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R520 Delayed?
- Thread starter Banko
- Start date
tranCendenZ said:
Sweet!
nVidia's on a bit of a roll with SLI and now G70 launching on launch day. Good for them, good for us. Better for us will be a continuation of the back-and-forth battle between ATI and nVidia so here's hoping R520 is teh r0x0r and not teh sux0r.
Sincerely,
Mr. Obvious
Folks,
The plain truth is that ATI screwed up. They bet against SM 3.0 and are now playing catch up. They bet against SLI and are now playing catch up. They jumped on the new process technology bandwagon (90 nm) and it bit them in the ass. Going for the gold (aka 90nm R520) is something us enthusiasts love, but it's usually not the best business practice.
The situation is very similar to how Intel screwed up against AMD. The only difference is nVIDIA is a much better company than AMD, and ATI does not have the market clout and resources that Intel has.
I wish it weren't so, my ATI stock is taking a beating. However my nVIDIA stock is doing nicely
The plain truth is that ATI screwed up. They bet against SM 3.0 and are now playing catch up. They bet against SLI and are now playing catch up. They jumped on the new process technology bandwagon (90 nm) and it bit them in the ass. Going for the gold (aka 90nm R520) is something us enthusiasts love, but it's usually not the best business practice.
The situation is very similar to how Intel screwed up against AMD. The only difference is nVIDIA is a much better company than AMD, and ATI does not have the market clout and resources that Intel has.
I wish it weren't so, my ATI stock is taking a beating. However my nVIDIA stock is doing nicely
Jesus... you people are quick to forget past history. 1-2 generations of cards does NOT mean the end of ATI. If you all remember, both ATI AND Nvidia had paper launch problems with the last generation of cards. And if you look at things as they sit right now, it arguable that ATI's current gen cards are VERY competitive with the Nvidia offerings. I would have to give the nod to NVIDIA in the last round, but it wasn't a decisive victory.
As far as not knowing what Nvidia has up their sleeve next, well.... Nobody really knows what ATI has up their sleeve either. It's entirely possible that the next refresh could put ATI firnly in the lead again. At any rate, I don't really see the 7800 as that far ahead of the current gen ATI products - at least not far enough ahead to write ATI off for the next bout. I do think they need to learn to execute better though. Nvidia obviously learned their lesson with the 7800 - ATI had damn well better not do another paper launch, or they will lose alot of credibility.
Also just a question, but has anyone actually seen any numbers regarding percentage of revenue relating to ATI's high end products? It used to be only a FRACTION of their total revenue, and I haven't seen anything to change this lately. ATI has always excelled at profiting from OEM sales of mainstream systems.
As far as not knowing what Nvidia has up their sleeve next, well.... Nobody really knows what ATI has up their sleeve either. It's entirely possible that the next refresh could put ATI firnly in the lead again. At any rate, I don't really see the 7800 as that far ahead of the current gen ATI products - at least not far enough ahead to write ATI off for the next bout. I do think they need to learn to execute better though. Nvidia obviously learned their lesson with the 7800 - ATI had damn well better not do another paper launch, or they will lose alot of credibility.
Also just a question, but has anyone actually seen any numbers regarding percentage of revenue relating to ATI's high end products? It used to be only a FRACTION of their total revenue, and I haven't seen anything to change this lately. ATI has always excelled at profiting from OEM sales of mainstream systems.
afroide said:
I don't think anyone is necessarily saying that the events of late are going to spell doom for ATI. Clearly they are hurting financially (this quarter at least), and in this current round of cards. They are just at a disadvantage at the moment, that's all. ATI will now be forced to come up with the 7800 GTX 'killer' and the SLI 'killer'. Obviously Crossfire and R520 are supposed to do that. And with the latest news of delay, they just might have the extra time to make sure that happens.
In the end, as it has been said over and over, WE are the ones who ultimately win, because as the two constantly try to outdo each other, we are left with the rewards of that competition.
mrhemmy said:
no. last years x800xtpe was the same price as the 6800 UNLESS a seller wanted to jack up the price for obviously demand purposes. The 6800 ultra really wasn't that far away from it's jacked up prices when you found one.
MAIN FOCUS on mainstream?! what are you smoking? 6800 ultra and gts coming out at 500 and 400 a piece? it too a while for the true mainstream cards to come out. Same time as ati's mainstream cards. They both come out with uber high cards first and then mainstream.
One thing is for certain. I woulnd't be buying any ATI shares right about now. If someone were smart, take a short position, cover that short once the 3rd quarter loss is reported, then buy some shares to capitalize on the upswing. One thing is for certain, ATI is NOT done in the desktop segment, but it will take them a while to recover. That combined with the XBOX 360, should help ATI to build some momentum.
USMC2Hard4U
Supreme [H]ardness
- Joined
- Apr 4, 2003
- Messages
- 6,157
I am not even going to get into the war of who is better etc etc etc.
But all I know is, if ATi wanted to stay in the game with us, they should have had this ready to counter and compete against the 7800GTX.
But all I know is, if ATi wanted to stay in the game with us, they should have had this ready to counter and compete against the 7800GTX.
afroide said:
Why the hell wouldnt you want to buy shares? Ummm, R520 coming soon that's going to sell well, but the real thing is Xbox 360. Why not buy right now when they are cheap than when you'll have to grab later when you're on the tail end of that upswing and then sell when it reaches its peak.
ATi will be making probably three to four times what they normally do when the Xbox 360 comes out, and in 2006 they'll have Nintendo's Revolution for if nothing else a good strong imcome, and if the Rev sells well ATi really would be floating in a sea of money.
etekberg said:Folks,
The plain truth is that ATI screwed up. They bet against SM 3.0 and are now playing catch up. They bet against SLI and are now playing catch up. They jumped on the new process technology bandwagon (90 nm) and it bit them in the ass. Going for the gold (aka 90nm R520) is something us enthusiasts love, but it's usually not the best business practice.
The situation is very similar to how Intel screwed up against AMD. The only difference is nVIDIA is a much better company than AMD, and ATI does not have the market clout and resources that Intel has.
I wish it weren't so, my ATI stock is taking a beating. However my nVIDIA stock is doing nicely
ATI realized they need to stop playing the follower roll to Nvidia or they will never make much money, hence the 90 nm design. Ambitious right now, but it could pay off big time and probably will. There real screw up was underestimating the staying power of AGP. The x800 pro was inferior to the 6800GT, and the x800XT was tough to find. They still have no AGP answer to 6600 GT. ATI management is lacking a certain "vision" for thinking everyone would jump on the PCIe wagon when it offered no real incentives.
Because I do not personally feel that ATI has done anything that will enable them to show a 3rd quarter profit - I think that one more bad quarter will drop the share price further, and I think that they are going to have a bad quarter. Your mind is in the right place, but your timing is off. 3rd quarter will suck, but they should turn it around by the time their 4th quarter results roll in (or at least reverse the trend).
mohammedtaha
2[H]4U
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2004
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- 3,648
They might be delaying it in order to be able to fully supply all cards from all ranges at once. Instead of GTX only.
We don't know what the reason is behind the delay, and none of us have the right to judge them for their delay. Obviously there's a reason behind it, may it be their chipset or video cards or the GPU. We have no idea so we should just take this thread as a "possible" news update.
We don't know what the reason is behind the delay, and none of us have the right to judge them for their delay. Obviously there's a reason behind it, may it be their chipset or video cards or the GPU. We have no idea so we should just take this thread as a "possible" news update.
SSDD
Same Shit Different Day.
People shouldn't bother with these posts. They always erode to the point of a bunch of asshats arguing the same points that have been rehashed over and over again for... YEARS.
nVIDIA was in a similar situtation with the FX, ATI with the 8500, nVIDIA with the TNT, Matrox with the Parhelia, 3dfx with the V5 (which wasn't the deathknell for the company, it was the acquisition of STB). This isn't a new thing guys.
If rumors prove true, it's unfortunate for ATI. However, at this point it is just a rumor. How many times have analysts and reporters been proven to be full of shit for... you guessed it... YEARS.
The guys making decisions in Markham might also have something up their collective sleeves as well. Misinformation can be a useful tool in the business, we've seen it before. I've met most of them and they are a crafty group.
7800GTX is a fairly unimpressive part and an iterative step based on their existing cores. ATI is on a new process with a new architecture, I'd be surprised if they were not delayed. The die shift is the most likely cause of the problems. Has nothing to do with SM 3.0 as some misinformed folks think. Not to mention, my guess is that the resource situation is a bit screwy as well thanks to development for MS/Nintendo's GPU.
FYI for those of you talking about SLI and similar technologies that are too young to have even seen it, might want to recheck your facts.
Lastly ATI had a bad quarter. Big deal, happens to companies all the time. The market still isn't operating on funamentals which is why doom and gloom idiots are coming out of the woodwork.
Same Shit Different Day.
People shouldn't bother with these posts. They always erode to the point of a bunch of asshats arguing the same points that have been rehashed over and over again for... YEARS.
nVIDIA was in a similar situtation with the FX, ATI with the 8500, nVIDIA with the TNT, Matrox with the Parhelia, 3dfx with the V5 (which wasn't the deathknell for the company, it was the acquisition of STB). This isn't a new thing guys.
If rumors prove true, it's unfortunate for ATI. However, at this point it is just a rumor. How many times have analysts and reporters been proven to be full of shit for... you guessed it... YEARS.
The guys making decisions in Markham might also have something up their collective sleeves as well. Misinformation can be a useful tool in the business, we've seen it before. I've met most of them and they are a crafty group.
7800GTX is a fairly unimpressive part and an iterative step based on their existing cores. ATI is on a new process with a new architecture, I'd be surprised if they were not delayed. The die shift is the most likely cause of the problems. Has nothing to do with SM 3.0 as some misinformed folks think. Not to mention, my guess is that the resource situation is a bit screwy as well thanks to development for MS/Nintendo's GPU.
FYI for those of you talking about SLI and similar technologies that are too young to have even seen it, might want to recheck your facts.
Lastly ATI had a bad quarter. Big deal, happens to companies all the time. The market still isn't operating on funamentals which is why doom and gloom idiots are coming out of the woodwork.
Sorry to unload but I'm tired of people that know nothing of business in general, the industry and technology parroting something they heard from another misinformed person that heard something from their friend's mother's sister's hair stylist's fourth cousin while they were getting a salt water enema from someone that knows someone that delivers copier supplies to the company that makes business cards for people that work in a branch office for the company that makes the Dyson Ball Vacuum Cleaner.
geekcomputing
[H]ard|Gawd
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"Someone on B3D made a good point. Do you think Nvidia purposely launched the 7800GTX a day before ATI's earnings report to put "the icing on the cake" as someone put it?"
it would not affect their numbers one bit as ati earnings were done being calculated but it would damage the stock.
it would not affect their numbers one bit as ati earnings were done being calculated but it would damage the stock.
mohammedtaha
2[H]4U
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I doubt it. They had this day planned for atleast 2 weeks before they released it. How would the know when ATi was planning to release their quarter report?
You people worry too much. ATI sacrificed immediate availability of the R520 part to future-proof the company for the next few years. With the X360 launch well ahead of the PS3 launch, ATI can look forward to a huge source of income as the xbox will have the oppertunity to gobble up as much market share as possible and with that squared away ATI can again shift focus back to PC hardware for the R520's refresher. Within three months I'm pretty sure many people will be debating the merits of the R520 vs the 7800GTX and things will return to their chaotic norm
PRIME1 said:
no, not really. You could get one for ~500 but there was usually a waiting limit. I remember at least 6 or 7 websites offering pre-order for $~480. When you sell for a lesser profit you cant afford to buy hundreds as opposed when you sell and gain more profit such as how badly newegg was ripping people off.
Personally i think the 7800 is a very small leap forward. Its increases seem to be purely based on a higher clock and pipe increase much the way the R300 -> R420 and so on were done. Yet the same people defending the 7800 are those that insulted ATI for riding the R300 for so long. I get alot more excited from increased work per clock or radical changes. Nvidias 2-6x AA is finally at that of ATI whos been leading in that department for the last few years. I dont think they deserve anything for that. Its simply about time. And a pipe increase, who didnt see that coming. In the end there really was very little surprise in the card itself.
The people that notice that are those waiting for the R520 which has been kept secret and with very very little leaked knowledge past the G70 even though rumers started in the winter. They are keeping a very tight lid on things and havent made a brag or a peep. Call it a bad sign if you like, but i think Nvidia is about to get stepped on. Best thing i think they could do is offer a noticably superior card at a lesser opening cost in quanitity. Just to rub it in their faces.
They will keep respinning that design until they are satisfied. I dont think this is a company willing to allow itself to have its FX launch. That severely damaged Nvidia and made ATI the major player it is today.
Having the rumor or even the chance that there is an Ultra in the waiting would personaly, if i were an Nvidia user, keep me away from a GTX right now. If they are truely that paranoid i think that also is a very good sign for ATI.
Tygerwoody
Gawd
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maybe ATI should make another 9700 refresh
Tygerwoody said:maybe ATI should make another 9700 refresh
Maybe, its funny how an architecture that's what..... close to 4 years old now can keep up with the latest Nvidia has offered. It took Nvidia 2 almost 3 new cores to match the R300 performance wise and Nvidia just now really grabbed features and image quality.
FanATIc said:
So to recap:
Nvidia is on their 2nd SM3.0 part and ATi hasn't released their first...R520 is delayed and hardly anyone has made a peep about seeing working silicon...Nvidia now has the fastest single card on the planet + SLI + a superior featureset...ATi stock is dropping like a rock...
And according to you, this is all a "very good sign for ATi"...
As always, your name says it all...
^eMpTy^ said:
Lets see, Nvidia is just now on their first part that will be able to use any of SM 3.0s features at a responible leve. R520 will support SM 3.0 right when it needs to. There has been rumors of working silicon, Anand posted them in a E3 article of it running an Xbox 360 game no less. ATi's Crossfire will support R520 most likely, right when it needs to, ATi said that it wouldnt be here till July, and so far they look to be on schedule, its just you who calls it vaporware when that's what its suppose to be right now. ATi could care less about right now, they care about the next 12 months when the Xbox 360 comes out and R520, that's when you'll see their stock fly out of the roof while Nvidia's doesnt.
As always empty, you're biased shows through with flying colors.
^eMpTy^ said:
you made me smile for about 1 second... i remind you that r520 was demod @ computex...
by the way, their is no point being at the second SM3.0 generation, since it's a standard, a well thaught out emplimitation doesnt require tweaking after launch...
by the wat ATIs SM2.0+ has just about all the IQ features of SM3.0, so their isnt really much to worry about...
just as a reminder, last refresh was really twice as fast as current (you can OC a 9800XT as much as you want, you're not catching up with a x800xt, you would need to run it at 1Ghz...), now, you can actually OC a x850xt and reach 7800GTX and even surpass it (from ~ 650 mhz). You can actually reach that on good air (ATI silencer 5) or cheap water...
You do know that NVidia will profit from both console sales? There was an article, can't find the link now, but due to the fact of alot of XBox games using NVidia calls, MS has to pay NV for every XBox360 they sell just so they can emulate it.Skrying said:
SgtSweatySac
Weaksauce
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- 88
Skrying said:
That's it, all kids out of the pool!
It's simple really, buy the best you can at the time for the amount you can afford. 7800GTX now if you can afford it, and if R520 whips the pants off of it six months from now and you can afford it, get it.
Staying loyal to one video card over the other makes about as much sense as staying blindly loyal to one political party or the other. Things change over time, and if you're not willing to change with them, you're gonna be left behind.
Except Wal-Mart that is. I avoid that place like I avoid having a hot poker covered with flesh eating piranah's that are high on PCP shoved up my ass.
FrizzleFried
Limp Gawd
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This is an assinine comment. Dude...FACTS need "back up"...a stated OPINION is just that...and OPINION....
Once again it appears the kiddies have a pissing contest on their hands. Psssssss..... Personally, I am happier than hell with my 6800GT and Radeon 9700PRO....
Jbirney said:
How is this an advantage? nVidia did the safe route and set theirs to default to single card incase of any unforseen incompatibilities. ATI simply did it more aggressively and matched the tiling method with the API in their drivers no matter what the condition, there's no function that actually determines which is better for that game, or even detect if artifacts will show because that method conflicts with the game. There's no reason nVidia couldn't do the same with theirs.
Whitewolf said:Ya I agree. That why I am going to wait for the R520 to come out. This just minor setback for ATI. Think they got too many things in the works but nothing released. When they get it all released they will be doing fine again.
Like what? ATI is busy on their console, yeah, but so is nVidia. Motherboards? ATI already has experience with making chipsets same as nVidia as a lot of ATI guys keep pointing out. DualCards? SLI is built on a 6800 chip which was made from scratch (full R&D), crossfire is patched together on a chip based on an older R300 (Mostly R, much less D). Is ATI working on anything else significant?
IceWind said:
ROTFL
You, sir, just made my day!Actually, he is right though. Intel has the highest market share for video cards, because of all the Intel mobos out there with integrated graphics............... Think of the buttload of intgegrated Intel-based mobos the OEMS use.
Scroatdog said:ROTFL
Actually, he is right though. Intel has the highest market share for video cards, because of all the Intel mobos out there with integrated graphics............... Think of the buttload of intgegrated Intel-based mobos the OEMS use.
they also use them on systems with ad-in cards, so that makes intel market share where it really shouldnt be. its just more conveniant (no order re-adjusting...)
Dr. X said:
Still off topic but:
Back in the day when I went from a GeForce 2 Ti to a Radeon 8500 I noticed a massive difference in IQ.
Its been so long since I had an NVidia card that I would not be a good person to judge IQ between current cards, but I will tell you what I do know:
NVidia has no specs for RAMDAC back in the geforce 1-2 days, and the OEMs could throw on anything they liked, however, ATi included the RAMDAC (the Ragetheatre chip) and later built it in to the GPU (Ragetheatre is now only used for VIVO cards and TV Tuners) and the OEMs were not given a choice (build this or build nothing) which was the reason for the superiour IQ.
ATi has continiued to do this, however I don't know what NVidia is doing these days.