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Quick Question: Copper and Brass cause corrosion?

L

Liquid_Cooled

Gawd
Joined
Sep 28, 2004
Messages
793
I know aluminum and copper in the same loop will cause corrosion (if you just use water), but will copper and brass corrode (if you just use water)?
 
not significantly. brass is mostly copper. additionally, brass and copper tend to form coatings of oxide that protect the metal underneath.
 
Take a look at the plumbing in an older house. No, not lead, that's too old. ;)
Mostly copper and brass. In my home, I have hot water heat (radiators), which are copper pipes with aluminum fins along them.
Gee, sound familiar? Only difference is they're passing heat, not cooling.
Generally won't have a problem with copper and brass or copper and copper. I wouldn't want to risk mixing either with aluminum, though. But I'm paranoid.
 
AreEss said:
Take a look at the plumbing in an older house. No, not lead, that's too old. ;)
Mostly copper and brass. In my home, I have hot water heat (radiators), which are copper pipes with aluminum fins along them.
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meh.....our old place had copper pipes and cast iron rads. had to put in boiler additive every year to deal with corrosion.

key difference: the copper and the aluminium in you situation is not in the same liquid loop.
 
DFI Daishi said:
meh.....our old place had copper pipes and cast iron rads. had to put in boiler additive every year to deal with corrosion.

key difference: the copper and the aluminium in you situation is not in the same liquid loop.
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Actually, the aluminum isn't even in the loop at all. The radiator fins just slide over the copper, which is why it's actually damned inefficient - poor heat transfer.
But yah, cast iron and copper sounds bad.
 
AreEss said:
Actually, the aluminum isn't even in the loop at all. The radiator fins just slide over the copper, which is why it's actually damned inefficient - poor heat transfer.
But yah, cast iron and copper sounds bad.
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i understood that the copper and Al are not in liquid contact, that's why i noted that you situation is different from a watercooling loop.

as for the Cu-Al thermal join......plenty of things that you can do to improve the contact, but CU to Al bonding isn't easy in terms of soldering, brazing or welding. i don't think that it has as large an effect on the efficiency of the system as you would think, though. assuming that you are considering fuel burned for heat produced that is, it does interfere with how quickly the house warms up, it that's how you are looking at efficiency.
 
Liquid_Cooled said:
I know aluminum and copper in the same loop will cause corrosion (if you just use water), but will copper and brass corrode (if you just use water)?
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Differing metals corrode when they're electrochemically dissimilar...the rate of corrosion is based on the difference in their anodic index...and the metal with the higher index is the one corroded. Copper and brass hare very similar V's (given brass is 60-70% copper depending on alloy), and so is aluminum and iron. Steel varies dramatically based on the particular alloy used...but none of them are close enough to copper to make it safe for use.
 
awesome, my copper/brass system should be pretty safe then. of course ill be adding in anti corrosive additive just in case.
 
They will still corrode...additives don't really protect against electrolytic corrosion. But it will be a very slow process.

If you're terribly concerned about it, drop a piece of zinc (or failing that, aluminum) in your reservoir. It'll act as a sacrificial anode and spare your brass totally.
 
masher said:
They will still corrode...additives don't really protect against electrolytic corrosion. But it will be a very slow process.

If you're terribly concerned about it, drop a piece of zinc (or failing that, aluminum) in your reservoir. It'll act as a sacrificial anode and spare your brass totally.
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Just make sure its placed to where it doesnt get sucked into the tubing... ;)

And this trick works... I've seen it done to many rigs.
 
masher said:
They will still corrode...additives don't really protect against electrolytic corrosion. But it will be a very slow process.

If you're terribly concerned about it, drop a piece of zinc (or failing that, aluminum) in your reservoir. It'll act as a sacrificial anode and spare your brass totally.
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im going to use the Thermochill PA120.3 Radiator. According to Thermochill, the tank and tubes are brass (basically all the parts that touch water) and the fins are copper.

so approximately how long would you say the system would start to show signs of corrosion if i dont use a peice of zink (aluminum)? assuming I use anti-corrosive and change out the fluid every 6 months (but not not cleaning out the bloacks each time)?
 
Liquid_Cooled said:
so approximately how long would you say the system would start to show signs of corrosion if i dont use a peice of zink (aluminum)? assuming I use anti-corrosive and change out the fluid every 6 months (but not not cleaning out the bloacks each time)?
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Depends on whether its high brass or low brass, and how conductive the water is...I have no data on how effective those additives really are, but I suspect they, if anything, increase electrolytic corrosion. I would think it would take many months at least, but again the sacrificial anode trick is your best bet.
 
just FYI guys.....a sacrificial anode can generate abrasive particles that can cause premature wear on the pump, plug rad tubes and cause all manner of trouble.

the anti-corosive additives work. i don't know the details and a really don't care, since they do the job.

i always forget that my original version maze 4 GPU is Al topped. i have been using various anti-corrosion formulas all along, and i have had no corrosion problems after in excess of 2 years of opperation with fluid changes every several months.

since Cu and Al have a much greater galvanic potential between them than Cu and brass, i think that use of a small quantity of anti-corrosion additive is a viable method of protecting the hardware indefinately.

given that the automobile antifreeze that i use for my additive has been extensively validated by the auto industry to protect components with differing galvanic potentials in a engine cooling loop for something on the order of 10 years, i don't see why masher is saying that he believes they will worsten the rate of corrosion.
 
DFI Daishi said:
i don't see why masher is saying that he believes they will worsten the rate of corrosion.
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There is no generic blend of corrosion inhibitors for all situations. Many additives use organophosphates. These work great for protecting iron and aluminum, but increase the rate of corrosion on copper and copper alloys (such as brass and bronze). Tolytriazole is excellent for protecting copper alloys, but isn't always included due to cost. Polyphosphates are an excellent general-purpose inhibitor, but perform _very_ poorly when both copper and iron are present.

As for a sacrificial anode forming harmful particles, you have to realize that additives utilize the same electrochemistry to protect against galvanic corrosion. Over time, they'll result in particles from film reversion, scale and sludge formation, and other factors. So flushing and/or filtering is just as essential in both cases.
 
this got me thinking... what about silver-nickel in a copper loop?

I'm running a Swiftech Storm and DD Maze4, and i'm about to add the Aquacool Mosfet cooler ... however, it is listed as:

"ultra-pure electrolytic copper, and it is also silver nickel-plated."
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could this cause a potential corrosion problem?
 
alphakry said:
this got me thinking... what about silver-nickel in a copper loop?
...could this cause a potential corrosion problem?
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Nickel matches copper's anodic index closer than brass even, so it wouldn't cause a problem. If the Ag-Ni alloy had a very high silver content, it could be a bit worse than brass, but not enough to be a major concern.
 
masher said:
There is no generic blend of corrosion inhibitors for all situations. Many additives use organophosphates. These work great for protecting iron and aluminum, but increase the rate of corrosion on copper and copper alloys (such as brass and bronze). Tolytriazole is excellent for protecting copper alloys, but isn't always included due to cost. Polyphosphates are an excellent general-purpose inhibitor, but perform _very_ poorly when both copper and iron are present.

As for a sacrificial anode forming harmful particles, you have to realize that additives utilize the same electrochemistry to protect against galvanic corrosion. Over time, they'll result in particles from film reversion, scale and sludge formation, and other factors. So flushing and/or filtering is just as essential in both cases.
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i stand corrected.

just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living/what are you studying?
 
DFI Daishi said:
i stand corrected.
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No, you weren't incorrect. A good quality inhibitor additive would probably be fine...just that I have more faith when I know exactly whats being used. :)

just out of curiosity, what do you do for a living/what are you studying?
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Failed physics student...dropped out of grad school after a year. Now I work in an IP lab.
 
masher said:
Failed physics student...dropped out of grad school after a year. Now I work in an IP lab.
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IP?

yeah, you did correct me, since i was saying that there is no reason that an automotive anti-corrosive, would fail to protect copper and brass, and you pointed out why that was not the case at all. you were correct, and seem to have done quite a bit more reading on this subject than it. (intro chem 2 text)

comp eng -> honours sci -> earth sci, over here. it's halfway depressing that i'm still going to be an undergrad next year..........i wish that i had started where i am now, but things don't always work out thw way that you think they will...... :eek:
 
DFI Daishi said:
IP?
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Intellectual Property.

i wish that i had started where i am now, but things don't always work out thw way that you think they will.....
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Don't I know it. At least changing majors is still feasible as an undergrad...by the time I realized I'd made a mistake, I didn't have the energy to start over...
 
btw - this thread contains great info regarding mixing metals in loops and I felt it should be bumped in hopes it eventually gets added to the FAQ page
 
Just a note on the information here:

Copper and brass - no need to worry about corrosion at all. Computer will be far outdated first.

Sacrificial anode - no need for this either. Just adding more junk to your loop. Think about it, why don't Swiftech or DD or Alphacool or any other company include a bit O zinc with their kits? NOT NEEDED!

Remember KISS, Keep It Super Simple. If there is no aluminum in the loop a simple solution of dihydrogen oxide and a little amphipathic surfactant will last you quite a while...

Ply
 
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