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Psyko 5.1 PC Gaming Headset Review @ [H]
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gorb
[H]ard|Gawd
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your bose speakers are bad, eq'd or not
the review said:
in case you missed it the first time, that's terminator salvation
I made zero changes with my AT-700s. Zero. I turned nothing off. they worked and sound great all of the time. No exceptions. No compromises.
Cheers,
Earl Keim
Reviewer of the Psyko 5.1 headset
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After reading your article I started shopping around for another headset as my hopes and dreams of having "the perfect room" on my head were crushed. I came across a company called Tritton that makes some 5.1 and dolby digital certified gaming headsets (AX51, AX Pro, ). I was wondering if you guys had heard of, seen, or used these before. Also, it woudl be awesome to see these put under the [H] microscope. Thanks as always for all your [H] work!
Godmachine
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Then buy the WoW headphones/headset and quit whining.
Some of us love our higher end cans and we can hear the difference. Everyone hears differently.
I've been comtemplating on the WoW headset. It's really the only good wireless headset out there. I just don't know if I can put up with the WoW crap on it. One of the things I'm looking at is how to get rid of all the WoW branding. I'd personally love to see how easy it is to take apart the WoW headset, for things like bondo and painting.
I also never said I wanted the Psyko 5.1 headset. I'm simply saying that some of us want a decent headsets and not headphones. If we didn't care, we'd already be using some Audio-Technica, Sennheisers, etc. Saying the same crap from the WoW thread to this Psyko thread won't change the mind of those who want a headset.
Anyways, I want a wireless set. Now if they find a really good set of wired ones that makes the WoW ones sound like poop, I'd put up with wired.
I also never said I wanted the Psyko 5.1 headset. I'm simply saying that some of us want a decent headsets and not headphones. If we didn't care, we'd already be using some Audio-Technica, Sennheisers, etc. Saying the same crap from the WoW thread to this Psyko thread won't change the mind of those who want a headset.
Anyways, I want a wireless set. Now if they find a really good set of wired ones that makes the WoW ones sound like poop, I'd put up with wired.
MMAOmegaRED
Weaksauce
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That's too bad these headphones suck, I was hoping for something better than my trusty Tritton Axpro True 5.1's but it seems they are still the king of 5.1 headphones. Positioning doesn't mean much if the sound is garbage. I used these headphones for movies and music as much as gaming and they are excellent on all counts.
For the price of all those, you could have bought a set of Sennheiser HD650s which pretty much would have lasted you forever and would have sounded so much better than any of them. I'm just in the process of buying a 2nd hand set of HD650s, and my friend has had a set for a year which he bought 2nd hand that he uses for a few hours each day and they just sound amazing.
Granted I dont really care for 5.1 in games unless it comes through speakers (rather than headphones). I much rather prefer the visceral punch and bang coming through my stereo phones than the hollow lifeless sound I've heard out of the 5.1 sets I've tried.
But there's clearly 2 classes of gamers... those who prefer a good set of stereo phones, and those who prefer the 5.1s. If you love your 5.1 headphones, I'm not going to try and convince you otherwise, but nor will you ever convince me they sound better than a good set of stereo cans.
gorb
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beyerdynamic mmx300
Aren't those just beyerdynamic dt 770's?
100 bucks is pretty steep for a mic.
I dunno, I just picked up a nice 15 dollar usb mic. It's a good foot away from me and picks up my speech just fine.edit: I see now they also come with a usb sound card.
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Warmonger101
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Hey man, by the world's account, I'm one of those "fools" who wasted his money on these Psyko's. They don't suck, and I'm not regurgitating something I've read. I own them and use them as my primary gaming headset.
I'm not saying they're the best in the world, I haven't personally tested every set of headphones. I'll say this, they have replaced my Medusa 5.1 which isn't a bad set themselves. Music wise, I've heard better and I've heard worse. Sound positioning is where they really excel, IMO.
$300 is a lot of money, but if you can afford them, don't cross them off your list until you get a chance to try them for yourself. Fact is, you shouldn't do anything unless you have a chance to see for yourself.
Falkentyne
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They may be based on the DT 770's, but I'm sure the sound isn't quite identical; if anything, I'm guessing they must sound better. If you look on their website, you will see that the DT 770 and MMX300 do *NOT* have the same stats...
I use the MMX 300 and they just completely dominate the Astro A40's for footstep recognition and sound quality, and after burn-in, the bass really opened up (when I first got them, I thought something was wrong, as the bass didnt seem to be as good as the A40's at first..but now they hit both deeper, and cleaner, too).
BTW the USB sound only adds $20 or $30 to the price, if you're in beyer's manufakture page...it is a pretty nifty device, though...
And the mic sounds better than any $15 mic, that's for sure; I think one review compared it to a Senn mic, though not sure of the result. (apparently the clip-on Zalmans have been getting much worse reviews recently; cheaper build now? they seemed to get universal praise when they first came out, you can check for yourself, though...)
I use the MMX 300 and they just completely dominate the Astro A40's for footstep recognition and sound quality, and after burn-in, the bass really opened up (when I first got them, I thought something was wrong, as the bass didnt seem to be as good as the A40's at first..but now they hit both deeper, and cleaner, too).
BTW the USB sound only adds $20 or $30 to the price, if you're in beyer's manufakture page...it is a pretty nifty device, though...
And the mic sounds better than any $15 mic, that's for sure; I think one review compared it to a Senn mic, though not sure of the result. (apparently the clip-on Zalmans have been getting much worse reviews recently; cheaper build now? they seemed to get universal praise when they first came out, you can check for yourself, though...)
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MMAOmegaRED
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Psyko's are hard to find as it is and impossible to demo without purchasing them, I paid over $200 for my Axpros because of the reviews and I was willing to shell out the cash for Psykos if they had stellar reviews. If the Hard review is any indication then these aren't worth it.
gorb
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Aren't those just beyerdynamic dt 770's?
100 bucks is pretty steep for a mic.
edit: I see now they also come with a usb sound card.
i certainly wouldn't buy them, but the dude wants a fuckin headset because he can't be bothered to use a separate mic :/
Neurofreeze
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I've posted on these boards and many others that I really, really didn't like the whole ideas behind the Psykos and 5.1 fanatics came at me left and right.
I very seriously doubt the sound quality issues have anything to do with the quality of the drivers or the amp. It's all in the implementation.
The whole problem is in fact its "revolutionary" technology. With the Psyko 5.1's, you are literally listening to sound through tubes. They are not "wave guides." There is no such thing as a "wave guide." It's a marketing term. They are simply tubes and will completely distort sound as such. If you think you can preserve audio fidelity when you're pumping the sound through sets of tiny tubes (which have multiple bends to boot) then I have a bridge to sell you. This is why, in the article, Earl described the sound as cupping your hands over them.
There is nothing to be done about it. You're sacrificing sound quality for artificially, directionally accurate, but depth-less sound. It's just the design trade-off you're paying and no amount of money will fix it in future designs.
I very seriously doubt the sound quality issues have anything to do with the quality of the drivers or the amp. It's all in the implementation.
The whole problem is in fact its "revolutionary" technology. With the Psyko 5.1's, you are literally listening to sound through tubes. They are not "wave guides." There is no such thing as a "wave guide." It's a marketing term. They are simply tubes and will completely distort sound as such. If you think you can preserve audio fidelity when you're pumping the sound through sets of tiny tubes (which have multiple bends to boot) then I have a bridge to sell you. This is why, in the article, Earl described the sound as cupping your hands over them.
There is nothing to be done about it. You're sacrificing sound quality for artificially, directionally accurate, but depth-less sound. It's just the design trade-off you're paying and no amount of money will fix it in future designs.
Head_Psyko
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I'd be glad to discuss further the technical side of this technology and the psychoacoustics of how people perceive sound direction. While the technology is unique and interesting, the bottom line is that we have many gaming customers that are satisfied and excited about the technology. We are investigating if there was a quality problem with the sets where people say they sound bad. We are a start-up company introducing a completely new technology and are working to continually improve. We value the feedback from everyone that has Psyko headsets. Of course we want to hear from both those that love them and those where there is a problem. The easiest way to discuss this directly with us is at the Psyko info email address.
We understand that there are those that are skeptical of this technology and those that are disappointed in other surround sound headphone technologies. For those that have not tested Psykos we understand that the best way to judge for yourself is to test them yourself, so we offer our 15-day money back guarantee to give you that opportunity. These are gaming headphones that give you instant awareness of the direction of every sound and that can give you a technical edge in the game, particularly FPS PC games. That is the focus for this product.
By the way, Waveguide is a scientific term used in acoustics and electromagnetics. A common example of a waveguide is fibre optic cable to guide light waves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveguide The concept is very simple, and very powerful.
We understand that there are those that are skeptical of this technology and those that are disappointed in other surround sound headphone technologies. For those that have not tested Psykos we understand that the best way to judge for yourself is to test them yourself, so we offer our 15-day money back guarantee to give you that opportunity. These are gaming headphones that give you instant awareness of the direction of every sound and that can give you a technical edge in the game, particularly FPS PC games. That is the focus for this product.
By the way, Waveguide is a scientific term used in acoustics and electromagnetics. A common example of a waveguide is fibre optic cable to guide light waves. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waveguide The concept is very simple, and very powerful.
Tubes can work just fine for audio, just has to be done right. Nearly every bass speaker these days makes use of them. Sealed woofers/subwoofers are exceedingly rare. They are all vented. What that meas is they have one or more tubes in calculates locations at calculated lengths and sizes. Reason is you want to reduce the back pressure to increase bass, however if you just open the back of the speaker you'll get interference and cancel out the waves. So you use a precise port, which can accurately be called a wave guide since it does just that, to make sure that it works with the speaker, not against it. In general in a 2nd order ported system the bass comes from the cone above Fs, and the bass comes from the port below Fs.
Also you can get more complex arrangements. Some car subs are 4th or 6th order having arrangements of guides on the front or front and rear of the driver. Then there are transmission line speakers, where you extend the length of the port such that it changes the phase of the bass waves and reenforces sound around Fs. Bose also likes transmission lines in their wave radios.
Regardless, fucking with sound waves via tubes and their lengths is well established in sound. Heck, that's how most brasswind instruments work. The frequency of the note they play is a function of the length of the combined tubes opened in them and how many times the player causes the air to vibrate in the instrument. this is most obvious in a Trombone where as the slide is moved out, the pitch lowers since the length of the waves is extended.
However, none of that means sticking tubes in headphones will give good sound or surround sound.
Falkentyne
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Are you trying to insult me, dude? I can pretty much guarantee my Beyerdynamic MMX 300 sounds better than anything you're using that isn't $200 and up. Including Sennisher HD 280's, 555's, 580's, Audio Technica AD700's, and so on. And they compete with higher end audiophile cans like the HD650's, Audio Technica A700's (a nice set of cans, btw), DT880's, etc...
Yeah, I pay for convenience. But I also pay for quality. And Beyer is known for its quality. Almost the entire headset is made of metal; only a few plastic parts, and the only thing that feels "flimsy" are the split headphone/mic cord jacks (often an issue with such designs, unless you want an extra set of wires dangling around).
BTW note that even though they're based on the DT 770's, the stats are different (go to beyer's page and compare the frequency range on the 32 omh DT770's and the MMX 300), so it can be inferred that the MMX 300 should sound better, or at least slightly different.
and they're closed, and cancel a lot of noise, which I need in my noisy apartment.
And FYI, the mic on the beyers is not some $10 low quality mic, it's a pretty expensive broadcast mic and works very well, and alot better than those Zalman clip-ons, if some of the recent amazon reviews are any indication (possible lower quality manufacturing than in the past?). Beyerdynamic is not known for producing shitty cans. Many of beyer's lower end audiophile stuff have midrange as their weakest point (nothing an EQ can't fix), but many non electrostatic headsets that have excellent bass response also tend to have issues with midrange or some other facet (certain music types, soundstage, positioning, bass, harshness, whatever...all depends on what your ears prefer for the music you enjoy).
Find me another headset, much less a normal audiophile headphone, that comes with a 5 year warranty (not even Sennisher's come with a warranty that long). Companies offer long warranties because they believe their product is high quality and very durable. I checked and I couldn't find any other manufacturer that offered a warranty like that...
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gorb
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lolwut
how am i insulting you? i wasnt even talking to you. the only reason why i even brought up the mmx300s were because some dude wanted a headset:
and all i said was this to the other dude:
nothing to you. anyway, if you need a fuckin explanation, i have no desire to buy a $400 headset. i know the mmx300 is great, i'd rather make do with the less expensive and comparable dt880s or what have you and the zalman mic...but i'd rather spend that money on other things like speakers anyway.
how am i insulting you? i wasnt even talking to you. the only reason why i even brought up the mmx300s were because some dude wanted a headset:
and all i said was this to the other dude:
nothing to you. anyway, if you need a fuckin explanation, i have no desire to buy a $400 headset. i know the mmx300 is great, i'd rather make do with the less expensive and comparable dt880s or what have you and the zalman mic...but i'd rather spend that money on other things like speakers anyway.
Fair play for coming onto the board to discuss these headphones. I would be very excited about trying them out. Personally I haven't found any stereo headphones that are as good as the medusa 5.1 headsets for positional audio in my favorite FPS counterstrike source. And I have tried a lot of headphones, with and without headphone amps and tried them with dolby headphone, cmss3d and DX2. I just know my KDR (kill to death ratio) is much higher with the medusa's. I make several kills based on sound alone with my medusa's.
I made the switch last year to good stereo headphones based on all the advice here. It was all good advice, they did sound much better and I got good positional audio, but, here is the thing, not once have I ever been accused of wall hacking with the stereo headphones, no matter what technology I use use. But, with the medusa's on I used to get accused of hacking alot.
For me that sums it up really, 5.1 headphones don't sound as good, but, for the games I play positional accuracy is so much more important.
Well said. I too play very much by sound, although I am not a fierce competition player. Someone earlier in this thread commented that you don't need five ears to hear surround sound ... which is misleading; well-positioned surround sound can significantly enhance the gaming experience. I believe the difference between between crappy sound and accurately positioned surround sound is as significant as the difference between crappy sound and no sound at all in an FPS game. Try playing any FPS competitively with no sound....
Anyway, those who want to listen to music, get some good earbuds/headphones with top-notch SQ You want to game, get a serious gaming headset. Don't expect to find both in the same package at a reasonable price, at least not yet.
Head_Psyko
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To explain why we use waveguides let me start with what the psychoacoustic research shows. The research says there are three elements of sound that humans use to perceive sound direction and all three have to be in balance for the full effect. The first two: 1) the timing difference and 2) volume difference between right and left ears. These two cues let your brain decode the angle of the sound from the center plane of your head. No timing difference means that the sound hits both ears at the same time and is on that center plane (either in front or back). As the sound moves to one side the sound hits the near ear slightly before the far ear (and is louder in the near ear than the far ear). 3) But this does not yet tell you if the sound is in front or behind you. For that your brain needs the signature of the sound reflecting off your outer ear. If the sound flows from in front some of the sound enters your ear canal directly, and some reflects off the ear and then enters the ear canal. Now you have two sound waves traveling down the each ear canal. Some frequencies add up and some cancel to give you a signature of the sound. Everyone's ears are as unique as fingerprints so the sound signature for front and rear sound is unique to each person.
Section 4.1 and 4.2 of this paper covers this topic:
http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/tech/aureal1_tech.htm
The Psyko headphones use waveguides to deliver those 3 elements. The sound from every speaker is positioned to give the correct timing and volume difference to each ear. The front sounds flow through the waveguides to the front of BOTH ears (with the correct timing difference). So the sound reflects off your ears to enter the ear canal with the correct sound signature. The rear sound flow through the rear waveguide and flows from the rear of your ear and your ear blocks the same frequencies as if the sound flowed from behind you in the room.
For more on how Psyko does it see the How It Works video
http://www.psykoaudio.com/
http://www.psykoaudio.com/index.php/Psyko-5.1-Headset.html
There are two traditional ways to do surround sound in headphones.
1) Simulation surround sound methods (sometimes called DSP methods, sometimes called HRTF) are made to be used with traditional stereo headphones and deliver a synthetic signature. If your ears match the algorithm they use they can sound great. But, for most people it may be like wearing the wrong size of shoe. It may not fit you. This method also processes the sound signal so there has to be some time taken for the processor. That creates a slight lag in the time for the signal to be played.
2) the second traditional method puts multiple speakers around each ear. The left sounds are played in one of the left speakers. The right sounds are played in one of the right speakers. This does not deliver the timing difference between each ear and the position of those speakers does not create a flow of sound across the front or rear of the ear.
Section 4.1 and 4.2 of this paper covers this topic:
http://gilmore2.chem.northwestern.edu/tech/aureal1_tech.htm
The Psyko headphones use waveguides to deliver those 3 elements. The sound from every speaker is positioned to give the correct timing and volume difference to each ear. The front sounds flow through the waveguides to the front of BOTH ears (with the correct timing difference). So the sound reflects off your ears to enter the ear canal with the correct sound signature. The rear sound flow through the rear waveguide and flows from the rear of your ear and your ear blocks the same frequencies as if the sound flowed from behind you in the room.
For more on how Psyko does it see the How It Works video
http://www.psykoaudio.com/
http://www.psykoaudio.com/index.php/Psyko-5.1-Headset.html
There are two traditional ways to do surround sound in headphones.
1) Simulation surround sound methods (sometimes called DSP methods, sometimes called HRTF) are made to be used with traditional stereo headphones and deliver a synthetic signature. If your ears match the algorithm they use they can sound great. But, for most people it may be like wearing the wrong size of shoe. It may not fit you. This method also processes the sound signal so there has to be some time taken for the processor. That creates a slight lag in the time for the signal to be played.
2) the second traditional method puts multiple speakers around each ear. The left sounds are played in one of the left speakers. The right sounds are played in one of the right speakers. This does not deliver the timing difference between each ear and the position of those speakers does not create a flow of sound across the front or rear of the ear.
Playing music through a tube "waveguide" will make it sound crap. try listening through a paper towel tube and see what i mean No matter how much DSP power you have you can not "pre crapify" sound so playing it through a tube will sound ok. resonance is added, and those resonances add new peaks and ringing at certain frequencies which will always be the same no matter what sound passes through.
Also those headphones look really cheap. you would think they could do a bit better than a bit of toy plastic for that much money.
No matter how much DSP power you have you can not "pre crapify" sound so playing it through a tube will sound ok. resonance is added, and those resonances add new peaks and ringing at certain frequencies which will always be the same no matter what sound passes through.Also those headphones look really cheap. you would think they could do a bit better than a bit of toy plastic for that much money.
Warmonger101
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Hard's review is just one opinion. There are other reviews, if you care to look. You'll see that that others have a totally different opinion about these headphones. As for setting these things up, yeah, I made some adjustments, which took me less than 3 minutes. Hell, I'm running Crossfire 3 months, and every damn release of new drivers I'm making adjustments. Every game requires a new adjustment. People criticize ATI drivers day in day out and still by ATI hardware. So to criticize these phones because they may require a slight system adjustment is just a phony argument.
Warmonger101
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Playing music through a tube "waveguide" will make it sound crap. try listening through a paper towel tube and see what i mean
Also those headphones look really cheap. you would think they could do a bit better than a bit of toy plastic for that much money.
I hate to bring up Bose again, but they're making zillions using that waveguide technique.
gorb
[H]ard|Gawd
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bose is making money because they charge a ton of money for cheaply made products and have a marketing department that somehow manages to convince people into paying those prices
If you would actually compare the two, you would see that the two are physically pretty different in purpose. The Psyko apparently has small tubes all the sound is played through, in order to physically shift the apparent source of the sound from one place to another. (Also connects the two ears, timing differences, etc, etc, which is all besides the point.)
The Bose waveguide system has speakers with their main faces exposed to open air on the front of the system like normal speakers. Their waveguide thing is a method of porting the enclosure.
http://en.red-dot.org/fileadmin/bilder/Presse/Material_pd_2008/Waveguide_inside-view.jpg
You can't really compare the two.
rat
Supreme [H]ardness
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Apple makes zillions off iPods and iTunes. Doesn't change that the iPod is, at best, derivative... and iTunes itself is a bloated piece of crap.
Never underestimate the power of marketing and the gullibility of customers.
Warmonger101
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Please, don't talk to me about qulibility. This entire industry trumps "Plug & Play", yet there's not one serious computer gamer in this forum that hasn't spent hours, hours and more hours trying to get his\her brand new "Plug & Play" Gizmo to play nice with his working computer. Not one person here would tolerate having to spend hours & hours, after the purchase, making the TV, refrigerator or other household applience work. Thus, the "Gamer" is the most GUlLiBLE of all consumers. Please, leave gullibility out of the conversation when comparing one gamer to another. We're all gullible; if we were to hold this industry to the standards that we demand from other manufacturers of consumer products, ATI, nVidia would lead the pack of businesses gone sour.
Except the majority of PC gamers know what they're in for and to a certain extend enjoy fucking around with their PCs. If they didn't, they'd buy a console instead. You can't call someone gullible for repairing their own car if they enjoy doing it.
And the choice to spend hours and hours screwing around with drivers and hardware is a "choice" of the gamer. I've set up PCs for friends, spent half an hour installing a few programs and drivers, then they take it and game on it without touching it again. I've rarely NEEDED to screw around to get gaming things working on my computer... though I have spent many hours getting my work software up and running, that's work though, not entertainment
Warmonger101
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Bose directs the sound eminating from the rear side of the speaker, then by porting it via a separate path, allowing it to disperse, in phase with the sound produced by the front surface of the speaker. I purchased Bose speakers before they were a household name, back in 1975. There are better speakers out there, but for the money, they were the best sounding in my price range. Also, I had an inside track. While everyone else was purchasing the floor models, my entire system consisted of "tweaked demo" products. My boss was school mates with Bob Carver.