PS 3.0 Important now?

[creedAMD]

PVS 3.0 *might* speed up very complex DX9.0c games, but possibly not enough to topple ATi.

So far with the PVS 3.0 code in Farcry, the 6800ultra is still playing catchup to the higher clocked X800XT. In PVS 2.0 DX9.0 the X800XT is still a fair chunk faster than the 6800ultra. I would have though that if Nvidia wanted FarCry as their showcase piece, they would have waited to release a patch that would have definitively put it in first place.

"Many hands make light work" is a perfectly appropriate saying here. ATi has a card that does shorter instructions but does them faster (for example: a handshovel). Nvidia has a card that does longer instructions but does them slower (a footshovel). At the end of the day, on long PVS 3.0 instructions (deep holes) Nvidia and ATi are about tied for speed, but on short instructions Nvidia is slower because it still has to go through the long instruction pipe (why dig a deep hole when you only need a small one)...

So *puts on flamesuit* ATi's decision to stay with 2.0 may be better. (Nvidia CEO must be wondering where the performance has disappeared in the 60 million extra transistors)

Very well put, and no need to worry about a flamesuit, things have gone back to normal around here.

 

[jarman]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that even Doom III, would not exceed 1,000 shader instructions. Anyone have newer information?

 

[ToastyBoy]

Even if I trusted Tom's Benchmark scores, which I don't....they only used 4xAF and didn't run at 1600x1200. Useless info in my opinion.

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

it may not be the best but i'm glad someone went SM3.0. because developers realize they can make more complex instructions and before or just make the SM2.0 instructions shorter it has made life easier to them. maybe when the R500 is out etc. things may be better the fact remains developers and publishers both know that right now there is an idea that can be built on and this will push developers and manufacturers to come up with new ways of coding and faster GPU's.

my two pence

 

[Bad_Boy]

I could be wrong, but I was under the impression that even Doom III, would not exceed 1,000 shader instructions. Anyone have newer information?

I never heard of any number concerning the shader instruction number that Doom III would have, but i dont doubt that number. I don't think games now come even close to that number. I'm not 100% sure on that though.

 

[tranCendenZ]

I have seen some aritlces here that say Farcry ps 3.0 settings don't make a difference except in optimization, but what about doom III or other games in development that I haven't seen?

It looks the option that will make the most IQ difference is the 6800's FP16 blending for HDR Lighting. ATI cards do not support FP Blending for HDR lighting, and therefore their HDR is far lower quality and less efficient, and some devs like CryTek are opting not to implement it at all. In fact, with the FarCry 1.3 patch X800 owners will not have the option of using HDR lighting, while 6800 owners will - in other words, you will be missing out on eye candy with the x800.

You mentioned quality, you might want to consider that only the 6800 offers full trilinear filtering from the control panel and only the 6800 has 128-bit shader precision.

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

so what is the difference to trilinear and brilinear? is brilinear not true trilinear or something?

 

[Sniper_Merc]

Even if I trusted Tom's Benchmark scores, which I don't....they only used 4xAF and didn't run at 1600x1200. Useless info in my opinion.

How about an actual users numbers?

1600x1200 4xAA 8xAF 6800 GT OC'd 420/1.140
Athlon XP-M 2600+ @ 2500 MHz 166/166 x15 1.5 Gig PC 2700

Far Cry, Custom Recorded Time Demo on Pier.

==============================================================
TimeDemo Play Started , (Total Frames: 3726, Recorded Time: 67.36s)
!TimeDemo Run 0 Finished.
Play Time: 95.77s, Average FPS: 38.91
Min FPS: 31.22 at frame 2270, Max FPS: 47.29 at frame 1942
Average Tri/Sec: 6871741, Tri/Frame: 176624
Recorded/Played Tris ratio: 0.81
!TimeDemo Run 1 Finished.
Play Time: 95.68s, Average FPS: 38.94
Min FPS: 31.22 at frame 2270, Max FPS: 51.07 at frame 673
Average Tri/Sec: 6942054, Tri/Frame: 178269
Recorded/Played Tris ratio: 0.80
TimeDemo Play Ended, (2 Runs Performed)
==============================================================
==============================================================
TimeDemo Play Started , (Total Frames: 3726, Recorded Time: 67.36s)
!TimeDemo Run 0 Finished.
Play Time: 102.41s, Average FPS: 36.38
Min FPS: 28.54 at frame 2271, Max FPS: 46.32 at frame 668
Average Tri/Sec: 6428577, Tri/Frame: 176694
Recorded/Played Tris ratio: 0.81
!TimeDemo Run 1 Finished.
Play Time: 102.63s, Average FPS: 36.31
Min FPS: 28.54 at frame 2271, Max FPS: 48.13 at frame 1121
Average Tri/Sec: 6484665, Tri/Frame: 178615
Recorded/Played Tris ratio: 0.80
TimeDemo Play Ended, (2 Runs Performed)
==============================================================

My CPU is a bt slower and the lower FSB is hurting me a bit but overall I can say it's playable on a 6800 GT.

Oh and this is with SM 2.0 but DX 9.0c

Still waiting on the patch to see how much of a bump I get.

 

[nweibley]

You mentioned quality, you might want to consider that only the 6800 offers full trilinear filtering from the control panel and only the 6800 has 128-bit shader precision.

Concerning ATI's optimized AF and the 6800s 128 bit shader: so far, only minor differences in quality are noticed after comparing the difference between two screen shots and amplifying them... so I ask you... is all the extra precision worth it? I realize in-game play is different, but still, people have not exactly been complaining that either card has bad IQ... so you have to ask yourself it nVidia's decision to be so precise so soon was worth it.

Then again, ATI touting all of their "HD Gaming" crap probably should have opted to be highly precise too, because widescreen big HDTVs certainly will expose any nastyness that these cards have to offer.

 

[creedAMD]

You mentioned quality, you might want to consider that only the 6800 offers full trilinear filtering from the control panel and only the 6800 has 128-bit shader precision.

Can you show me a screen shot that shows that Nvidias full trilinear is better than Ati's adaptive?

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

Can you show me a screen shot that shows that Nvidias full trilinear is better than Ati's adaptive?

i think toms hardware have a good story on it, can't remember if the screenshots are better or worse though

 

[creedAMD]

i think toms hardware have a good story on it, can't remember if the screenshots are better or worse though

Yeah, here's a snipet from the conclusion, the only part I care about anyway.

ATi deserves credit for the fact that the image quality of the cards is not visibly compromised by this filtering

So yeah, I'll take the speed increase. Make the card as fast as all get out just don't visably decrease IQ.

 

[Stanley Pain]

In terms of IQ, pretty much EVERY review out there shows that the NV and ATI cards are pretty much the same quality.

Each card has some issues with certain games/drivers or what have you. But again I repeat, this big clusterfuck argument of which card is better is almost a moot point at this point in time. Both a great cards, and I think anyone would be happy with a 6800 or an x800

 

[Bad_Boy]

Just wondering, as we are talking about IQ atm, would these be optimizations, or some kind of bug with the driver or game?...

Nvidia: http://www.anandtech.com/video/show...reviews/video/nvidia/farcrysm3/volcanosm3.jpg
Ati: http://www.anandtech.com/video/show...reviews/video/nvidia/farcrysm3/volcanoati.jpg

Apparently on the Ati image, behind the phone, objects dissapeared.

Nvidia: http://www.firingsquad.com/media/article_image.asp?fs_article_id=1497&pic_id=02
Ati: http://www.firingsquad.com/media/article_image.asp?fs_article_id=1497&pic_id=01

Apparently on the Ati image, the trees have gone away?

And this..
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA4NjQ1NDUyMmdJZmdKUDFJdlVfM18xX2wuanBn
When at Very High shadows theres a texture bug of some sort, is this a crytek bug or driver bug?
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA4NjQ1NDUyMmdJZmdKUDFJdlVfM18yX2wuanBn
When settings turned down to Medium shadows the bug goes away and the fps jumps 29 fps.

Just wondering if these were game bugs or driver bugs.

 

[tranCendenZ]

Can you show me a screen shot that shows that Nvidias full trilinear is better than Ati's adaptive?

I have movies of FarCry with artifacting on ATI's brilinear that goes away with full trilinear, you have seen them before.

 

[Badger_sly]

That still leaves nVidia in the pants of CryTek. I seem to remember a little slip of paper in my FarCry box. Just wondering why nobody mentions this. My FarCry box had a fucking nVidia ad in it. You are seriously trying to tell me that FarCry is completly non-nVidia biased? Somebody got some money somewhere for putting that little "They way it was meant to be played" ad in there, and if you ask me, it is showing.

*cough..hl2 voucher..cough*

...........ATi's decision to stay with 2.0 may be better. ......

Temporarily, for a matter of weeks before the 6800 cards started coming out, yes. However, now, their 2.0 decision was poorly made, either through choice, or from a lack of info of all the games that would utilize 3.0, and the decision is going to haunt them in sales figures. Everyday I see more and more posts in various forums of individuals that didn't possess patients, had to have the x800pro.......... but now are sorry/mad/questioning what they did.

 

[creedAMD]

I have movies of FarCry with artifacting on ATI's brilinear that goes away with full trilinear, you have seen them before.

I thought those movies got ruled out as some other reasons. I think even the guy who made the movies said it was a very rare spot that he had to go find to make it happen. I don't think that is hardly proof when tons of hardware review sites have said that the IQ is even on the 6800u and the x800, unless you are telling me that without the optimization that the x800 can surpass the 6800u in IQ? And I know that you wouldn't say that. Back to PS3.0 not being important today, as it is unavailable.

 

[creedAMD]

*cough..hl2 voucher..cough*




Temporarily, for a matter of weeks before the 6800 cards started coming out, yes. However, now, their 2.0 decision was poorly made, either through choice, or from a lack of info of all the games that would utilize 3.0, and the decision is going to haunt them in sales figures. Everyday I see more and more posts in various forums of individuals that didn't possess patients, had to have the x800pro.......... but now are sorry/mad/questioning what they did.

Please show me where these people are sorry/mad/questioning what they did. I have to call bs on that. More and more has to at least mean 15 people easily right? Out of hundreds or thousands of people that have gotten their x800pro, you can surely point me to 15 people that are mad at their decision. Should be easy.

 

[tranCendenZ]

I thought those movies got ruled out as some other reasons. I think even the guy who made the movies said it was a very rare spot that he had to go find to make it happen. I don't think that is hardly proof when tons of hardware review sites have said that the IQ is even on the 6800u and the x800, unless you are telling me that without the optimization that the x800 can surpass the 6800u in IQ? And I know that you wouldn't say that. Back to PS3.0 not being important today, as it is unavailable.

lol, no they didn't get ruled out. Remember folks...
the 6800 has the option of both Full Trilinear and Brilinear.
X800 only gives you Brilinear.

6800 gives you the option of multisampling AA and super sampling AA
X800 only gives you multisampling AA
(btw in CoD 1280x1024 supersampling looks better than any level of 1600x1200 multisampling )

6800 will give you the option of playing FarCry at 1600x1200 with AA and AF or playing with HDR Lighting without AA
X800 will not be able to do HDR Lighting in FarCry

6800 is about quality, performance options, eye candy, and features, X800 is about performance and what ATI deems quality.

 

[Stanley Pain]

I thought those movies got ruled out as some other reasons. I think even the guy who made the movies said it was a very rare spot that he had to go find to make it happen. I don't think that is hardly proof when tons of hardware review sites have said that the IQ is even on the 6800u and the x800, unless you are telling me that without the optimization that the x800 can surpass the 6800u in IQ? And I know that you wouldn't say that. Back to PS3.0 not being important today, as it is unavailable.

The thing is that PS3.0 is available today, albeit in one game. Wasn't the same said about PS2.0? And now we have more and more games supporting that?

Regardless if PS3.0 can add image quality, it most surely can add performance without IQ loss, and in the end that's what we all want. Isn't it?

That being said, I'm still lovin' my 9700pro and won't be upgrading until the next gen.

 

[creedAMD]

Remember folks...
the 6800 has the option of both Full Trilinear and Brilinear.
X800 only gives you adaptive trilinear with the same IQ as 6800 full trilinear with more speed

6800 gives you the option of multisampling AA and super sampling AA
X800 only gives you multisampling AA
(btw in CoD 1280x1024 supersampling looks better than any level of 1600x1200 multisampling )

How about farcry?

6800 will give you the option of playing FarCry at 1600x1200 with AA and AF or playing with HDR Lighting without AA
X800 will not be able to do HDR Lighting in FarCry

6800 is about quality, performance options, and features, X800 is about performance and equal quality

 

[creedAMD]

The thing is that PS3.0 is available today, albeit in one game. Wasn't the same said about PS2.0? And now we have more and more games supporting that?

Regardless if PS3.0 can add image quality, it most surely can add performance without IQ loss, and in the end that's what we all want. Isn't it?

That being said, I'm still lovin' my 9700pro and won't be upgrading until the next gen.

It's available to reviewers, and even if it was on two machines side by side one with the ps3.0 and one without. Do you think people could tell the difference?

 

[arentol]

On the subject of Nvidia's Brilinear, Trilinear, and ATI's Adapative Trilinear....

First, despite what it says in some horribly biased articles by upset "reviewers" who were "lied too", ATI's Adaptive Trilinear is NOT the same thing as Nvidia's so called "brilinear". Brilinear is not adaptive, it is not a decision making process, it is simply on or off and when it's on it applies itself to ALL filtering. ATI's algorithm does not always apply, and they have programmed it to try to make smart decisions about when to apply itself.

Anyway, the 9600 used this system exclusively for over a year and not ONE person in the whole Friggin world noticed it. I would say that is a pretty damn good sign that it doesn't impact image quality at all, unlike Nvidia's Brilinear solution where the difference is blindingly obvious in many games.

Still today, when people know what to look for, it takes a LONG time to find one IQ issue and even then it often turns out that it is not related to the algorithm. (The only way to test really is to use a 9700 to look at the same location and see if it's different).

Anyway, the ATI trilinear flap was NEVER over IQ. It was always a "we've been duped" thing between the press and ATI, and even the most pissed off reviewers really didn't find any IQ issues to speak of that were caused by ATI's solution.

 

[arentol]

And this..
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA4NjQ1NDUyMmdJZmdKUDFJdlVfM18xX2wuanBn
When at Very High shadows theres a texture bug of some sort, is this a crytek bug or driver bug?
http://hardocp.com/image.html?image=MTA4NjQ1NDUyMmdJZmdKUDFJdlVfM18yX2wuanBn
When settings turned down to Medium shadows the bug goes away and the fps jumps 29 fps.

Just wondering if these were game bugs or driver bugs.

I am not sure about the first two issues, but the issue above is a Farcry issue. If you read the article those shots are from there is a followup update that explains what the problem is.

 

[Stanley Pain]

It's available to reviewers, and even if it was on two machines side by side one with the ps3.0 and one without. Do you think people could tell the difference?

IQ Wise no.

FPS wise, well I guess that depends on your visual aquity to frame loss. Getting higher MIN FPS is ALWAYS a good idea, specially without any IQ loss.

Time will tell on how well PS3.0 is going to be accepted in the near future game wise (I.E game patches).

 

[tranCendenZ]

How about farcry?

roffels, nice screenshot.

Far Cry, with all its foliage, will probably also look better at 1280x1024 with supersampling than any level of multisampling at 1600x1200. It might even look better at 1024x768 with SS. With the SM3.0 patch i wouldn't be surprised if FarCry is playable with supersampling (of course not at 1600x1200).

With SS you have to drop resolution to maintain equal perfromance, but the result generally looks better if the game has a lot of foliage.

I would test but my current driverset doesn't let me override farcry's aa settings (the newer ones do tho), but there are lots of aliased textures in farcry that multisampling can't clean up but SS probably could.

Anyway, again the 6800 gives you the option that the X800 does not.

 

[trungracingdev]

I never heard of any number concerning the shader instruction number that Doom III would have, but i dont doubt that number. I don't think games now come even close to that number. I'm not 100% sure on that though.

quoted from maximum pc

most developers are using shaders under 50 instructions...

 

[Shane]

Ps3.0 is not that important now nor do I see it being so for another year. Fact is both ati and nvidia are makeing dam good cards and either one you choose will be the right choice.

 

[Bad_Boy]

quoted from maximum pc

most developers are using shaders under 50 instructions...

So I was right on that.

 

[avatar_of_might]

just my thoughts
PS 3.0 is just another advancement that seems forward but not needed. Nvidia has just turned into a marketing tool. Its not a bad thing, just doing business. I have read articles at several sites and magazines and it seems magazines are making a bigger deal out of it. I think it was PCMag (have to check) that committed at least a paragraph about PS3.0 and though it is an improvement, I have not heard that next gen games like HL2 and D3 are using it and any games coming out this fall or winter. Just one theory may be that Crytek is being "pressured" (may be a bad word to use so please dont flame me) into using PS 3.0 heavily because right now, groups of people are seeing Far Cry as the game to measure cards. Just a thought. I may be wrong so please correct me

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

maybe im missing something with creedAMD's screenshot but the 6800U is at 8xaa 16xaf while the x800pro is at 6xaa 16xaf

(btw please correct me if im wrong)

 

[Dijonase]

Up until I recently got my X800 Pro I was playing Far Cry on a GeForce 4 Ti4400. At 1024x768 and with AA (2x I believe) I found it to be perfectly playable. Far Cry is generally considered to be one of the most taxing games around at this point and my Ti4400 was able to handle it, albeit at lowered settings.

Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but isn't the Ti4400 a DX8 card? I played just about every big game that came out since I got the 4400 two years or so ago, and at Far Cry I finally saw that it was time to upgrade. If I was able to handle all those DX9 games with a DX8 card then I'm sure my piddly little X800 Pro will be able to last the next year at the least even with all the new features that it may not support.

 

[creedAMD]

maybe im missing something with creedAMD's screenshot but the 6800U is at 8xaa 16xaf while the x800pro is at 6xaa 16xaf

(btw please correct me if im wrong)

The point was to max out the highest settings on both cards.

 

[tornadotsunamilife]

The point was to max out the highest settings on both cards.

i see, i was just wondering in case it was a mistake

 

[Badger_sly]

Please show me where these people are sorry/mad/questioning what they did. I have to call bs on that.

Hmm, did you forget that you posted in some of those threads I described? They are out there, you've seen them.

More and more has to at least mean 15 people easily right? .................you can surely point me to 15 people that are mad at their decision. .........

To me, more and more means I saw a few at first, then the next day saw a few more, and the next day saw even more......... sort of like a slowly growing trend. You've been in some of the threads, and I'm sure you can find however many additional ones you like. And, perhaps I should have written "sorry and/or mad and/or questioning", since my "/"s seemed to easily confuse you.

 

[creedAMD]

Hmm, did you forget that you posted in some of those threads I described? They are out there, you've seen them.



To me, more and more means I saw a few at first, then the next day saw a few more, and the next day saw even more......... sort of like a slowly growing trend. You've been in some of the threads, and I'm sure you can find however many additional ones you like. And, perhaps I should have written "sorry and/or mad and/or questioning", since my "/"s seemed to easily confuse you.

you forgot the links, this is the primary place I post, so it should be easy.

edit: and about the "/" I just didn't want to retype it again, I was sure that you were smart guy.

 

[Badger_sly]

.........., this is the primary place I post, so it should be easy.

.....................

Yes, should be easy for you since you posted already in some of those threads. You want the links, do a search on yourself, for starters.

 

[creedAMD]

Yes, should be easy for you since you posted already in some of those threads. You want the links, do a search on yourself, for starters.

I searched to no avail, hook me up, I'm interested in seeing my memory lapse. Should be easy. Sorry to bother you, I'm intrigued now since you said I posted in them and don't remember, lol!