PROMOS/Micron D9?

[Tracker]

Searching for memory for my next build, ive come accross a few posts claiming that new highly acclaimed Corsair Dominator CL4 modules have "PROMOS" chips and not "Micron D9" chips as they used to have, or as the CL3 modules do.

So, is Micron D9 so much better that i should not buy the PC6400C4D modules just because they are PROMOS?

And wich modules ARE Micron D9?

Thank You!

 

[Retsam]

Well, random people posting doesnt mean much but....

If that is true...........well, yes micron d9's are better. Dominators are expensive arnt they? They wouldnt be worth it if they wernt micron d9's imo. Promos arnt bad though. They just wouldnt reach close to micron d9 levels.

Heres a list you can check. Although its a few months outdated so.... http://ramlist.ath.cx/ddr2/

 

[PClark99]

http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5162136

probably the best price for guaranteed D9 chips.

 

[Tracker]

Well, random people posting doesnt mean much but....

If that is true...........well, yes micron d9's are better. Dominators are expensive arnt they? They wouldnt be worth it if they wernt micron d9's imo. Promos arnt bad though. They just wouldnt reach close to micron d9 levels.

Heres a list you can check. Although its a few months outdated so.... http://ramlist.ath.cx/ddr2/

Wow, that site basicly confirms what Corsair are up to! Cant believe i trusted them..

The new OCZ FlexXLC 6400 CL3/4 modules arent listed here. How do i find out if they are Micron of not?

 

[Tracker]

http://shop3.outpost.com/product/5162136

probably the best price for guaranteed D9 chips.

Well no, because they are CL5. Im looking for CL3/4 800 to overclock to CL4 1066.

 

[Ikeenen]

i find my Flex 6400C4 Sticks are just able to do 1000mhz on my P5B-D. they need 2.4v and 4,5,5,18 to be really stable. so you might want to try something else... I belive there promos chips? right?.

 

[Tracker]

i find my Flex 6400C4 Sticks are just able to do 1000mhz on my P5B-D. they need 2.4v and 4,5,5,18 to be really stable. so you might want to try something else... I belive there promos chips? right?.

You tell me.

And im thinking about the 6400C3 chips, so they could probably get to 1200Mhz.

 

[Redbeard]

Wow, that site basicly confirms what Corsair are up to! Cant believe i trusted them..

What are we "up to"? We make all sorts of memory with different ICs and never said that all the Dominators were Microns.

 

[Tracker]

What are we "up to"? We make all sorts of memory with different ICs and never said that all the Dominators were Microns.

You create the Dominator 6400C4 with Micron D9 chips and sell it for an OK price.
Then u secretly switch the chips to the much crappier PROMOS.

If u had wanted to create a Dominator with PROMOS, then u should have created a whole new module and not decieve us by switching it under our noses and keeping it at the exact same price point so that u make a larger profit off of your unsuspecting customers.

Its like if Intel were to suddenly sell us Core 2 Duo's with a Pentium 4 core inside. Or if Dell were to switch out their S-PVA panel off of their 2407WFP for a TN panel without even thinking to tell anyone.

Im very sorry for everyone who bought a Dominator 6400C4 after the switch. It is truly un-fair.
And it hurts me to know that Corsair would do something like this. I respected them as a top memory manufacturer for so long..

 

[Retsam]

Well no, because they are CL5. Im looking for CL3/4 800 to overclock to CL4 1066.

That is some strange logic. That link from PClark99 is to guaranteed PC2-8500 micron d9 chips. They are cas5, because they are far faster than PC2-6400 memory. It is the same thing. If you lowered their speed to that of other pc2-6400 memory, you could easily do cas 4 timings.

Also that link to outpost is the cheapest youll find of the very best micron d9 chips. The only cheaper deal is firestix, which as we all know, are very very backordered. So if youre expecting at this point in time to find cheaper sticks than that, you will be disappointed.


Tracker: As to comment on Redbeards quote. Why are you angry at corsair? lmao... Nowhere does it state they are supposed to be micron d9 chips. We just happen to track the ones that are. I dont see why it is "unfair". Corsair can do whatever they want to.

 

[Redbeard]

You create the Dominator 6400C4 with Micron D9 chips and sell it for an OK price.
Then u secretly switch the chips to the much crappier PROMOS.

Not what happened. Dominator 6400C4D was never anything but Promos. There's a few Micron kits out there but from the beginning, The Dominator 6400C4s were always designed to be a lower-cost Dominator with decent performance at a decent price.

If u had wanted to create a Dominator with PROMOS, then u should have created a whole new module and not decieve us by switching it under our noses and keeping it at the exact same price point so that u make a larger profit off of your unsuspecting customers.

It is a whole new module. All 6400C4Ds are PROMOS-based, except for a very few that were downbinned Microns that did not pass our 8500C5 screen.

All 6400C3s, 8500C5s, 8888C4s, 9136C5s, and 10000C5s are micron based and only Micron based.

Its like if Intel were to suddenly sell us Core 2 Duo's with a Pentium 4 core inside. Or if Dell were to switch out their S-PVA panel off of their 2407WFP for a TN panel without even thinking to tell anyone.

It's not like the first one much. We're not selling you DDR1 and claiming it's DDR2 or anything.

And if Dell switched from S-PVA to TN, or from S-IPS to S-PVA, that would only matter if they advertised it as a specification that it could no longer meet. If they say 600:1 Contrast ratio and then replace the panel with something that's 300:1, yeah, that's a legitimate complaint.

The 6400C4D is advertised at 4-4-4-12-2T @ 2.1V @ 800 MHz. It does that pretty much flawlessly and if it doesn't we'll replace it with a set that does. It also overclocks fairly well, with newer PROMOS-based parts hitting 900-1000 MHz @ 2.2V @ 5-5-5-12-2T latencies. That's pretty good headroom for a part that price.

Our parts are guaranteed for life to perform at our rated specs.

Im very sorry for everyone who bought a Dominator 6400C4 after the switch. It is truly un-fair.
And it hurts me to know that Corsair would do something like this. I respected them as a top memory manufacturer for so long..

I'm sorry you don't respect us, but there was never a "switch". It was always PROMOS. The original 6400C4 (non-dominator) was Micron based in early 2006 because that was the only IC that would do 4-4-4-12-2T @ 800 MHz @ 2.1V. When the Promos came around (in April/May of 2006) we switched and announced it in our IC Inquiry Thread on our forums. When we released the Dominator 6400C4Ds later in 2006, we waited specifically until we had enough PROMOS ICs on hand to launch the part exclusively with PROMOS.

The revision numbers of 1.x are all Micron parts, but that's not indicating that they were made first, only that the first IC to qualify for that speed grade was a Micron IC. The revision numbers of 2.x are all Promos parts. Over 99% of all 6400C4Ds ever sold are 2.x revisions.

Nonetheless, we felt bad about the confusion so for a month at the end of last year I pushed a program through where you could upgrade from your PROMOS-based 6400C4Ds to Micron-based 8500C5Ds for the difference in price. For most people it was about $35 difference per kit. I personally handled all of this, because I felt like we just might not have been clear enough, even though it'd been on our forums for months.

That's not part of my normal job, I'm not customer service (as you can clearly tell by my cheery and personable demeanor! ) I'm an Apps guy. My main job is to identify enthusiast demand, formulate products that meet that demand, and crack the whip so Engineering and Marketing don't strangle each other and forget entirely about you guys, the Enthusiasts who buy the products.

We've got some things in the works based on the feedback and all the confusion from this incident, stuff that will make everything a bit clearer, but we never sent out any 6400C4Ds for review, we never said they were Micron-based.

I got pretty tired of hearing Corsair being disparaged by a lot of people on this topic and as you can tell I'm very passionate about it. I believe in this company because the people here DO try to do the right thing, and getting accused of a bait & switch really irks me, since I know first hand there was no intention to do so and we thought we'd been crystal clear on the issue.

No offense meant to anybody, of course. Sorry for the rant.

 

[mavalpha]

OP:
http://www.hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1126837
Redbeard has already covered all of the relevant points; I was very impressed with how Corsair handled this miscommunication, even though they never guaranteed Micron chips to begin with. Next time I get around to overhauling my rig, I will definitely remember their courtesy.

As for Intel shipping Pentium cores under Core2 monikers, they have different specs. If Intel promises 2.4GHz out of their E6600, that's what it's guaranteed to run. Just because most batches can hit 3GHz, that's still no guarantee that YOURS will. If you want chips that are guaranteed Micron, buy the 6400c3 or 8500-and-up models.

 

[Retsam]

Redbeard. Dont let it get to you. There are a lot of inexperienced users who don't know how things work. They get something in their head and think it evolves all around them. Corsair is a great company who makes great modules.

Im not sure why Tracker is getting annoyed, it doesnt look like he has ever even owned any micron d9 chips. Id guess he hasnt done any ocing with any type of chips yet to really know what hes talking about.

 

[Tracker]

Not what happened. Dominator 6400C4D was never anything but Promos. There's a few Micron kits out there but from the beginning, The Dominator 6400C4s were always designed to be a lower-cost Dominator with decent performance at a decent price.

It is a whole new module. All 6400C4Ds are PROMOS-based, except for a very few that were downbinned Microns that did not pass our 8500C5 screen.
All 6400C3s, 8500C5s, 8888C4s, 9136C5s, and 10000C5s are micron based and only Micron based.

Ok wait, are u saying that 6400C4 and 6400C4D were both created using the same Micron D9 for around a month and then u switched both to PROMOS when it was possible?
Because then u would still have ppl who have Micron and ppl who have PROMOS and thats not fair.
And why is everything else still Micron? All the other high-end products that is.

The revision numbers of 1.x are all Micron parts, but that's not indicating that they were made first, only that the first IC to qualify for that speed grade was a Micron IC. The revision numbers of 2.x are all Promos parts. Over 99% of all 6400C4Ds ever sold are 2.x revisions.

So ur saying that Versions 1.1, 1.2 and also 1.3 make up 1% of the modules, and 2.1 and 2.2 make up 99%? I find that hard to believe.

The 6400C4D is advertised at 4-4-4-12-2T @ 2.1V @ 800 MHz. It does that pretty much flawlessly and if it doesn't we'll replace it with a set that does. It also overclocks fairly well, with newer PROMOS-based parts hitting 900-1000 MHz @ 2.2V @ 5-5-5-12-2T latencies. That's pretty good headroom for a part that price.

I know for a fact that many ppl and review sites have been able to get to 1066Mhz easily with 6400C4D modules. Now if both 6400C4 and 6400C4D are the same modules, then it makes sense that it would be possible to get to 1066Mhz easily on the Dominator and 900Mhz easily on the non-Dominator for the lack of the cooling system.
But the fact that u claim that the Dominator can only push 900Mhz makes no sense. I know that it can do more and it would make a lot more sense if the ones that could do 1066Mhz were Micron D9 and the ones that couldnt are PROMOS.

I'm sorry you don't respect us, but there was never a "switch". It was always PROMOS. The original 6400C4 (non-dominator) was Micron based in early 2006 because that was the only IC that would do 4-4-4-12-2T @ 800 MHz @ 2.1V. When the Promos came around (in April/May of 2006) we switched and announced it in our IC Inquiry Thread on our forums. When we released the Dominator 6400C4Ds later in 2006, we waited specifically until we had enough PROMOS ICs on hand to launch the part exclusively with PROMOS.

Ok, so I have to ask. Why switch to PROMOS anyway? Micron is obviously better. Only reason i can see is to drive down manufacture cost while still selling it at the same price. Thats not something i respect.

And if Dell switched from S-PVA to TN, or from S-IPS to S-PVA, that would only matter if they advertised it as a specification that it could no longer meet. If they say 600:1 Contrast ratio and then replace the panel with something that's 300:1, yeah, that's a legitimate complaint.

Ok now see, this is where i get angry at u for doing this..
Sure, its POSSIBLE to trade up the S-PVA.IPS panel and give me a TN panel and i wouldnt be able to see the difference. Sure u can sell me PROMOS instead of Micron D9 and ill probably not be able to tell the difference.
But if u were to do that without telling me and without lowering the cost significantly, then that is deception and u only do that to make money off of the unknowing customers.

Our parts are guaranteed for life to perform at our rated specs.

Well, im not really interested in DDR2-800 CL4 just because i enjoy leaving my components at stock. The whole point is to overclock and the CL4 modules can get to 1066Mhz wich is my goal.
Now, if there were review sites that reviewed the 6400C4D's in the 2 months they were out before u made the switch, and well, theres a pretty damn good chance of that happening to say the least.. then thats even worse because u have sites that can overclock their modules to 1200Mhz and advertize that they are good overclockers, and then ppl go out and buy em later on after u made the switch and can barely get to 1000Mhz.

Nonetheless, we felt bad about the confusion so for a month at the end of last year I pushed a program through where you could upgrade from your PROMOS-based 6400C4Ds to Micron-based 8500C5Ds for the difference in price. For most people it was about $35 difference per kit. I personally handled all of this, because I felt like we just might not have been clear enough, even though it'd been on our forums for months.

Just because it was on the forums dosent mean that anyone saw it. I mean the average costomer does not go to the website of the company that makes the product that he is going to buy, and an even fewer ppl actually log into the site's forums.
The upgrade program was a very nice idea, but most ppl i know including myself want to get to 8500 on CL4, and dont want to pay for the already overclocked yet higher latency CL5 modules. Not to mention I dont live in the US so if it had happened to me i could not have been apart of the program.

That's not part of my normal job, I'm not customer service (as you can clearly tell by my cheery and personable demeanor! ) I'm an Apps guy. My main job is to identify enthusiast demand, formulate products that meet that demand, and crack the whip so Engineering and Marketing don't strangle each other and forget entirely about you guys, the Enthusiasts who buy the products.

We've got some things in the works based on the feedback and all the confusion from this incident, stuff that will make everything a bit clearer, but we never sent out any 6400C4Ds for review, we never said they were Micron-based.

Im very happy to see that Corsair employ a person like urself who goes out and seeks the customer's wishes. Not only does it help the company, but it shows respect and admiration to the customer base.

I got pretty tired of hearing Corsair being disparaged by a lot of people on this topic and as you can tell I'm very passionate about it. I believe in this company because the people here DO try to do the right thing, and getting accused of a bait & switch really irks me, since I know first hand there was no intention to do so and we thought we'd been crystal clear on the issue.

No offense meant to anybody, of course. Sorry for the rant.

Please. I enjoyed reading that very much and thank you for writing it. Seeing actual emotion from a large company rep. is somethng i admire and hardly ever witness.

I would like to believe that Corsair is the company I thought they were. But switching to PROMOS and not offering Micron-based 6400C4D modules is something that is hard to explain when there are companies that have 6400C3 MICRON D9(!) modules for around the same price as ur 6400C4D.

 

[Tracker]

As for Intel shipping Pentium cores under Core2 monikers, they have different specs. If Intel promises 2.4GHz out of their E6600, that's what it's guaranteed to run. Just because most batches can hit 3GHz, that's still no guarantee that YOURS will. If you want chips that are guaranteed Micron, buy the 6400c3 or 8500-and-up models.

Actually, no. Almost all E6600's will overclock to around the same place. Not that it matters, because ur not going to ever reach that place.

What Corsair did was different. Its the equivilant of selling u a 90nm E6600.

 

[Tracker]

Redbeard. Dont let it get to you. There are a lot of inexperienced users who don't know how things work. They get something in their head and think it evolves all around them. Corsair is a great company who makes great modules.

Im not sure why Tracker is getting annoyed, it doesnt look like he has ever even owned any micron d9 chips. Id guess he hasnt done any ocing with any type of chips yet to really know what hes talking about.

Im sorry u feel that way.
I greatly value ur imput and the link u gave me of the chips on each module.

 

[Tracker]

That is some strange logic. That link from PClark99 is to guaranteed PC2-8500 micron d9 chips. They are cas5, because they are far faster than PC2-6400 memory. It is the same thing. If you lowered their speed to that of other pc2-6400 memory, you could easily do cas 4 timings.

You dont understand.
I want 8500C4.

 

[Retsam]

Why?

 

[Tracker]

Because 8500C4 > 8500C5.

 

[Retsam]

Because 8500C4 > 8500C5.

Im interested why you think that. Explain.


I dont even see 8500C4 on their product page. Got a link? Do you mean 6400C4?

 

[Tracker]

Im interested why you think that. Explain.


I dont even see 8500C4 on their product page. Got a link? Do you mean 6400C4?

You're kidding right?

The lower the latency the better the performance. You should already know this.. its RAM 101.

 

[arentol]

What Corsair did was different. Its the equivilant of selling u a 90nm E6600.

let me finish that sentence for you.

... that runs at the same temp, uses the same amount of power, and overclocks to the same or higher level.


I currently have Promos IC's on my RAM. I can run 4-4-3-8-1t at upto 850mhz (2.1 volts), and 4-4-3-5-2t at 962mhz (2.2volts). I haven't even tried looser timings and higher mhz or volts yet, but it doesn't really matter because the vast majority of D9GMH's (cheapest good D9's) won't do the settings I am already running with ease.

Regardless, you can complain all you want, but if you got what you were promised, which you did since Corsair NEVER promised D9's, then you just come off as a whiny bitch. Righteous indignation only works when you are actually righteous, and you aren't.

 

[Donkers]

It pays to do a lot of research. And don't forget the adage..."let the buyer beware". Thanks for the info everyone.

 

[Redbeard]

Ok wait, are u saying that 6400C4 and 6400C4D were both created using the same Micron D9 for around a month and then u switched both to PROMOS when it was possible?

No, the 6400C4 (non-dominator) was made for about 3-4 months (Jan 06 - April 06) using Micron parts because that's the only IC that would hit the rated speeds. It was then switched to PROMOS, and announced in our forums on the IC inquiry thread. The 6400C4D (Dominator) version was never Micron-based in quantity. By the time we started making Dominators (Q3 of 06) PROMOS hit 6400C4 easily, and that's what we made it with.

Because then u would still have ppl who have Micron and ppl who have PROMOS and thats not fair.
And why is everything else still Micron? All the other high-end products that is.

The 6400C4D is the cheapest Dominator and was designed as kind of an "entry-level" into the Dominator product line. It is priced accordingly. PROMOS chips are a bit cheaper than Micron chips and as such, the 6400C4D is priced lower than all other Dominators, which are currently Micron-based. I don't really view 6400C4 as "high-end", considering there are 5 parts we sell that are all rated at higher speeds. (6400C3, 8500C5, 8888C4, 9136C5, 10000C5)

So ur saying that Versions 1.1, 1.2 and also 1.3 make up 1% of the modules, and 2.1 and 2.2 make up 99%? I find that hard to believe.

That's exactly what I'm saying, and that's the truth. Whether you believe it or not, I can't change. But when I look in our database at revision numbers, the # of 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 modules add up to be about 1% of the total number of all 6400C4D modules shipped.

I know for a fact that many ppl and review sites have been able to get to 1066Mhz easily with 6400C4D modules.

Please send me examples of this. We never, ever sent the 6400C4D to review sites because it's not our high-end part. Why would we send a mid-range part to a review site when we could send one of our 5 faster parts?

Now if both 6400C4 and 6400C4D are the same modules, then it makes sense that it would be possible to get to 1066Mhz easily on the Dominator and 900Mhz easily on the non-Dominator for the lack of the cooling system.

But the fact that u claim that the Dominator can only push 900Mhz makes no sense. I know that it can do more and it would make a lot more sense if the ones that could do 1066Mhz were Micron D9 and the ones that couldnt are PROMOS.

Let me try to explain this.
Early 2006, we had only a few parts available. 8500C5, 6400C4, and maybe 6400C3. We didn't have 9136, we didn't have 10000. We were using Micron at this time for the 6400C4 and we sent Micron-based 6400C4 (non-dominators) out for review to I think 2 or 3 web sites.

If you go out today, and buy 100 6400C4 and 100 6400C4D module, 99% of both of them are PROMOS. We've never lied about this or hid this fact. Not once. As soon as we qualified the new IC and shipped that part, our IC inquiry thread on our forums showed that info. I'm not aware of any other manufacturer that makes that info public to that level. I think we do pretty well informing people.

Ok, so I have to ask. Why switch to PROMOS anyway? Micron is obviously better. Only reason i can see is to drive down manufacture cost while still selling it at the same price. Thats not something i respect.

It was to make the part more affordable. The 6400C4D is significantly cheaper than our Micron-based parts. The switch to PROMOS was done for 2 reasons: 1) Cost, 2) Availability. With everyone and their mother buying Micron ICs for their memory, Micron was (and is) very hard to get. PROMOS was more available, and performed well (though not as well as the Micron) but we just couldn't keep up with demand if we'd made the 6400C4Ds out of Micron. We'd have to raise the price to about the same as the 8500C5, and at that point, why would you buy the 6400C4 for the same price as something guaranteed to hit a higher FSB?

Ok now see, this is where i get angry at u for doing this..
Sure, its POSSIBLE to trade up the S-PVA.IPS panel and give me a TN panel and i wouldnt be able to see the difference. Sure u can sell me PROMOS instead of Micron D9 and ill probably not be able to tell the difference.
But if u were to do that without telling me and without lowering the cost significantly, then that is deception and u only do that to make money off of the unknowing customers.

The thing is, THE 6400C4D IS CHEAPER THAN OTHER DOMINATOR PARTS because it is based on PROMOS.

I understand the confusion, but when you go and buy a car, and it says it goes 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, do you care if the 2004 model has a slightly different alloy wheel material than the 2005 model? If the car performs as advertised, would you write a letter to Porsche saying "I'm disappointed in the 74% Aluminum Alloy wheel, I believed I was going to get the 83% Aluminum Alloy wheel!" when they never advertise that at all? The car performs the same.

The important thing that people seem to be missing is:
THE 6400C4D HAS ALWAYS BEEN PROMOS with only some small, small exceptions and downbins.

Well, im not really interested in DDR2-800 CL4 just because i enjoy leaving my components at stock. The whole point is to overclock and the CL4 modules can get to 1066Mhz wich is my goal.

Then you should buy a different part. I'll be honest. The 6400C4D is not going to hit 8500C4. It just won't. Even if you get a Micron-based kit, it probably still won't.

Why? Because we screen the hell out of our Micron ICs to keep the fast ones in our upper-range of products. Because we can only make 5 of our top-end parts using Microns. So when we screen them, we sort them and make the fast modules with them. Anything that fails 8500C5 gets made into 6400C4, as that's the next step down.

So if you get lucky and get a set of 6400C4s that ARE Micron-based, chances are they'll perform very similar to the PROMOS-based set.

Micron-based parts are not a guarantee of 8500C4. I've had some really, really crappy Micron-based modules in my hands that I would (and did) trade for PROMOS-based parts in a second.

It's not the norm, but it does happen.

Now, if there were review sites that reviewed the 6400C4D's in the 2 months they were out before u made the switch, and well, theres a pretty damn good chance of that happening to say the least.. then thats even worse because u have sites that can overclock their modules to 1200Mhz and advertize that they are good overclockers, and then ppl go out and buy em later on after u made the switch and can barely get to 1000Mhz.

We never sent them out to review sites, but we can't control if some review site buys modules off the shelf and puts them in a roundup. Still, if you ever find a review of the 6400C4D and it happens to be Micron-based, please post it here. I haven't ever seen one and I'd like to talk to any reviewer who did the review to see how that happened.

Just because it was on the forums dosent mean that anyone saw it. I mean the average costomer does not go to the website of the company that makes the product that he is going to buy, and an even fewer ppl actually log into the site's forums.

Where else are we going to announce it? Go to every enthusiast forum on the planet and post a "JUST SO YOU GUYS KNOW" thread? It's not our responsibility to do that. It's our responsibility to produce parts that perform to the spec and give headroom. It's above and beyond the call of duty to post what ICs are in each module, but we do that anyway.

Now you're asking that we not only put it on our own forums, but also put out a Press Release or something? Components change on modules all the time. The 1.1 to 1.2 change might be something as small as a different resistor or a new heatsink adhesive. Should we announce all those changes as well?

The upgrade program was a very nice idea, but most ppl i know including myself want to get to 8500 on CL4, and dont want to pay for the already overclocked yet higher latency CL5 modules. Not to mention I dont live in the US so if it had happened to me i could not have been apart of the program.

I handled the exchange for people outside of the US. You want to overclock, that's fine, but overclocking is not a guarantee. We sell parts guaranteed to overclock for a reason: because we can guarantee they'll hit that speed.

I know the fun of overclocking is taking a lower-spec part and hitting a higher spec, but to me it seems like what you're asking is kind of unreasonable.

If you buy an E6300 and want to hit 3.6 GHz with it, do you complain to Intel that yours only hits 3.3 GHz instead? I mean, the 6400C4D can do a 10-20% overclock, that's free performance. Doesn't cost anything. You just tweak the settings and voltage and there you go. Now your complaint is that it doesn't go from 800 CAS4 to 1066 CAS4 for the same price?

That's pretty unreasonable.

Im very happy to see that Corsair employ a person like urself who goes out and seeks the customer's wishes. Not only does it help the company, but it shows respect and admiration to the customer base.


Please. I enjoyed reading that very much and thank you for writing it. Seeing actual emotion from a large company rep. is somethng i admire and hardly ever witness.

Thanks. I'm a pretty big enthusiast myself and always have been, ever since the first PC I bought was a piece of crap and the tech support for it consisted of one guy who barely spoke english and liked to hang up on people for no reason at all. I had to learn the hard way, but it's a labor of love and I really like my job, I get to make new products and they pay me to take your opinions into a meeting with the CEO and tell him "look, the customers seem to like X and Y, not A and B." and most of the time they listen.

I would like to believe that Corsair is the company I thought they were. But switching to PROMOS and not offering Micron-based 6400C4D modules is something that is hard to explain when there are companies that have 6400C3 MICRON D9(!) modules for around the same price as ur 6400C4D.

I can't control our competitor's prices, if you go buy 800 CAS3 modules for less than we sell them, well, that's great. We never claimed to be the world's cheapest memory. We claim to be the world's most awarded and the world's fastest. These claims stand strong.

Part of the reason our performance parts are so expensive is because of the labor costs involved with sorting various Micron ICs for different parts, and the extensive testing procedures we have. Anybody can go buy unsorted Micron parts, throw them on a PCB, slap a heatsink on them, run them through a quick sort, and say "These are 6400C3s if you use 2.4 volts" but that's cheap and ridiculous. They might be right 85% of the time, and just expect the other 15% to RMA them or not to care. That's cool for them.

For us, our RMA rates are in the low, low single digits. Even on mass market parts. Our performance is guaranteed and proven in review after review. We're the only company with a module rated at 1250 MHz that you can actually purchase (when it's in stock! It sells out like crazy even at $600 a set) and we sell the world's best parts. That's what I believe, because it's the truth.

I will be honest. If you want 1066 @ CAS4, you don't want the 6400C4D. Best of luck in your search for a part that can do that. I wish you well.

 

[Riddlinkidstoner]

Crucial is better! *runs*

Just kidding don't hurt me! Go Corsair!

 

[Tracker]

that runs at the same temp, uses the same amount of power, and overclocks to the same or higher level.

90nm that runs at the same temps as 65nm and allows u to overclock to the same level? Well, if u can do that then id bet Intel will give u a job.
If that was possible then there wouldnt be a need for 65nm.
Not that it matters because giving ppl 90nm when u promise 65nm or give others 65nm is deception.

I currently have Promos IC's on my RAM. I can run 4-4-3-8-1t at upto 850mhz (2.1 volts), and 4-4-3-5-2t at 962mhz (2.2volts). I haven't even tried looser timings and higher mhz or volts yet, but it doesn't really matter because the vast majority of D9GMH's (cheapest good D9's) won't do the settings I am already running with ease.

Alright, so again.. whats the use of Micron chips? Lets all just use PROMOS.

 

[luihed]

Redbeard..... I think everybody will feel better if you guys can just bring back teh 5400UL...... me want those lol.....

 

[Tracker]

No, the 6400C4 (non-dominator) was made for about 3-4 months (Jan 06 - April 06) using Micron parts because that's the only IC that would hit the rated speeds. It was then switched to PROMOS, and announced in our forums on the IC inquiry thread. The 6400C4D (Dominator) version was never Micron-based in quantity. By the time we started making Dominators (Q3 of 06) PROMOS hit 6400C4 easily, and that's what we made it with.

Alright, well did u lower the price when u went from 6400C4 Micron to 6400C4 PROMOS?
And ur saying that if i want 6400C4 Micron i have to buy a non-Dominator module?
Would u say that a 6400C4 Mcron would overclock to the level as a 6400C4D PROMOS? Cause then it could make sense.. the cooling is so good, that u can get to Micron level overclocks on PROMOS. In wich case, maybe i would be able to reach 8500C4 with the Dominator fan.

The 6400C4D is the cheapest Dominator and was designed as kind of an "entry-level" into the Dominator product line. It is priced accordingly. PROMOS chips are a bit cheaper than Micron chips and as such, the 6400C4D is priced lower than all other Dominators, which are currently Micron-based. I don't really view 6400C4 as "high-end", considering there are 5 parts we sell that are all rated at higher speeds. (6400C3, 8500C5, 8888C4, 9136C5, 10000C5)

Well 6400C4 isnt that much lower than 6400C3 (even though u price it that way ) so why not make a 6400C4 Micron? You could have made both PROMOS and Micron, or made an 6400C5 with PROMOS and leave the 6400C4 with Micron.

That's exactly what I'm saying, and that's the truth. Whether you believe it or not, I can't change. But when I look in our database at revision numbers, the # of 1.1, 1.2, and 1.3 modules add up to be about 1% of the total number of all 6400C4D modules shipped.

If you go out today, and buy 100 6400C4 and 100 6400C4D module, 99% of both of them are PROMOS.

So u first made the 6400C4 Micron (non Dominator) and that had revisions of 1.1, 1.2 and 1.3 over a few months time. Then, when revision 2.1 came and switched the chips from Micron to PROMOS, thats when u also started to make the Dominator modules.
So that would account for the 1% being Micron on the Dominator, since it did not have to go though 1.1,1.2 and 1.3 and started it's life as 2.1.
But on the non-Dominator, it would have to be a lot higher.. i mean it was out for months before the Dominator and it was what went through 1.1,1.2 and 1.3.

Please send me examples of this. We never, ever sent the 6400C4D to review sites because it's not our high-end part. Why would we send a mid-range part to a review site when we could send one of our 5 faster parts?

What do u mean by that? Every product has to be reviewed. Ive never heard of a product that wasnt reviewed because it wasnt high-end enough. Its like saying that the 8300 GS isnt going to be reviews and the 8800 GTS will.
Here is a review of the 6400C4.
http://www.pcstats.com/articleview.cfm?articleid=1960&page=5

It was to make the part more affordable. The 6400C4D is significantly cheaper than our Micron-based parts. The switch to PROMOS was done for 2 reasons: 1) Cost, 2) Availability. With everyone and their mother buying Micron ICs for their memory, Micron was (and is) very hard to get. PROMOS was more available, and performed well (though not as well as the Micron) but we just couldn't keep up with demand if we'd made the 6400C4Ds out of Micron. We'd have to raise the price to about the same as the 8500C5, and at that point, why would you buy the 6400C4 for the same price as something guaranteed to hit a higher FSB?

Cost to who, you or the customer? What if some ppl (like me) still want 6400C4 Micron?

The thing is, THE 6400C4D IS CHEAPER THAN OTHER DOMINATOR PARTS because it is based on PROMOS.

Its cheaper than the 6400C3DF and rest, sure. But thats because they are heavily overpriced. You can find 6400C3 from Geil, G.Skill and OCZ for no more than the cost ofthe 6400C4D, and those all use Micron(!).

I understand the confusion, but when you go and buy a car, and it says it goes 0-60 in 4.9 seconds, do you care if the 2004 model has a slightly different alloy wheel material than the 2005 model? If the car performs as advertised, would you write a letter to Porsche saying "I'm disappointed in the 74% Aluminum Alloy wheel, I believed I was going to get the 83% Aluminum Alloy wheel!" when they never advertise that at all? The car performs the same.

Ok, now here i want to get to my main point..
Yes, if u buy a car that says that it can do 0-60 in 4.9 second and it actually does, then thats great. But there is a big difference.
When i buy a CPU or RAM or a Graphics Card i know that it will be clocked at the clock that it is advertised as being clocked at. But thats not what any enthusiest cares about.
The whole point is to overclock. If Intel gives me an E6600 built on a 90nm process then sure it will be able to hit 2.4Ghz easily.. but it will not be able to overclock very well at all.
I know that if i buy a 6400C4D, then i will be able to hit 1066Mhz, based on reviews. I dont care almost at all that it can do 800Mhz because i would NEVER buy it if thats all it could do. This is a very important part of PC building - knowing that u can buy the 100$ model and overclock to the level of the 1000$ model.
So i hope u understand why im angry that there are no Micron D9-based 6400C4 Dominators. The only other Micron-based modules are overpriced compared to the competition.

Then you should buy a different part. I'll be honest. The 6400C4D is not going to hit 8500C4. It just won't. Even if you get a Micron-based kit, it probably still won't.

Why? Because we screen the hell out of our Micron ICs to keep the fast ones in our upper-range of products. Because we can only make 5 of our top-end parts using Microns. So when we screen them, we sort them and make the fast modules with them. Anything that fails 8500C5 gets made into 6400C4, as that's the next step down.

So if you get lucky and get a set of 6400C4s that ARE Micron-based, chances are they'll perform very similar to the PROMOS-based set.

Micron-based parts are not a guarantee of 8500C4. I've had some really, really crappy Micron-based modules in my hands that I would (and did) trade for PROMOS-based parts in a second.

It's not the norm, but it does happen.

Not according to the review that ive linked to. And the fact that u have to hand-pick the Microns just to get to 8500C5 (not to mention 8888C4DF) dosent make a whole lot of sense due to the fact that ppl who buy 8500C5's can overclock past 9000C5 or more. I mean, every module can overclock somewhat, and if Microns cant, then what can?

We never sent them out to review sites, but we can't control if some review site buys modules off the shelf and puts them in a roundup. Still, if you ever find a review of the 6400C4D and it happens to be Micron-based, please post it here. I haven't ever seen one and I'd like to talk to any reviewer who did the review to see how that happened.

I dont recall too many sites reviewing the 6400C4D Dominators, wich i find wierd because much like the Creative X-Fi XtremeMusic mainstream part, those are the ones that most ppl are going to buy, no matter how lower-end they are.
However this does prove ur claim of never having sent them out to be reviewed to be true, to the extent i can see.
In any case, i dont think the reviewer would have know/written the IC type.

Where else are we going to announce it? Go to every enthusiast forum on the planet and post a "JUST SO YOU GUYS KNOW" thread? It's not our responsibility to do that. It's our responsibility to produce parts that perform to the spec and give headroom. It's above and beyond the call of duty to post what ICs are in each module, but we do that anyway.

Now you're asking that we not only put it on our own forums, but also put out a Press Release or something? Components change on modules all the time. The 1.1 to 1.2 change might be something as small as a different resistor or a new heatsink adhesive. Should we announce all those changes as well?

Thats actually interesting u say that.. because I really do think that changing the chips from Micron D9 to PROMOS is a big enough thing that u would want to put out a press release about it. It seems like a pretty good reason to put out a press release.
But i can see that u dont feel the same way, and dont think that its such a big deal.

I handled the exchange for people outside of the US.

Well, I think the cost for the shipping would have made the whole deal more expensive than if i was to buy another pair of 8500C5D's.

You want to overclock, that's fine, but overclocking is not a guarantee. We sell parts guaranteed to overclock for a reason: because we can guarantee they'll hit that speed.

I know the fun of overclocking is taking a lower-spec part and hitting a higher spec, but to me it seems like what you're asking is kind of unreasonable.

If you buy an E6300 and want to hit 3.6 GHz with it, do you complain to Intel that yours only hits 3.3 GHz instead? I mean, the 6400C4D can do a 10-20% overclock, that's free performance. Doesn't cost anything. You just tweak the settings and voltage and there you go. Now your complaint is that it doesn't go from 800 CAS4 to 1066 CAS4 for the same price?

That's pretty unreasonable.

That is unreasonable, you're right. But i know that its unreasonable because i know how high they can overclock after reading tons of reviews about them, so i would never ask for that.
I have seen the 6400C4D's hit 1066Mhz, so i dont think its unreasonable to ask for that or think that thats what im going to get.
If i had bought the 6400C4D's (wich i was very close to doing), i would have been disspointed when i took them home and tried to get them to 1066Mhz, because according to what u say, i would not have been able to have done that even on CL5.

Thanks. I'm a pretty big enthusiast myself and always have been, ever since the first PC I bought was a piece of crap and the tech support for it consisted of one guy who barely spoke english and liked to hang up on people for no reason at all. I had to learn the hard way, but it's a labor of love and I really like my job, I get to make new products and they pay me to take your opinions into a meeting with the CEO and tell him "look, the customers seem to like X and Y, not A and B." and most of the time they listen.

"A labour of love", thats a perfect way to phrase it in my opinion. Building a PC or learning about parts is not easily done, but its something that u want to do.
Your job seems even more fun, since u actually get to make a difference in not only ur own life and PC hardware experience but also everyone else's. I can only imagine the joy of looking at a product that u proposed, or seeing that ppl are buying it and enjoying it.
The fact that they listen not only helps themselves, but promotes the growth of the entire industry and so i respect that very much.

I can't control our competitor's prices, if you go buy 800 CAS3 modules for less than we sell them, well, that's great. We never claimed to be the world's cheapest memory. We claim to be the world's most awarded and the world's fastest. These claims stand strong.

Part of the reason our performance parts are so expensive is because of the labor costs involved with sorting various Micron ICs for different parts, and the extensive testing procedures we have. Anybody can go buy unsorted Micron parts, throw them on a PCB, slap a heatsink on them, run them through a quick sort, and say "These are 6400C3s if you use 2.4 volts" but that's cheap and ridiculous. They might be right 85% of the time, and just expect the other 15% to RMA them or not to care. That's cool for them.

Im glad to see that the cause behind the reason ive respected Corsair as the leader in memory is true. Your products truly are of better quality according to what u say, although i dont agree that the other companies' products are cheap and rediculous. Companies such as Crucial or G.Skill or OCZ wich dont need 2.4 volts to get to 6400C3.
Ive always thought ur products are the best. And thats why not having a Micron-based hurts me because i fear i may not be able to afford anything above the 6400C4D. Although i feel as if companies like Corsair and OCZ wich have their big names ahead of them, tend to price their products higher than their competitors, such as G.Skill who sell 6400C3 for less than ur 6400C4D's. From this i can understand only 2 things - their products arent as "high quality" as ur products, or when i buy Corsair.. im paying for the name aswell as the product, wich is always something i hate doing.
I wish u didnt have to hand-pick the chips, for that just drives up the cost and i dont care if they are not sorted as well as they can be.

For us, our RMA rates are in the low, low single digits. Even on mass market parts. Our performance is guaranteed and proven in review after review. We're the only company with a module rated at 1250 MHz that you can actually purchase (when it's in stock! It sells out like crazy eve

Well, Id like to think that u get ur name because u make great products.
I just wish the prices were lower.

I will be honest. If you want 1066 @ CAS4, you don't want the 6400C4D. Best of luck in your search for a part that can do that. I wish you well.

Im not sure why i want 8500C4.. not sure if its so much better than 8500C5.
But i do, and i dont think ill be able to find it with Corsair, since the closest module - the 8888C4DF costs 3 times what i want to spend.
Do u think that the 6400C4D is worth it even though i can get 6400C3 from another company for less? Is there an overall reason to buy Corsair even though the products arent the best?

 

[Tracker]

Crucial is better! *runs*

Just kidding don't hurt me! Go Corsair!

Actually Geil is better. If u want the best price/performance ill share the list I made.

 

[Retsam]

I dont know what that list means but....geil is not the best price/performance ratio heh.

I think youre reading way too much into timings man. What you are failing to grasp is, even if some chips are "RATED" at slightly higher timings than perhaps another set of modules, that does NOT mean those higher rated modules could not easily achieve the same timings or lower.

For example, by your definition: Buffalo firestix, which have rated timings of 5-5-5-15 and are micron d9 chips. These are terrible modules in your eyes right? Because they are cas5? Well, you are not grasping the fact that they can actually do upwards of 1066mhz with 4-4-4-12 timings.

What youre doing is looking at timings and saying "These are good, because they have low timings" You are not even considering what chips they use or how they overclock. What you are saying is the best is the Geil 3-3-3-8 for $240? Are you kidding? You can get OCZ pc2-8500 micron d9's for $169AR... Or firestix lately for $120ish....That is the best price/performance ratio.

 

[Tracker]

I dont know what that list means but....geil is not the best price/performance ratio heh. but anyways....

That list clearly proves that it is.

 

[Retsam]

That list clearly proves that it is.

Oh yeah clearly.........

 

[Donkers]

From that list, say we loosen timings to 5-6-6-18 on each... which ones would hit DDR2 1200? Then which is the cheapest? Cuz, I'm looking for 600 fsb for the least $$.

 

[Tracker]

Oh yeah clearly.........

You are just dissing what i say for no reason and with the proof right in front of u.. if the point was to annoy me, well done.

 

[Tracker]

From that list, say we loosen timings to 5-6-6-18 on each... which ones would hit DDR2 1200? Then which is the cheapest? Cuz, I'm looking for 600 fsb for the least $$.

They are all Micron D9 chips.. logic dictates they will all reach the same clock speed.

But ur not going to be able to get to 600Mhz FBS with that cooler. The only way would be to lessen the multiplier to 6x so that ur CPU speed will be 3600Mhz. Not that going from 540 to 600 will show any performance difference whatsoever.

 

[Tracker]

You are not even considering what chips they use or how they overclock.

Just because u dont understand it dosent mean that its wrong (thank god).

Those are all Micron D9 chips. Logic dictates (as ive just said) that they will all be able to do 8888C4.

There are no 5-5-5-15 modules that have Micron D9 chips unless the clocks are really high. So yeh, they ARE terrible modules. The logic is that if u can do 6400C4, then ur not going to use the same chips for 6400C5 because u can make more money off of the 6400C4.

Thus ur claim is reffuted.

 

[Donkers]

They are all Micron D9 chips.. logic dictates they will all reach the same clock speed.

But ur not going to be able to get to 600Mhz FBS with that cooler. The only way would be to lessen the multiplier to 6x so that ur CPU speed will be 3600Mhz. Not that going from 540 to 600 will show any performance difference whatsoever.

No, not with the Tuniq... a buddy with 2 pots and DICE is coming over on Monday.

What about these?
http://www.ncix.com/products/index.php?sku=23691&vpn=FSX800D2C-K2G&manufacture=Buffalo

 

[Mansize_tissue]

I don't understand why you're moaning about Corsair when their memory still runs at its rated frequency, timings and voltage. They aren't made to be run at higher-than-stock speeds, so why should they pay more when producing them when they'll still be sold with the same specifications as before. In my eyes, if you can overclock it then it's a bonus.

 

[troisanh]

I don't understand why you're moaning about Corsair when their memory still runs at its rated frequency, timings and voltage. They aren't made to be run at higher-than-stock speeds, so why should they pay more when producing them when they'll still be sold with the same specifications as before. In my eyes, if you can overclock it then it's a bonus.

My exact thoughts.

 

[Retsam]

Just because u dont understand it dosent mean that its wrong (thank god).

Those are all Micron D9 chips. Logic dictates (as ive just said) that they will all be able to do 8888C4.

There are no 5-5-5-15 modules that have Micron D9 chips unless the clocks are really high. So yeh, they ARE terrible modules. The logic is that if u can do 6400C4, then ur not going to use the same chips for 6400C5 because u can make more money off of the 6400C4.

Thus ur claim is reffuted.

Well, you are seriously confused my friend. You have some odd logic. Anyways, I was just trying to show you your error in thinking, but I think I will stop. I think you pretty much showed you have no idea what you are talking about if you think Buffalo Firestix are crappy modules because they are "rated" at cas5. It is ok to be wrong though.

One of these days you will get some experience and do your own testing and realize, timings actually make little difference in realworld performance anyways. Im not sure why you are so obsessed with low timings. If you think the difference in speed from cas4 to cas5 is a dramatic difference in speed, you are mistaken. I think you will find these days, that most people buy memory that can overclock higher, and less people that focus on timings. There is a reason for that.