even a reasonable $200 8-10inch thay will extend to 30Hz would be fine), set the crossover and 80Hz and you'll be jammin'.
Click to expand...
That's the long term plan. :) And hopefully I can keep it "long term" so I don't spend too much money too soon. The problem is finding good receivers with a phono input these days that don't cost a fortune, H/K has one, Denon might, there's an NAD I was eyeballing too that I think had one. Also there's a few other things I've considered. No plans yet.
 
Thanks for all the information...

Will absorb the information in that link, JackieO. Sure, sound is the important factor but need to audition them to know. For a setup in the main room I just feel that looks count as well (of course pictures on the internet could be somewhat deceptive) - just seems "odd" to have tiny speakers next to a big screen in a biggish room, but that's probably from looking at too many elite setups!

GodsMadClown, those CBM-340's certainly look big, as you say I really need to get auditions and at home. Problem is since I live in the UK that might be a problem for a lot of stores and thus brands, I would also prefer to shop locally. Hadn't heard of Ascend or AV123 before you mentioned so they probably don't sell (well) over here.
 
Ah. I made the jingoist assuption that you were in the US. My apologies. You might do well to ask for UK reccomendations at AVSforums.com
 
Ah, I didn't know that either. There are literally a ton of UK brands that rock, though - so you won't have any trouble finding speakers you like. On the big or small thing - ya I guess people are used to seeing giant speakers in HT rooms, but I think that's sort of an outdated view. It's all arguable, and I am sure you can find many opinions supporting floorstanders and bookshelves. With the advent of subs like HSu's, SVS's, ACI's, Rocket subs etc... I don't personally think I will buy another floorstander again, but that's just me. Plus I don't have the room for floorstanders. :D

http://kbhamill.com/cse3.jpg
 
Man, I've just done some looking and there's not much under $400 that has a phono input... and i'm trying to save money so $300 would be a limit... hmm audiogon. lol

I agree Jackie, for the most part you don't really need floor standing speakers anymore, but there's something about the fullness (in the midbass), even with a sub that is nice with a good pair of floorstanders. I've got floorstanders in my living room, but wouldn't be afraid of a good set of bookshelves either. Since I don't just use it for HT, I also do a lot of music listening though I think thats why I still gravitate to floorstanding speakers for a good 2.0 or even 2.1 setup.

Antiquated perhaps. :)
 
When you say phono input you mean the multi-channel analog jacks, right? Or are you talking a sub pre-out? I think I might be confused.

On the midbass floorstander/bookshelf thing - go listen to some Dynaudio Audience 42/52's - 3 inch voil coil makes for some killer upper and midbass and the are something like 12"x8"x10". It's all about how speakers are voiced now. I'm a total midbass whore, which is why I upgraded from the ELT LRS's to the Cse's, the primary difference is a 6db jump through the 200-900Hz range which makes for a really rich midbass. The only reason I'd grab floorstanders over a similar sounding bookshelf is if the internal volume made for some mid 30Hz flat bass, which it's not all that common, and still really not all that needed with subs. Give me a pair of sealed subs over a floorstander with 8 inch woofers anyday. :D
 
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