Should I buy a fubar II dac, or any other dac? I already have a Creative X-fi external dac, is there a big difference between the XFI and the Fubar? The speakers i plan to use them on are going to be the new Swans M200MKIII. Also will i need any audio enhancements like srs sandbox or dfx for these speakers?
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Quick DAC question.
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Mr. B
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The Swans are good speakers but I doubt a DAC would offer much appreciable improvement, especially if you aren't listening to lossless audio. This same question posed at Head-Fi would likely find most people disagreeing with me though.
which x-fi do you have?
honestly I'd have to say "no there is not a big difference", what I mean here is, you aren't going to discover some new alternate universe of clarity and quality if you add the fubar into the mix, in lieu of the x-fi, or between the x-fi and the speakers (yes I realize this is a different model)
get the speakers and then see if you've still got a burning desire to change things around, you may very well be pleasntly surprised
and, much like Mr B, most people on head-fi would probably disagree with me as well
Unless you spend big bucks on a DAC I doubt there is much difference in SQ, if any. A DAC is just not responsible for much SQ difference no matter how much you spend. I have EMU 0404 USB used as a DAC only and am happy with that and never plan to upgrade it unless it fails on me. IMO, those people that tell you there are huge differences are exaggerating the truth because the science just does not support their claims. Same can be said for solid state amps too.
Retronym
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I've owned the EMU 0404 USB, and have owned better, more expensive dacs. They do in fact run circles around it.
The dac chips themselves are not the only part of the equation. Better power supplies and analog output sections are just as important as the chips, which is why you can have a $1000 dac have the same chip as a $10,000 dac, and still have huge differences in sound.
It is this dac http://www.techfuels.com/attachment...creative-x-fi-x-mod-technology-sound-card.jpg but i think ill just buy something else.
yeah, xmod, was hoping you weren't gonna say xmod
the black one, I don't remember what its called, but its black and has a knob and a lot of ports, its a lot better, it can do 5.1, pretty sure it has S/PDIF, things like that
honestly I'd replace the xmod, but I don't think I'd go double the price for the same featureset (in that, both do stereo only, and afaik neither will do 96/24 (if I'm wrong, feel free to correct me), maybe actually get the black x-fi external, or go for an internal card (if thats even possible for you)
but hey, if you want the FUBAR, by all means, grab it, it isn't going to be worse than what you own, and should work out quite nicely for you
If you've got the kind of budget that leaves $1000 or $10,000 slices free for the DAC, sure, there are better options. But until and unless you're spending that kind of money...there really isn't much or anything that will run circles around it much less definitively beat it.
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If we're talking pure sound quality, and disreguard I/O options, the Headamp Pico would be significantly better than the EMU, imo.
Last I checked the EMU was $200, but I've been out of the loop for a while (no pun intended). The Pico goes for ~ $500.
Still more expensive, but hopefully not insurmountable.
Last I checked the EMU was $200, but I've been out of the loop for a while (no pun intended). The Pico goes for ~ $500.
Still more expensive, but hopefully not insurmountable.
I haven't looked at this in a while, but I think the DAC1 was the next step up I actually considered worth taking.
If you're doing a lot of reselling of your used stuff, it becomes a tighter value proposition too...for $500, I wouldn't make the jump, but for $300 I might (speaking purely financially without commentary on the Pico specifically).
If you're doing a lot of reselling of your used stuff, it becomes a tighter value proposition too...for $500, I wouldn't make the jump, but for $300 I might (speaking purely financially without commentary on the Pico specifically).
"only", we've gone from a ~$100 part to a $1000+ part in the course of "only" 10 posts
"only", we've gone from a ~$100 part to a $1000+ part in the course of "only" 10 posts
Welcome to [H]ard|Forum Computer Audio section, sorry about your wallet!
I'm pretty sure this is the one I meant. Until then...the 0404 does a great job for $200.
Well, this is where I disagree. There is no "huge" differences in sound quality if you do a proper DBT.
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Retronym
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It was only after several months of listening to the new dac, that I was able to back to the EMU, and find it lacking. But once you notice it, you really can't help but see it in a glaring way.
perfektrtw
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Right now I have a X-Fi Elite Pro. I bought a Benchmark DAC1 USB last year to try out and I have to say, I did not hear much of any difference at all when compared to my setup now. In this case I was using X-Fi Elite Pro -> Panasonic XR-50 -> Headphones
I ended up returning the DAC1 because I better hear something a little bit more than "well, I might hear a difference.. maybe.... but not really" for over a grand.
I ended up returning the DAC1 because I better hear something a little bit more than "well, I might hear a difference.. maybe.... but not really" for over a grand.
What do you have for speakers or headphones? The best way to have your most desired audio setup is to have neutral components all the way down the line except the DAC or preamp (I would say choose one to set the tone) and the output component (speaker or headphone).
Considering he spent well over 1K for Benchmark DAC1 w/USB I expect he has good headphones too. I've never owned DAC1 so have never compared to EMU 0404, I'm just going by what I know about DBT in audio gear. Many people exaggerate greatly what they hear and he was honest about what he heard and backs up what I said. If he had kept the DAC1 he may have exaggerated what he hears too just to rationalize spending so much money on a DAC. People are like that.
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People also like to exaggerate the extent of other peoples exaggerations, to justify NOT buying better DACs.
I'm just sayin'...
I'm just sayin'...
Well, someone just confirmed what I was telling you so I would have to be short a few bricks to discard his experience and waste over 1G on a new DAC. A DAC converts digital to analog and is not meant to color the sound in any way. An amp takes AC power and stores it in capacitors to feed to the speakers and is not meant to color the sound either. So long as those devices work as they are supposed to then spending big bucks on supposedly superior equipment soon becomes a fools game based on pseudo science and not fact.
Speakers are supposed to reproduce sound. And not distorted sound either. So you think all speakers sound the same regardless of the quality of the components? As long as the individual parts are doing their job, all speakers are supposed to sound the same? Speakers are just voice coil, woofer, crossover (which are just a couple of caps and a circuit board) and some binding posts. Right?
Power supplies are supposed to deliver power. They are just a set of wires and caps, basically. Period. You think all power supplies are made equal? So when [H] gives different ratings for different products you think they are bullshitting too?
Power supplies are supposed to deliver power. They are just a set of wires and caps, basically. Period. You think all power supplies are made equal? So when [H] gives different ratings for different products you think they are bullshitting too?
Speakers are not all supposed to sound the same so don't know why you are using that as a comparison. There has been much data published on this topic and two good quality amps sound pretty much the same. There is even a guy who will pay you 10K if you can tell 2 amps apart in his DBT. I'm betting you couldn't tell an EMU 0404 apart from a DAC1 if I set up a DBT too. This is a controversial topic and has even been banned from discussion at headfi (except in science forum) because it always leads to arguments because of people like you that refuse to believe the science.
perfektrtw
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Sorry about that. I am not sure why I didn't say what headphones I was using. Headphone wise, at the time I had the Alessandro MS2i. Speaker wise I was using Onix Reference I mkII and a UFW-10 subwoofer.
The Alessandro's are very easy to drive from what I understand, so that could be why I wasn't noticing much of a difference. I don't know. I don't know if that matters. The only thing I have noticed a real difference with is with different pairs of speakers and headphones.
I can sure tell you I was damn confused after reading the HeadFi forums for so long, with everyone obsessed with different headphone amps and DACs and all that stuff, and then actually buying a DAC/headphone amp and not being able to really point out any differences in sound.
Personal experience tells me that if something isn't very good, you will notice. However, once you reach a certain thresh hold, where things are working the way they should, and driving your equipment with enough power or whatever, you aren't going to notice a difference.
The Alessandro's are very easy to drive from what I understand, so that could be why I wasn't noticing much of a difference. I don't know. I don't know if that matters. The only thing I have noticed a real difference with is with different pairs of speakers and headphones.
I can sure tell you I was damn confused after reading the HeadFi forums for so long, with everyone obsessed with different headphone amps and DACs and all that stuff, and then actually buying a DAC/headphone amp and not being able to really point out any differences in sound.
Personal experience tells me that if something isn't very good, you will notice. However, once you reach a certain thresh hold, where things are working the way they should, and driving your equipment with enough power or whatever, you aren't going to notice a difference.
Ah, you're right. I forgot people like colored sound. My personal preference is neutral sound so my perfect speakers would be to have neutral sound. Even IF I were to only audition notoriously neutral sounding speakers, they DO sound different. Which is exactly my point. Despite components being similar and designs being similar, the sounds DO sound different.
That's true. If you can't hear difference in quality, then that's fine. Your personal purchases are your personal decisions. However, I have a problem when you claim OTHER people can't tell the difference. Did you turn psychic all of a sudden?
Out of curiosity, are you one of those people who say that you can't tell the difference between different music file types like MP3 versus Vinyl versus SACD, etc.?
Being able to tell the difference between these file types depend largely on the music and recording. More than saying that there's 1% population that has golden ears, I would say more that there's 1% music that has difference between MP3 and 24/96 type files. Also VERY subtle differences, especially depending on gear.
When I actually tried blind tests with my sister giving me random songs to test, I could see why people say there's no difference between file types. Because there rarely ARE differences. It doesn't help that I don't have super high-end gear. Maybe mid-range at most. However, there ARE differences, albeit subtle, on certain songs that I could hear such as a deep bass that's missing in an MP3 versus a 24/96 FLAC (the beginning 10 secs of Permanent Waves by The Kinks).
In the same way, I find there ARE differences in different gear that could be heard, but only in certain circumstances on certain songs with certain mastering.
Admittedly, most of it is voodoo placebo, but I find there ARE times where you could hear the difference.
Vinyl has a very colored sound so you can tell a difference but when it comes to digital audio there have been tests done that prove that people can not tell SACD from CD. I've done DBT that proves there is no discernible audio difference from 192 kb/s and lossless .wav. If you wan to waste your money on pseudo BS then go right ahead.
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Everything I have said is based on science and not opinion. Unlike your claims. This guy gets it so why don't you?
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
"In other pursuits, let's take audiophile equipment for example, we have long known that it takes larger and larger amounts of money to achieve smaller and smaller incremental gains in sound quality. Once you reach a certain plateau, the curve gets very flat, very quickly."
http://www.luminous-landscape.com/reviews/kidding.shtml
"In other pursuits, let's take audiophile equipment for example, we have long known that it takes larger and larger amounts of money to achieve smaller and smaller incremental gains in sound quality. Once you reach a certain plateau, the curve gets very flat, very quickly."
Where's your data that proves me wrong? All you will find to support you are wacko journalist shills that talk out of their arse. All DBT data you can find supports my stance and not yours. If you want to see that data than go peruse headfi where I have posted it in the past because I am not going to spend hours of my time digging them up again for you.
Here are a bunch of links to double blind testing. Now the burden of proof is on you. http://www.head-fi.org/forums/f133/links-double-blind-tests-433591/
The most inconclusive one are the ones in which people try to detect different encodings, but I have already conceded that, with most music (which have mediocre recording and mastering), it is hard to detect the difference in encoding due to encoding being so developed and recording being so bad.
(And no, you can't just call them wacko journalists to dismiss them. These are sound engineers and speaker manufacturers who have been in the business for a long time.)
The most inconclusive one are the ones in which people try to detect different encodings, but I have already conceded that, with most music (which have mediocre recording and mastering), it is hard to detect the difference in encoding due to encoding being so developed and recording being so bad.
(And no, you can't just call them wacko journalists to dismiss them. These are sound engineers and speaker manufacturers who have been in the business for a long time.)
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