Raid 5 Project

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damarious25

Limp Gawd
Joined
Dec 27, 2010
Messages
227
Current:

Case: Antec 300
PSU: NSpire 650 Watt
Motherboard: Asus M3A78-EMH
CPU: AMD Dual Core 5200+ 2.7GHz
RAM: 4.5GB
GPU: ATI 3450
Controller Cards: NONE
Optical Drives: NONE
Hard Drives: OS 150GB, 3x 1TB non-raid
Operating System: Win Server 08 R2 x64 (msdnaa)

Want:
Controller Card: Decent Raid 5 with 8 drive capacity
Hard Drives: 2TB drives
Speed and benchmarking are not an issue. Do not need speed.

Requests:
Suggestions for great RAID card under $300.00?
2TB HDD suggestions under $135.00?
There are many systems here with WD green EARS and EADS. Elsewhere people say to avoid these for raid storage. Why? Would they work fine if you have a quality controller card?

I have some certs and have been working with computers for years, I've just never ventured into RAID storage. I need help. Whats the different between a raid card and a perc raid card? Is it that perc cards mean you install your own memory? If so can perc cards be found for cheap? I can't afford to buy all in one shot so will be buying new parts often. Plan is to start with raid card and 3x 2TB drives and to expand every 2 months until I have 8x 2TB HDDs in raid 5.

Please help. I'm not a computer noob, just a raid hardware noob.

Pics of current system/workspace: (ignore the dust, I air the thing fairly regularly)






Uploaded with ImageShack.us
 
You should do RAID 6, even though it eats up a bit more disk space, it will allow up to two drives to fail before the array is destroyed. RAID 5 only allows one drive to fail, though it does give you more disk space. Honestly, with that many disks I would go RAID 6, but for arrays of only 3-5 disks, RAID 5 is better for the disk space.
 
PERC just stands for Power Edge RAID Controllers; they meant for Dell systems but typically work in non-Dell systems.

The PERC 5/i is fairly cheap ($100 and under) but it's antiquated and a fair bit slower compared to modern raid cards. Does support RAID5 and 8 drives however. But that's the end of the line as far as expandability, it does not support SAS expanders for additional disks.

I haven't used a PERC 6 so I have no feedback on that choice.
 
Wow. Thanks for all the info so far folks!!! Much appreciated. Ok, so "perc" is a little older then newer RAID cards? Then we can forget about it. Also, I do plan on 8 drives so - ok, I'll go RAID 6. Can I even get a decent RAID 6 card for $350.00 or under? Also, what about drives?
 
Depending on your card, you'll either do FakeRAID or hardware RAID. I'll keep searching for a card for you that supports RAID 6 with hardware, though FakeRAID is good too, it just eats CPU cycles is all. For $350 though, hardware RAID should definitely be used if possible.
 
If you do hardware RAID or onboard RAID, you would need to buy TLER-enabled disks and BBU (battery backup unit) in case of write-back, in order to protect your data.

Do you have a backup of your data? A hardware RAID without TLER-enabled disks wouldn't be that much reliable. Multiple disks could drop, simply if the disks don't respond in time. If you then write to the volume you cannot add any existing disks back again; so you would be in trouble already.

If you have a full backup then this shouldn't be a big problem, but why would you want a hardware controller then? You said that speed wasn't an issue. So what exactly is?

I would rather spend my money on a true backup, that really protects your data.
 
If you go the Fakeraid route keep in mind you'll be at the mercy of the card manufacturer to supply drivers for whatever OS you intend to use. This may or may not be a problem for you, just something to consider.
 
Red Falcon said:
Here: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16816118107

LSI is a great brand and this card has hardware RAID and 512MB cache. I'm not sure you'll find RAID 6 compatibility under that price with a decent brand though.
Click to expand...

I see one connector. I'm looking for two for 8 drives. I'm gonna need to increase the money I spend on a hardware raid 6 card aren't I? Ok. thats why I'm here, to figure out what I need for what I want. Or is there any benefit to having two RAID 5 arrays in one machine?

sub.mesa said:
you would need to buy TLER-enabled disks and BBU (battery backup unit) in case of write-back, in order to protect your data.

Do you have a backup of your data? A hardware RAID without TLER-enabled disks wouldn't be that much reliable. Multiple disks could drop, simply if the disks don't respond in time. If you then write to the volume you cannot add any existing disks back again; so you would be in trouble already.

If you have a full backup then this shouldn't be a big problem, but why would you want a hardware controller then? You said that speed wasn't an issue. So what exactly is?

I would rather spend my money on a true backup, that really protects your data.
Click to expand...

Again this is a big reason why I am here (HDDs). I see some systems in the top list here that use cheaper 2TB WD's.That's why I asked. What is the price range for 2TB RAID HDDs? I see them online for over $200.00. If I can build a RAID setup using the $100.00 2TB HDDs then I'd like to do that.
I don't have full backup (thats what I thought RAID was for, if a disk fails, you replace it without much data loss). Not sure what a BBU is if it's not a UPS.

What I want (the issue) is to safely store my data for my home network. I prefer stability and drives not dropping out of the array over speed. The system will be running 24/7. anything else I start up like ftp or web server will be done on different machines only accessing this media storage machine from time to time.

Baddreams said:
If you go the Fakeraid route keep in mind you'll be at the mercy of the card manufacturer to supply drivers for whatever OS you intend to use. This may or may not be a problem for you, just something to consider.
Click to expand...

This is something I would like advice on as well. Right now it would be for a machine running Server 08 but this might change to UNIX in the distant future (by then it might be time to upgrade the hardware again so maybe this isn't an issue)
 
damarious25 said:
I see one connector. I'm looking for two for 8 drives. I'm gonna need to increase the money I spend on a hardware raid 6 card aren't I? Ok. thats why I'm here, to figure out what I need for what I want. Or is there any benefit to having two RAID 5 arrays in one machine?
Click to expand...
Wouldn't it be much better if you spend your money on two cheaper boxes, but one being a full backup of the other. Like a RAID5 + RAID0; i would prefer that over a single RAID6 anytime.

Just think about what you want to achieve. Data security from a single traditional RAID offers limited protection and whose effectiveness is questionable.

As i think: RAID is bronze, ZFS is silver, Backup is gold.

I see some systems in the top list here that use cheaper 2TB WD's.That's why I asked.
Click to expand...
All hardware RAID that i know and onboard RAID solutions based on Windows proprietary drivers, are affected by a common problem that causes drive dropouts: if the disk does not respond in time, the RAID controller (software or hardware) considers the disk failed and detaches it from the main array. This behavior is very bad since HDDs can have a bad sector and need to perform recovery and thus not respond for some time; it would be crazy to consider the entire disk to be failed, but such is the behavior of virtually all RAID solutions. Except the software RAID available under non-Windows platforms, and also some controllers like LSI i've seen support setting the timeout valuaes to 90 seconds for example.

So if you do not buy TLER disks, labeled as expensive "RAID edition" disks, you might experience a bad sector that causes the entire disk to be dropped/kicked from the RAID array. This can produce multiple disk failures and really lower the reliability of your array. Especially since high-capacity disks have poor UBER ratings, relative to their capacity. So the likelyhood of this occurring increases with the total storage capacity. I.e. 2TB disks are more affected than 250GB disks.

I don't have full backup (thats what I thought RAID was for, if a disk fails, you replace it without much data loss). Not sure what a BBU is if it's not a UPS.
Click to expand...
RAID is not a backup. A backup is a replicated dataset that shares no hardware with the original data. So the backup would - most ideally - be located elsewhere and in a completely different system.

To be realistic, home users can backup easily if they have multiple computers in their home LAN network. They could put some disks in the 'bedroom PC' which is normally off, but when you do work on your bedroom pc you click the backup script that syncs all the data; just an example. Or fully automated backup over the network.

Either way, if you really care for your data, you really should have a backup. There is no substitute.
 
sub.mesa said:
Wouldn't it be much better if you spend your money on two cheaper boxes, but one being a full backup of the other. Like a RAID5 + RAID0; i would prefer that over a single RAID6 anytime. As i think: RAID is bronze, ZFS is silver, Backup is gold.
Click to expand...

From what I can tell your advising me to build a machine with raid (example: 4x2TB HDDs) then build another identical machine that can completely backup the first?

If that is what you mean I can see that working and would be willing to explore that route! Only thing I'm having a little trouble wrapping my head around is space. Thats a large investment to even backup 6-10TB of data... Expensiiiive.

"Like a RAID5 + RAID0" --- ?! Why not just RAID5? How is adding the 0 beneficial? Do you mean this for both machines?

Also, I have a lot of older machines around here. I'm not sure I'd trust them with either role because they're old and parts have been mixed and matched so often i'm not sure what might give out next (mb, psu, OS hdd, nic). Could be a real hassle to rig up two systems and maintain them with the hardware I have. I could salvage cases and psu's no problem but I think i'd need mb x2, cpu x2, ram x2sets, then two controller cards, then HDDs.

sub.mesa said:
Except the software RAID available under non-Windows platforms, and also some controllers like LSI i've seen support setting the timeout valuaes to 90 seconds for example.
Click to expand...

So cheaper drives are an option with the proper (more then likely expensive?) controller?

Sorry for being a bother but I'm really learning and thanks to everyone for all the help so far!
 
It all comes down to how important the data is to you. For your average enthusiast who is building an array at home it is not practical to have 2 mirrored arrays, although that is certainly more trustworthy than any RAID incarnation in a single array. With a limited budget, your options are either the most relatively reliable storage amount you can afford (single RAID 6 array), or a smaller but more robust amount of storage (raid 10, or raid 0/5 arrays in separate machines, etc).

There are also MANY options available for storage with parity, you seem to be leaning towards a hardware controller, which is the option that I recently went with as well. Unfortunately for a decent 8 port RAID card that will do raid 6 you are looking at $550+. I went with an Areca ARC-1880i w/ BBU which added up to ~$730 from Newegg (there are probably places you could get this combination for slightly less). Some other cards that would fit your needs would be an Adaptec 5805, or an LSI 9261-8i. I went with the Areca because of considerations for future expansion (the ability to dual link to an HP SAS expander specifically).

You could also use any number of software solutions like fakeraid or ZFS, which have also been mentioned, but there are considerations with those as well (tied to a certain OS, etc).

As far as data reliability goes this is what I have come up with to suit my needs. My storage server has 8x2TB Hitachi 7K2000s in RAID 6 on the Areca ARC-1880i, this is for storing the bulk of my media. It offers me reasonable peace of mind that barring some sort of catastrophe that data will be safe, but I will not die if I lose it. For more important data, I have decided to have 2 additional 2TB drives in RAID 1 on a different controller. These will contain the OS as well as data that I have deemed to be more important than what is stored on the media array (irreplaceable pictures, my personal documents, etc).

Hope this helps? :)
 
Baddreams said:
If you go the Fakeraid route keep in mind you'll be at the mercy of the card manufacturer to supply drivers for whatever OS you intend to use. This may or may not be a problem for you, just something to consider.
Click to expand...

This is why software RAID is awesome.

Also, OP, the RAID card I posted uses SFF-8087 mini-SAS, so you can connect multiple HDDs to it through the one port.

Also, I'm not saying RAID 5 is bad, I'm using it right now. It's just that RAID 6 has double parity allowing up to 2 drives to fail before the array is toast. You can do RAID 5 with other lower-cost RAID cards, but if more than one drive dies (and with that many drives) it could be bad.


As i think: RAID is bronze, ZFS is silver, Backup is gold.
Click to expand...

That's a really good way to look at it.
 
Keep all the info coming folks.

My brain is telling me (and I'm picturing it) to have two machines with mirrored arrays. My wallet is laughing hysterically. Damn the both of them.

You've all got me confused as to what direction to go. So many great ideas. If mirrored arrays was a goal theoretically I could build a single array for storage and slowly work on (afford) the second until it's ready to go. But by the time the "first" array was finished 3TB drives would probably be the same price as current 2TBs. Inevitable I know, but disheartening.

I'd love to go full backup but financially I can't. So stuck with a single large array, whats some ideas? You've said for over 5 HDDs to go RAID6, fine. What about decent hardware for RAID6? OldSchool suggested a great card, the Areca ARC-1880i but that's $629.99 on the CDN newegg site. My wallet can't do that. Maybe I should consider a smaller RAID5 array?

I mean you all know better then I do so lets say you had to build a cheap reliable RAID array for your folks, or a family member. What do you choose? Goal right now is 6TB usable space with some fault tolerance. I have a small budget (no set amount, just small) so budget is the biggest concern. Lastly, in about 10 months I start a new job and mirrored arrays and all that cool stuff will be an option then. For now I need large, cheap, fault tolerance to hold me off a year.


OldSchool said:
For more important data, I have decided to have 2 additional 2TB drives in RAID 1 on a different controller. These will contain the OS as well as data that I have deemed to be more important than what is stored on the media array (irreplaceable pictures, my personal documents, etc).

Hope this helps? :)
Click to expand...

It does... On another note, I recently quick formatted a 500GB HDD... It was my irreplaceable pictures and personal document HDD. I have it taken out of a machine and placed in bubble wrap until I have more space to try and attempt a recover. Right now I have no space left.

It was a quick format so i'm hoping to get most of the data back. Anyone here ever use recovery software? Or should I just send this puppy away for data recovery?
 
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Is there a reason you want/need to use 2008R2 as the OS? Ubuntu and OS X both support software RAID which is very easy to setup and supports RAID 6 as long as 4 or more disks are present.

Use GetDataBack, it is great file recovery software and should be available for cheap. Handy Recovery is also a good recovery tool.
 
Red Falcon said:
Is there a reason you want/need to use 2008R2 as the OS? Ubuntu and OS X both support software RAID which is very easy to setup and supports RAID 6 as long as 4 or more disks are present.

Use GetDataBack, it is great file recovery software and should be available for cheap. Handy Recovery is also a good recovery tool.
Click to expand...

Well, I plan on getting some certs for Microsoft so I have 08 on my storage machine now. Also I have played with a few distros but not sure I feel comfortable enough with it yet for this purpose.

Yet, the cheapest thing possible would be to buy 4 HDDs and use Linux right? Does it matter if they are TLER or not?!

Handy recovery has been suggested to me by a friends as well. Like I said though, I need the room before I can even try to recover it.
 
TLER is really only good for hardware RAID. Software RAID does not need this and the OS is pretty intelligent about which disks are active, where as a RAID card may not be able to do so, creating the need for TLER.

Do remember, that if only 4 drives are used along with RAID 6, 1/2 of the drive space will be used for parity. Essentially, RAID 6 requires more drive space than RAID 5 due to the double parity, but is a lot better for mission critical data.

Also, Linux is free, but if you already have a copy of 2008 R2 then cost no longer matters.

I prefer Ubuntu server due to it's light-weight, low footprint nature and the fact that it is very robust. 2008R2 is good as well, but only for corporate apps that cost $$$. Both have advantages and disadvantages.

I'd like to hear what sub.mesa has to say. He knows more than most of the other members on here about RAID and I hold his opinion in high value.

Give Ubuntu a try, you can even try the live CD to try the RAID.

When loaded, run the terminal and type: sudo apt-get install mdadm

This is the software RAID app that Linux uses.
 
Ubuntu was the first distro I tried so I bought a few books on it and server ubuntu. No problems there. How many 2TB HDDs do I need for 6TB of usable space in RAID5? 4 or 5?

So cheapest RAID setup for right now is software ubuntu RAID5. Then when I can afford more at once to go hardware RAID? Sounds good to me :)
 
Have you considered other software solutions such as unRAID? It gives you protection against a single drive failure and just needs 1 parity disk. You may want to give the free version a try.

I would never advise hardware RAID for a home user - IMO it does not offer any tangible benefits over software RAID and costs a lot more. Any modern cpu can do parity calculations with no performance hit, and its a lot easier to reconstruct Raid using software tools without relying on a hw vendor.
 
Wow you folks get a lot of questions here similar to mine. Hopefully I'll be bale to help once I get into this more.

Since no ones said much since the suggestion was made to go software RAID on ubuntu, I guess that's what I'm going to do. thanks for all the input. I'll keep the forum updated.
 
Good luck, just make sure to install mdadm first once the OS is loaded.
 
Thanks Red, you've been a lot of help. Got and threads posted with reviews/info on your 1201n? I was thinking about gettin one. Decided on something else but still like the work/mods people do to them :)
 
Get the 1215N, it has the second gen ION IGP with 512MB DDR3 dedicated memory, mine has the first gen with 256MB shared. The 1215N also has a slightly faster CPU and these are good for just about everything.

I do video editing on mine as well as SSH and tons of networking.

Two things I would recommend upgrading would be the RAM (up it to 4GB at least) and the PCI-E wireless NIC. Get an Intel as the Acronis is kind of weak. Also, a SSD will do wonders for speed, load times, heat reduction, and extended battery life.

All in all, they are very good netbooks.
 
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