Ray Tracing Without RT Hardware

[cybereality]

It's really not all that different, though. You are sending rays out into some data structure and testing for collisions. This is true for "real" ray tracing or for certain screen space effects.

 

[IdiotInCharge]

It's really not all that different, though. You are sending rays out into some data structure and testing for collisions. This is true for "real" ray tracing or for certain screen space effects.

Establishing what is and what isn't ray tracing is just one facet of educating enthusiasts on the techniques available and how current and upcoming technology is implementing them...

I'm assuming that we need both a killer app and killer hardware to really make the point stick.

 

[noko]

Establishing what is and what isn't ray tracing is just one facet of educating enthusiasts on the techniques available and how current and upcoming technology is implementing them...

I'm assuming that we need both a killer app and killer hardware to really make the point stick.

Really I think it just comes down to one seeing with one own eyes a benefit overall, if it knocks your socks off so to speak -> not much convincing, colorful marketing and speak would be needed.

 

[cybereality]

Agreed. Control is a good example. It definitely looks far better with ray tracking, and I admit also far better than any post-process effect could do.

But the effect can be subtle in many cases. For example, games have been using baked global illumination for years, so seeing it in real time is not readily apparent.

You also have games that have done a mix of baked lighting and post-process lighting to get a global illumination effect without RT hardware, and they still look good. See Quantum Break,

 

[IdiotInCharge]

Really I think it just comes down to one seeing with one own eyes a benefit overall, if it knocks your socks off so to speak -> not much convincing, colorful marketing and speak would be needed.

Yup. It's going to need faster hardware at lower prices in order to get real buy-in.

But the effect can be subtle in many cases.

This is really the goal, which also makes it hard to grap.

We shouldn't be 'wowed' by ray tracing; we should be surprised by the lack of immersion-breaking effects. I'd liken it to traveling out to the countryside and not hearing the noise of the city.

 

[noko]

Yup. It's going to need faster hardware at lower prices in order to get real buy-in.


This is really the goal, which also makes it hard to grap.

We shouldn't be 'wowed' by ray tracing; we should be surprised by the lack of immersion-breaking effects. I'd liken it to traveling out to the countryside and not hearing the noise of the city.

Exactly! No mirror city's where you can look at the world on way too many surfaces. Subtle such as, hey, that glass over there I can get possibly a better view what is around that corner (maybe yes maybe not) for a strategic move.

 

[scojer]

Bumping this, the youtuber in the original thread put out another Ray Tracing video, you can see how much work went into the Resident Evil Remaster

 

[emphy]

Raytracing on an athlon 3000g (iGPU):

 

[Ready4Dis]

When Navi has it, the narrative will shift I promise you.

Still waiting on this shift to happen.. most are still calling DXR an early feature that's not really that important. It will be a while before games catch up, and that's always been the argument. Now that consoles are out, maybe it'll speed things along (which was also part of the argument, when it was available on more hardware developers would have more reason to support). Oh how our posts hold up .

Anyways, neat screen shot, but not to useful in real life. It would need a bit more information to do a better job; like diffuse value of the pixel so it knows what to reflect and what not to, or luminosity/emiitance value so it knows what is a light source, etc. Implemented in the engine itself where it has access to more data it can look ok, but since it's screen space, you won't even see anything in a mirror that's not on screen which would break the illusion in a lot of instances. Neat for screen shots in areas limited by walls on all sides, and maybe in some games it could make them look a bit better, but really it's just a demo of something that's kind of raytracing but not really.

 

[euskalzabe]

Still waiting on this shift to happen.. most are still calling DXR an early feature that's not really that important. It will be a while before games catch up, and that's always been the argument. Now that consoles are out, maybe it'll speed things along

That’s as expected and we’re already seeing it happen. AAA titles like Watch Dogs and new IP like Godfall using it right out of the gate of the new console cycle is a good sign for everyone.

Also let’s keep in mind - I feel like most of us tend to forget this - that RT isn’t just a cool effect for nice visuals, it actually makes game designers’ life easier. They no longer have to fake all this stuff and then struggle to make it look ok, they turn on realistic lighting and then tweak for performance (yeah I know it’s more involved than just rtx on but you get my point). The dev convenience part will ensure RT will become as entrenched a shaders, fast.

 

[5150Joker]

Still waiting on this shift to happen.. most are still calling DXR an early feature that's not really that important. It will be a while before games catch up, and that's always been the argument. Now that consoles are out, maybe it'll speed things along (which was also part of the argument, when it was available on more hardware developers would have more reason to support). Oh how our posts hold up .

You sound like a politician. “Its not important yet because my favorite side loses but it might be later when they get better!”

 

[chameleoneel]

Also let’s keep in mind - I feel like most of us tend to forget this - that RT isn’t just a cool effect for nice visuals, it actually makes game designers’ life easier. They no longer have to fake all this stuff and then struggle to make it look ok, they turn on realistic lighting and then tweak for performance (yeah I know it’s more involved than just rtx on but you get my point). The dev convenience part will ensure RT will become as entrenched a shaders, fast.

RT has the potential to make development easier. But, we are a long way from consumer hardware which makes it feasible. Right now, RT is a cool effect which actually adds to development complexity. Because devs still have a make a conventional version of the game, as well. And it will be like that for 10+ more years.

And there will be a moment where a dev decides their next game will not have any conventional code for lighting, etc. and that is certainly going to be a rough transition. Its very likely the first games to actually do that, will be console exclusives. Where they don't have to cater to a range of hardware.

 

[Slade]

playing RT on in control and watch dogs legion, I appreciate the immersion factor it brings to play. I was looking through a glass window to see if there was anything important to pick up in game and then enemies spawned behind me in the distance, just outside the audio threshold, but in the reflection, I saw them teleport in and start to scramble to my position. I had a read on what I was going to do next before I even flicked the camera around to confront them.

WD Legion, London comes alive. The city just is more lively when you see and look around and notice the subtle reflections going on all around. My only complaint to be honest is real London is even MORE livelier than what the game populates in terrms of all the objects, cars, people etc. I keep finding myself wanting to pop into a shop to get some Pret-a-manger meals as I play the game because in real life, I practically lived off the stuff whenever I visit there. Instead I see a starrogers in game joke at each pret location and am disappointed.

I find myself kinda wishing games like Destiny 2 and Vermintide 2 used RT. All of a sudden the idea of having a flaming witch as a team mate in a dark area can seem like a good idea AND a bad idea at the same time.

 

[euskalzabe]

RT has the potential to make development easier. But, we are a long way from consumer hardware which makes it feasible. Right now, RT is a cool effect which actually adds to development complexity. Because devs still have a make a conventional version of the game, as well. And it will be like that for 10+ more years.

And there will be a moment where a dev decides their next game will not have any conventional code for lighting, etc. and that is certainly going to be a rough transition. Its very likely the first games to actually do that, will be console exclusives. Where they don't have to cater to a range of hardware.

Oh absolutely, it will definitely take ~10 years for RT to be the main rendering method. I wasn't implying that raster is going away, I don't think it'll ever go away, because it's so much cheaper than RT. That said, in 2021 we're already getting RT enabled 3050 cards, so this is expanding at a rapid clip. Now we just need those 3 or 4 big generational leaps in performance, and we'll have RT enhanced everything - just like pixel shaders 15 years ago.

WD Legion, London comes alive. The city just is more lively when you see and look around and notice the subtle reflections going on all around.

I know what you mean. Every video I've seen in the past few months with RT enabled looks far more grounded to me. It's not just one thing, it's all the little details that are more cohesive, and it feels much more realistic overall. And I've only seen it in videos, I don't even have an RT capable GPU yet! Looking forward to buy one in January.

 

[Ready4Dis]

You sound like a politician. “Its not important yet because my favorite side loses but it might be later when they get better!”

lol, what? That's literally not what I said, but sure. All I said was that it will be a while before games start catching up back then, and still today. They haven't caught up yet. There is MORE chance they will catch up now that more hardware has support, as before it was a lot of work for only being able to run on limited hardware. This has nothing to do with AMD vs Nvidia like you're trying to say, it's that it was very limited before and with the new consoles and AMD finally adding support, it is more widespread, so more likely to start catching on. It's still not there yet, and won't be until at least another GPU cycle (or at the very least, a GPU refresh). My point was, it's not as if AMD has support and now everyone is saying it's a required feature as you portrayed things. It is not an nvidia is winning or amd is winning, that is all in your head and based on your own bias. If AMD came out with it 2 years ago with only a few select GPU's it wouldn't have caught on either. If anyone could have a serious conversation without playing the your a fan boy game it'd be amazing. If a feature is supported on 3 models out of 10 and consoles don't support it... it's not going to gain mainstream traction (or at least it'll be MUCH more difficult). I know it's hard to hear the truth when someone says it's not that important and you completely love nvidia, but that doesn't change anything nor does it make someone an AMD fanboy just because you can't handle someone saying anything that's not 100% positive about your favorite manufacturer.

 

[Ready4Dis]

That’s as expected and we’re already seeing it happen. AAA titles like Watch Dogs and new IP like Godfall using it right out of the gate of the new console cycle is a good sign for everyone.

Also let’s keep in mind - I feel like most of us tend to forget this - that RT isn’t just a cool effect for nice visuals, it actually makes game designers’ life easier. They no longer have to fake all this stuff and then struggle to make it look ok, they turn on realistic lighting and then tweak for performance (yeah I know it’s more involved than just rtx on but you get my point). The dev convenience part will ensure RT will become as entrenched a shaders, fast.

Yeah, it was a matter of time before it started getting more mainstream, but my point was it took the rest of the hardware to have an implementation before it was worth the time for most devs. I don't think non hardware RT will every catch on, just not really there yet and by the time it's viable, all hardware will support it anyways and really low end hardware won't be powerful enough to take advantage anyways. I agree, once we can drop all the other modes of rendering and RT can cast enough rays to get rid of artifacts, it can simplify a lot of things; not just developers but also the artists. Similar to how when PBR started becoming popular where it was kind of standardized to have enough attributes for materials to actually model them good enough to not have to fake and have round-about ways of doing things. RT will simplify lighting in a similar fashion, but it will take a while for the old hardware to go away, which means we'll need fallback paths, which means fake lighting for some time to come.

 

[5150Joker]

If anyone could have a serious conversation without playing the your a fan boy game it'd be amazing. If a feature is supported on 3 models out of 10 and consoles don't support it... it's not going to gain mainstream traction (or at least it'll be MUCH more difficult). I know it's hard to hear the truth when someone says it's not that important and you completely love nvidia, but that doesn't change anything nor does it make someone an AMD fanboy just because you can't handle someone saying anything that's not 100% positive about your favorite manufacturer

Interesting, I don’t recall recently saying RT is important or even needed. In fact I’ve said the opposite and reiterated I don’t even care for it. But you can make up whatever narrative you want that fits your agenda.