ps3 hard to code for?

[saqdeez]

i read this about a week ago where some big big shot (carmack?) was saying PS3 is a pain in the arse to code for and xbox360 is easy. Link??

 

[PuppettMaster001]

http://www.megagames.com/news/html/console/idlovesx360-ps3notyet.shtml

 

[saqdeez]

thanks dude!

 

[SpeedRunner]

Developers said that the PS2 was really hard to code for also... and look how many games came out for it. That statement doesnt mean much.

 

[Dallows]

all that means is that developers actually have to try to make games that look good. the more they try the better they will get and the better games they will make. It'll also mean don't expect the first wave of games to show off the ps3's power, it'll take some time for the developers to get used to and get to know the ps3. I don't even think most of the developers for ps2 really touched the surface with what it could do. I mean look at GT4. A team that actually took time to program to the ps2 instead of throwing something together.

 

[Sly]

all that means is that developers actually have to try to make games that look good. the more they try the better they will get and the better games they will make. It'll also mean don't expect the first wave of games to show off the ps3's power, it'll take some time for the developers to get used to and get to know the ps3. I don't even think most of the developers for ps2 really touched the surface with what it could do. I mean look at GT4. A team that actually took time to program to the ps2 instead of throwing something together.

I can't put it into the proper words, but just because a console is a pain in the arse to make games on doesn't mean the games on it will automatically be good.

On the contrary...

I don't even think most of the developers for ps2 really touched the surface with what it could do.

This can also mean that the difficulty/reward ratio for making a game that does isn't worth it.

What's the developers overall comments on the PS2 and PS3 devkits?

 

[Elledan]

Both XBox 360 and the PS3 are difficult to program for:

- XBox 360: triple core, requiring console programmers to make full use of multi-threaded programming, or risk losing performance. Each core isn't like a standard uni-processor either. They've been stripped of numerous units in order to 'simplify' them. Whether or not this will cripple performance remains to be seen.

What the effect of this on porting PC games (to/from PC) is is also unknown.

- PS3: one standard PPC core, eight stripped down, cache-less vector cores. Requires a completely new way of programming, making developing games for the PS2 look easy. Development tools can make life easier, but will take some time to mature.

The PS3, like the PS2, probably won't be really known for PC ports, but I don't imagine it'll be easy.

- Revolution: uniprocessor, single PPC. Standard, straightforward, relatively cheap to develop for. Typically Nintendo.

If you ask me, I'd say that the XBox 360 and PS3 have a lot to prove, whereas the Revolution, even if it turned out to be another N64, would still make Nintendo a handsome profit

Also, cross-console releases are going to be a nightmare, although the brute force of the X360 and PS3 might help ease the pain.

 

[Talz]

Really I think most that pay attention to these things have expected the PS3 to be the hardest to program for. It's design is just so different, maxing it out seems like it would have to take more work. The real potential won't be seen until years into it on a few exclusive titles.

 

[Draax]

Developers have said that both the PS3 and the XBOX360 are hard to program for. I think its just a bunch of lazy developers who are used to single core processors using brute force (high clock speed) to plow through sloppy code.

Developers will learn to program, effectively, for consoles, it just may take a while. I dont expects any games at launch, of either console, to use the full potential of the hardware.

 

[Elledan]

Developers have said that both the PS3 and the XBOX360 are hard to program for. I think its just a bunch of lazy developers who are used to single core processors using brute force (high clock speed) to plow through sloppy code.

Developers will learn to program, effectively, for consoles, it just may take a while. I dont expects any games at launch, of either console, to use the full potential of the hardware.

So you're saying that programming SMP-style, with multiple concurrent threads is just as easy as programming for a uniprocessor system once you get used to it?

As long as those threads do not touch the same data or attempt to share other resources you're basically correct, but if you want to get the most performance out of an SMP system, things can become ugly very quickly.

While we're on this topic, look at what Hannibal over at Ars has to say about the XBox 360 CPUs:

Furthermore, the Xenon may be capable of running six threads at once, but the three types of branch-intensive code listed above are not as amenable to high levels of thread-level parallelization as graphics code. On the other hand, these types of code do benefit greatly from out-of-order execution, which Xenon lacks completely, a decent amount of execution core width, which Xenon also lacks; branch prediction hardware, which Xenon is probably short on; and large caches, which Xenon is definitely short on. The end result is a recipe for a console that provides developers with a wealth of graphics resources but that asks them to do more with less on the non-graphical side of gaming.

Still, there is some hope on that front. In the PC market where there are multiple processors to support, developers can't fine-tune games for a specific CPU. This heterogeneity of hardware especially hurts with platform-sensitive optimizations like branch hints, which is one reason they don't get used much. In contrast, with the Xenon, the hardware will be fixed, which means that programmers can go all-out in profiling and optimizing branchy game control, AI, and physics code using every trick in the book. Furthermore, console coders can also take heavy advantage of prefetching to overcome the Xenon's cache size limitations. So it's quite possible that as time goes on developers will find ways to get much better branch-intensive code performance out of the hardware. Just don't count on it in the first generation of games, though.

http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/7

I'd imagine that the same is true for the PS3's Cell CPU. Naturally, this means that optimizing a game for a particular console will make cross-platform releases that much more expensive. Only PCs and Nintendo's Revolution will share the characteristic of being (relatively) easy to port to.

 

[Sly]

Both XBox 360 and the PS3 are difficult to program for:

Perhaps it'll be a contest on which has the better devkit?

Also, cross-console releases are going to be a nightmare, although the brute force of the X360 and PS3 might help ease the pain.

Been thinking of this too. Making a game that's made to take full advantage of a particular consoles features would have a hard time getting ported to another. We might be seeing more exclusives unless the game was very high profile. If the PS3 was more diffucult to program for, we might see more PS3 titles ported over to the XBoX360 but not the other way around.

 

[Draax]

So you're saying that programming SMP-style, with multiple concurrent threads is just as easy as programming for a uniprocessor system once you get used to it?

No, I didn't say that all. What I said is that lazy programs use shotty code, because they are use to single core processors powering through the code. I said it would easier, as time goes on, just like anything, because they will get used to programing for it.

 

[Elledan]

No, I didn't say that all. What I said is that lazy programs use shotty code, because they are use to single core processors powering through the code. I said it would easier, as time goes on, just like anything, because they will get used to programing for it.

Well, that's a given

The PS2, when first shown to the world, was portrayed as being capable of producing amazing graphics (and the demos did look amazing, just like the PS3's did this time) thanks to its 'Emotion Engine', which according to PS2 developers was 'a pain to program for', to put it in mild terms ^_-

If you're to compare the first PS2 games to newly released ones the difference is astounding, although the age of the hardware is beginning to show.

Then again, the same thing is true for every console, be it the NES, SNES, Genesis or N64. Sony just succeeds in making things harder for developers than Nintendo, Sega and up till now MSFT have managed

Anyway, I don't really agree that uniprocessor systems make it easier to write bad code. Sure, making a mistake in resource-locking code or such won't be pretty (instant crash if you're lucky), but there are still plenty of bugs and inefficiencies which moving to an SMP setup won't get rid of, especially with the PS3 and X360 (supposedly) having such an excess of processing power.

 

[retardedchicken]

I thought the most common Revolution rumor has dual PPC cores?

 

[Lord of Shadows]

I think its just a bunch of lazy developers who are used to single core processors using brute force (high clock speed) to plow through sloppy code

What the heck is he talking about?

 

[Michael.R]

I thought the most common Revolution rumor has dual PPC cores?

Ya that is the most common rumor so far. The chips are named broadway. I wouldnt be suprised to see a single core chip. I think 2 cores would be best though.

If Nintendo does go with a single core then they might add in a PPU. Isnt it rumored that the next gen cards (not the R520 or the 7800GTX, but the ones after like the G80) are supposed to have PPU's built in? Would anyone be suprised if ATI's gpu in the rev has a built in PPU or something along those lines.

And Anandtech did say that a high end chip today such as an athlon 64 is faster then what is in the xbox 360? (Didnt read the article so dont know exactly what they stated) Maybee this Broadway chip is similar to an athlon 64 or maybee not. I guess we will have to wait untill September 16 when the official announcement happens. (There is a rumor floating around that everything is announced on the 16 at the tokyo game show and that mario 128 will be shown in payable form at Nintendo's keynote)

 

[inotocracy]

Developers have said that both the PS3 and the XBOX360 are hard to program for. I think its just a bunch of lazy developers who are used to single core processors using brute force (high clock speed) to plow through sloppy code.

Developers will learn to program, effectively, for consoles, it just may take a while. I dont expects any games at launch, of either console, to use the full potential of the hardware.

I dont recall anyone claiming that the XBOX360 was a pain to develop for... actually John Carmack praised Microsoft for creating a pleasant/easy development environment in his keynote.