Raid with SSDs?

[brfitzp1337]

I'm currently working on a project to upgrade the computers and network in a dentist office. They use one computer as a server for all the patient information.

They currently use a setup of 2 older drivers in RAID 1 with this device The problem is this setup seems to be the bottleneck for their network and at any given time all you hear is the drives thrashing in the server machine.

I want to upgrade their system to a nice fast ssd such as the 840 pro. But i'm unsure whether I should try and get a raid controller and do raid 1 again with the SSDs or if i should just use some kind of backup software to an external usb drive or NAS.

What would be my best option? I'd prefer to not use an external backup so i dont need to mess with other backup software.

Also the machines they use are all core2duo so not too old but not new enough to support sata3.
-since the chipset won't support sata 3 is there a cheaper but just as reliable option for the ssd drive since it wont be able to take advantage of the full speed anyway?

The manual to the software they are running also recomends a 10k rpm drive or better for the operation but I don't think buying a raptor hard drive is the way to go at this point in time. (and i remember those being unreliable back in the day)

It's critical that they never loose the data on this machine so i will talk to them about an offsite backup as well.

Suggestions please. Thanks.

 

[dragonstongue]

all depends on the $ they need or want to put into it, the egg has samsung 840 500gb SSD for $299 right now, that is one hell of a deal, sata 2 vs sata 3 yes it makes a difference, but the speed also more then makes up for it, even in sata 2.

Not all, heck most SSD do not work the best in RAID anyways as they cannot pass thier advanced commands to their controller to keep the drive running at its best.

Why not just go with a SSD as the main, and the main storage just a larger mechanical, speed, yet capacity, or just get that 500gb is the $ is there to do so, hella fast, and quite a bit of storage ~65c per gb is a decent price. I am assuming they use this device as thier system does not handle hotswap/raid via chipset directly?

 

[evilsofa]

I don't know much about server operations but even to a rank amateur like me, it sounds like even a good consumer SSD would die in a month or two.

 

[dragonstongue]

I don't know much about server operations but even to a rank amateur like me, it sounds like even a good consumer SSD would die in a month or two.

depending on how much data is there, it could very well be.. There is lots of enterprise level mechanical and/or SSD for this purpose. If there is enough space left on the drive, the performance will stay high, and unless say for 500gb there is only 50gb left for the drive to do its thing, then yes it can wear out quite fast, but, they also have a heck of a lifetime to them
http://www.anandtech.com/show/6459/samsung-ssd-840-testing-the-endurance-of-tlc-nand

say like 20gb written per day, for like 5 years or something in that line, if the patients files are only opened sometimes, then the drive has enough time to shift and collect as it needs to, this should not be a problem, not sure on the workload obviously, but I do not see there being say 500gb of patients files being opened/closed(written/erase) numerous times per day, at least not in the high gb range.

 

[brfitzp1337]

Right now they arent even using 40gb. So they dont need a ton of space just the speed.

Also they have 7 computers so I really doubt theyre pulling 20gb a day probably closer to 1gb.

 

[drescherjm]

I should try and get a raid controller and do raid 1 again with the SSDs or if i should just use some kind of backup software to an external usb drive or NAS.

I would do both. RAID 1 (or any other raid level) is not a backup so I assume they have no backup at all and that if the raid failed (virus or power supply toasted both drives ...) some or all of their patient information would be gone. Although a SSD raid 1 + Crashplan (or similar) would be a better solution since there will be an offsite backup.

 

[dragonstongue]

I do not see the point of RAID with SSD, you do not get alot of thier advanced features that they need to maintain thier "life" and speed, not sure what system you are currently using right now, but any decent modern SSD even in sata 2 blows the pants off mechanical drives any day.

Raid standard drives sure, SSD are at least 2x faster then mech drives even when raided.

Agility 3 is 500 read 500 write or something like that, I have been using a 60gb as my OS drive for like 3 years now, fast, no problems.

 

[evilsofa]

I just came back and noticed this:

I'd prefer to not use an external backup so i dont need to mess with other backup software.

It's critical that they never loose the data on this machine so i will talk to them about an offsite backup as well.

I'm going to try to be nice and just say that these two statements are... not compatible. Please read up on the 123 rule for backup:

http://dpbestflow.org/backup/backup-overview

If they balk at putting together a real backup system, ask them if their business would go down in flames if they irretrievably lost all of their patient data.

 

[brfitzp1337]

I just came back and noticed this:





I'm going to try to be nice and just say that these two statements are... not compatible. Please read up on the 123 rule for backup:

http://dpbestflow.org/backup/backup-overview

If they balk at putting together a real backup system, ask them if their business would go down in flames if they irretrievably lost all of their patient data.

Thats the thing. I know That raid is not really a backup, i was just protecting against a drive failing. They seem like they wanna go the cheapest route possible and while i can setup an offsite nas. Or get another company that does offsite backups, I'll have to convince them to pay for that.

 

[Adidas4275]

with HIPAA you have to make sure you pass all their guidelines if you use offsite backup that is not in control of your office (sounds like this is a drs office of some sort)

RAID is to increase uptime..... so is it applicable here..... YES
Are SSDs fast..... YES
Do you need 99% uptime on a patient file server for a Drs Office..... YES
Do you need super quick OS function on the server....... ?????

I would use 2 intel SSDs in RAID 1 for OS and 2x WD RE 1 or 2 TB drives in RAID 1 for patient data


Then have 2-3 External 1 or 2 TB drives that are used for nightly backups that the Dr takes home with him or her that are used on a 2 or 3 day rotation.

Patient data is critical for a Drs Office and their source of revenue.

Then have 1 external drive that is rotated in/out of the backup pool monthly and put into a safety deposit box at the bank the business uses.

All of this could be done under $1k and would provided for a 99% uptime (assuming UPSs, hotswap PSUs and other industry norms are being used) and ensure data redundancy in the event of a HDD failure or act of God.

But if you are posting here asking about advice for a businesses tech plan and backup strategy for its most valuable commodity then perhaps it is time for that business to hire a professional IT person or company to manage its hardware and policies.

Since hardware is only as good as the policies written to use it and the people implementing


btw: these are the external drives I would use since the data on the drives is confidential
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822154465

 

[evilsofa]

And if they balk at either of the things Adidas4275 posted above... it's CYA time. Back out of the project and inform them in writing that you can't be responsible for what happens when (not if, when) the drives fail. It's unclear from your posts what your position is there, but if you're just a receptionist or something, don't get pulled into being a free IT department.

 

[brfitzp1337]

with HIPAA you have to make sure you pass all their guidelines if you use offsite backup that is not in control of your office (sounds like this is a drs office of some sort)

RAID is to increase uptime..... so is it applicable here..... YES
Are SSDs fast..... YES
Do you need 99% uptime on a patient file server for a Drs Office..... YES
Do you need super quick OS function on the server....... ?????

I would use 2 intel SSDs in RAID 1 for OS and 2x WD RE 1 or 2 TB drives in RAID 1 for patient data


Then have 2-3 External 1 or 2 TB drives that are used for nightly backups that the Dr takes home with him or her that are used on a 2 or 3 day rotation.

Patient data is critical for a Drs Office and their source of revenue.

Then have 1 external drive that is rotated in/out of the backup pool monthly and put into a safety deposit box at the bank the business uses.

All of this could be done under $1k and would provided for a 99% uptime (assuming UPSs, hotswap PSUs and other industry norms are being used) and ensure data redundancy in the event of a HDD failure or act of God.

But if you are posting here asking about advice for a businesses tech plan and backup strategy for its most valuable commodity then perhaps it is time for that business to hire a professional IT person or company to manage its hardware and policies.

Since hardware is only as good as the policies written to use it and the people implementing


btw: these are the external drives I would use since the data on the drives is confidential
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822154465

Ok thanks, this is all great information. Problem is they bought the office with all of the hardware, and software already in place. They know it needs to be upgraded but want to do so with minimal effort and money spent.

I have already installed UPSs on their main computers.
Currently all data is stored on the server and that is about 35GB total. So no need for terabytes of space. It's a dental office, they're open only 8 hours a day. Yes that data needs to be available 100% during those 8 hours.

Their server is already configured and they're not going to be willing to pay me to do all of the work involved in what you're suggesting at the moment. They're only asking me to help them speed up their client computers and make sure they're not going to loose their data.

Raid 1 with the 2 ssds is what i'm aiming for with an offsite backup such as carbonite, they state that they're hippa compliant on their site.

If i was building this for them completely from scratch I would go a route closer to yours but i'd that't not what they're asking of me and not what they want to pay for.

 

[evilsofa]

Their server is already configured and they're not going to be willing to pay me to do all of the work involved in what you're suggesting at the moment. They're only asking me to help them speed up their client computers and make sure they're not going to loose their data.

If i was building this for them completely from scratch I would go a route closer to yours but i'd that't not what they're asking of me and not what they want to pay for.

So they're basically asking you to do something without spending the money it takes to do it? If you just slap some SSDs in there and they fail and lose data, what can they do to you in addition to suing you?

 

[Adidas4275]

that is good to know that carbonite states they are hippa compliant.... when I was working at a MD and dental office cloud backup was just a pipe dream!

So that works, 500gb drives are only marginally cheaper than 1TB which is why I suggested it,

Does the server have hotswap PSU?


check the onboard motherboard on the server to see if it has a RAID chip in it... if it does then buy 2 intel SSDs and put them in RAID 1

intel's are not the bleeding edge fastest but they have been some of the most reliable drives on the market and the only ones I would use in a business at this point.


if they want their desktops to be faster I am not sure installing SSDs in the server is going to accomplish their goal.


Also I would still have a nightly backup that is on a 2-3 disk rotation that someone takes home, the office I worked at did and we also used our banks safety deposit box on a bimonthly basis.

even with carbonite.....

Patient data is their entire business's revenue stream so I would not ever chance it to something that it out of my own control.


external drives are cheap.... really cheap and Drs offices spend a lot of money on durable goods as well as expendables, adding 2-3 $100 external drives for quick access offsite backup is a no brainer.


in the future you should suggest to them to buy 2 new servers (they don't have to be expensive) and just mirror one to the other.... leaving one turned off unless it is in the process of a (nightly or weekly backup)

This will provide for much better redundancy than having 1 server with an SSD

 

[westrock2000]

I would stick with the RAID 1 so that in case of physical failure there is much less chance of downtime. Offsite backup is fine but how long can they afford to close shop while they image a 40GB file at download speeds?

I can't imagine a small doctors office exceeding the random access capabilities of a modern platter drive. We're the old drives like 4 platter 160GB drives or something?

 

[Unabomber]

Redundancy is always a good thing always.

There are a fair number of 1.5 GB 7200 RPM external units that are as inexpensive as their 1.0 GB counterparts. I realize that you did state that they aren't using anywhere nearly the limits of capacity, but it's better to over-prepare now, than to be caught wanting in the future.

As for combining them with Carbonite, he should be quite well protected...

 

[402blownstroker]

Raid 1 with the 2 ssds is what i'm aiming for with an offsite backup such as carbonite, they state that they're hippa compliant on their site.

Stating complacency and being compliant are two totally different things. I would have either the dentists sign up for the service or have them wave any type of liability for you if you do it. Personally I would not go with a third party solution with HIPPA data involved. Lawsuits involving it are extremely messy.

 

[brfitzp1337]

It's a good thing the HIPPA thing was mentioned, I've heard of it and know generally what it is. I just did some research on it and it's got me thinking how i could protect myself from any possible problems in the future.

I generally do work for a company that installs and maintains restaurant POS systems, a friend of mine knows the dentist that bought the office and they wanted to hire me for the job. The setup is kind of similar to how most of the pos systems are setup except the data in this case is a lot more critical.

I'm going to go with Raid on the 2 SSDs and am going to speak with them about the take home backup or carbonite to see which they prefer.

Also, I've used raid before personally but never had to image drives that are in raid. If i were to remove one of the drives they currently have and plug it in would it function just like a normal drive? Could i just pull one drive and image it to the ssd?

Should i just install the ssds alongside the traditional drives, configure the ssd raid setup then image from the platter drives to the ssds as it it were a normal drive?

I'm pretty much just asking if it's a standard process or if there's some complications with doing this. Thanks