Power supply experts, please step in *pics included*

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dukenuke88

[H]ard|Gawd
Joined
Jun 22, 2011
Messages
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Alright heres the story. The system I built back in April has been rock solid. I recently got my GTX 580 SLI system, so I decided to go on a Crysis marathon. Played 1, Warhead, 2, all back to back. When I finally got done with 2, I step outside to get a drink, when I come back my computer is shut off. Not freeze, shut off.

I tried to turn it back on and it just stays at the black screen. No post beep, doesn't go any further. Reset CMOS, still the same. My cold cathode lights turn on and so do all my case fans. Btw all my case fans are connected directly to the PSU, none to the motherboard. The only thing I noticed fishy, my Noctua NH-D14 fans do not spin. And those fans are connected directly to the motherboard. First thing comes to my mind is my motherboard is bad...since my PSU is powering everything else....and yes, I did do this test

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FWXgQSokF4

So anyway I call up Asus, since my motherboard is a P8P67 Pro, I qualify for Asus premium service (basically an advanced RMA)...so right now I'm just waiting for them to send me the paper forms to fill out credit card for collateral. While I'm waiting, I poked around my power supply just to check stuff out and noticed a few things





I noticed my 24 pin, the two plastic housing you see where my index finger is, theres some damage. Also the gold "pins" are further down inside the plastic housing on only these two, and the rest of the 22 pins are equal in depth. Do you guys think my power supply is responsible for my computer not getting into POST? Remember, all case fans and cold cathodes turn on...btw, I'm very careful when handling things...and IMO, its pretty hard to damage the 24 pin unless you are drunk, or purposely man handle the thing into the motherboard...besides, the damage looks more like it "over heated, warped" the plastic, if anything

I looked up on wikipedia, those two yellow wires where the damaged housing, it says its 12V

Thanks in advanced..my PSU is an XFX 850w 80 plus silver
 
looks to me like you are correct, those pins look fried
 
Time to contact XFX as well. I'm surious as to how that happened, and at a strange time like that.
 
HeavensCloud said:
Time to contact XFX as well. I'm surious as to how that happened, and at a strange time like that.
Click to expand...

thats what I am wondering too...but I don't want to go in blind and make a fool out of myself to XFX. I'm wondering if warped connectors are common with bad power supplies?
 
dukenuke88 said:
thats what I am wondering too...but I don't want to go in blind and make a fool out of myself to XFX. I'm wondering if warped connectors are common with bad power supplies?
Click to expand...

Nope, they are "common" with single rail units(meaning no OCP), this happens when you draw too much current threw a single connector(more than is supposed to handle).. usually happens with more powerful units(this was/is rather common with Corsair HX1000 and other such high output single rail units).

What is your setup, and is there any damage done to the 24pin socket on the motherboard?

Your PSU is a high quality Seasonic unit, you messed something up.
 
Profumo said:
Nope, they are "common" with single rail units(meaning no OCP), this happens when you draw too much current threw a single connector(more than is supposed to handle).. usually happens with more powerful units(this was/is rather common with Corsair HX1000 and other such high output single rail units).

What is your setup, and is there any damage done to the 24pin socket on the motherboard?

Your PSU is a high quality Seasonic unit, you messed something up.
Click to expand...

P8P67 Pro
2500k
XFX 850W
8GB G.Skill
GTX 580 SLI

No theres no damage to the motherboard. And please tell me how I damaged my connector? I'm very careful when working on my computer...and I find it very hard to actually damage the connector, like in the picture...unless you are drunk or purposely man handled it onto the motherboard

And my XFX/Seasonic is a single rail....
 
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dukenuke88 said:
And my XFX/Seasonic is a single rail....
Click to expand...

I know, that's why this happened, multirail units have Over Current Protection that shuts down the PSU when overloaded to protect it, making it very hard to overload your connectors to the point where they melt, like in your case.

When I said you mess something up I wasn't referring to physical damage inflicted to the hardware by your poor handling/skills. I was referring to MoBo + VGAs + PSU combo, something went wrong that made your motherboard draw more power through the 24pin connector instead of the EPS 8pin or ATX 4pin, or in case your mother has them(didn't bother to check) PCIe and/or Molex connector to supplement the graphic card/s needs.

Lets put it this way, the stock 580s have one 6pin and one 8pin each, that amounts to 225W, the PCIe slot can deliver up to 150W too, which makes for a grand total of 375W per card, all that additional power comes from the 24pin connector, which in some cases can be too much and you end up this way when there are no protections present.. if you had the cards overvolted than is pretty much settled..

This issue is a combination of factors, a motherboard not designed to support such power hungry cards in conjunction with a single rail PSU(doesn't really matter how good it is, as yours is among the best Silver units ever to reach the market)

Higher end motherboards have PCIe and/or Molex connectors near the PCIe slots to avoid such issues..

Advice to keep in mind, when going for 800W+ PSUs, try to get a multirail unit, it will avoid such problems.. also, having custom PCB GTX 580 solutions could have avoided the issue too, as most of them have double 8pin connectors as opposed to 6pin + 8pin.
 
So you're saying since my 580 SLI were power hungry, it drew extra power from the 24 pin and ended up melting my connector and shutting down my system? And running a 4 pin molex near the PCI-E can help relieve the 24 pin from drawing too much?

Also, how does a multi rail 800W+ solution help with my scenario? Sorry for all the noob questions, I'm just trying to learn thats all.
 
He already said the multi rail has Over Current Protection whereas the single does not. If this is all the case why did it happen when you weren't even playing the game?
 
dukenuke88 said:
So you're saying since my 580 SLI were power hungry, it drew extra power from the 24 pin and ended up melting my connector and shutting down my system? And running a 4 pin molex near the PCI-E can help relieve the 24 pin from drawing too much?
Click to expand...
Yes, having a PCIe 6pin or 8pin is even better, again this is only needed for very high power draw cards which for some reason have poor power connections(Reference GTX 480 and GTX 580 and few custom ones which stick to the 6pin + 8pin solution), the difference between 6pin + 8pin and two 8pin connectors is 75W, when you factor two cards you get 150W that suddenly need to be provided through the 24p motherboard connector.

dukenuke88 said:
Also, how does a multi rail 800W+ solution help with my scenario? Sorry for all the noob questions, I'm just trying to learn thats all.
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ATX 24p, EPS 8p, PCIe 8p/6p are provided by different rails on multirail PSUs, so when one connector gets overloaded the rail in question does too and it shuts down the PSU to prevent damage to your computer.. on single rail PSUs there is no such thing, all connectors are provided by a single rail and it doesn't care that you draw 500W threw a connector that's supposed to provide half that, as long as it doesn't overload the PSU it will continue to provide power.
Your PSU worked as intended(if I were the one responsible for your RMA request I would deny a replacement) :)
 
High +12V Output & Multi-GPU Technologies Supported
The 850W XFX ProSeries XXX Edition semi-modular PSU features DC to DC converter design and a high +12V output of up to 70A to ensure the maximum compatibility and provision of 12V power. It is also AMD CrossfireX ready and NVIDIA SLI Ready certified and comes with 4x PCI-E 6+2-pin connectors, allowing you to build your ultimate multi-GPU gaming power house.


This is from the manufacturer, so I don't think OP did anything wrong. A PS should shut down before melting IMO.
 
HeavensCloud said:
He already said the multi rail has Over Current Protection whereas the single does not. If this is all the case why did it happen when you weren't even playing the game?
Click to expand...

Cause computers don't draw anywhere near as much power when at the desktop. His power usage is probably around 40-50 watts per card, all of which can be supplied by the PCI-E connector, and not through the ATX connector.

If your board does not have a molex or SATA or PCI-E port built in to supply power to the PCI-E slots, you can always get this: http://www.evga.com/products/moreinfo.asp?pn=100-MB-PB01-BR At $10, it's not much of an investment to keep this from happening again.
 
HeavensCloud said:
He already said the multi rail has Over Current Protection whereas the single does not. If this is all the case why did it happen when you weren't even playing the game?
Click to expand...

i have no idea...the computer shut down as soon as I exited crysis 2, after finishing my marathon...I walked outside the room for a minute and came back it was shut off

so do you think they would deny me warranty? i don't get it, I mean there are plenty of single rail high watt PSU out there..and theres plenty of guys who run 2 or 3 580s...are all of them in jeopardy of getting their shit blown up and warranty denied?
 
HeavensCloud said:
High +12V Output & Multi-GPU Technologies Supported
The 850W XFX ProSeries XXX Edition semi-modular PSU features DC to DC converter design and a high +12V output of up to 70A to ensure the maximum compatibility and provision of 12V power. It is also AMD CrossfireX ready and NVIDIA SLI Ready certified and comes with 4x PCI-E 6+2-pin connectors, allowing you to build your ultimate multi-GPU gaming power house.


This is from the manufacturer, so I don't think OP did anything wrong. A PS should shut down before melting IMO.
Click to expand...

You don't understand what I'm saying.. his graphic cards have one 6pin and one 8pin connectors each.. if they were two 8pin connectors each this shouldn't have happened.. this has nothing to do with PSU connectors ;)
 
dukenuke88 said:
i have no idea...the computer shut down as soon as I exited crysis 2, after finishing my marathon...I walked outside the room for a minute and came back it was shut off
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Because they got a chance to cool and contract.
dukenuke88 said:
so do you think they would deny me warranty?
Click to expand...
Go ahead and try an RMA, if they do deny it, you only need to change the 24pin connector, the PSU is in perfect working order.
i don't get it, I mean there are plenty of single rail high watt PSU out there..and theres plenty of guys who run 2 or 3 580s...are all of them in jeopardy of getting their shit blown up and warranty denied?
Click to expand...
You don't get a word I'm saying.. a single rail PSU is perfectly ok as long as you know what you're doing and understand the risks associated with some poor setup choices, you don't Need a multi rail PSU for high power systems, you Want one as it provides safety in situations such as this, which are not that common.
 
I dunno, I guess it's over my head. I'll just follow to know what not to do in future builds, not that I'll ever get anything but Corsair.
 
HeavensCloud said:
I dunno, I guess it's over my head. I'll just follow to know what not to do in future builds, not that I'll ever get anything but Corsair.
Click to expand...
Corsair units are all single rail =))

And the unit above is better than anything Corsair has to offer except for the AX line ;)
 
It's all about the customer service, having spontaneously blown a HX620 already haha.
 
Profumo said:
I know, that's why this happened, multirail units have Over Current Protection that shuts down the PSU when overloaded to protect it, making it very hard to overload your connectors to the point where they melt, like in your case.

When I said you mess something up I wasn't referring to physical damage inflicted to the hardware by your poor handling/skills. I was referring to MoBo + VGAs + PSU combo, something went wrong that made your motherboard draw more power through the 24pin connector instead of the EPS 8pin or ATX 4pin, or in case your mother has them(didn't bother to check) PCIe and/or Molex connector to supplement the graphic card/s needs.
Click to expand...

Not possible. The ATX 4P/EPS 8P is reserved for the CPU ONLY. The motherboard will not get ANY power at ALL from that connector; it all has to come via the 24-pin. Assuming the GTX 580`s draw all available power from the slot (75W each, 150W total), plus 25W for the motherboard chips... that's 175W (but it's not all 12V, there's 5V and 3.3V loads from PCIe and the mobo chips) to push through two 12V wires, which is reasonable (ATX12V 4-pin pushes 100W through two wires). The wires shouldn't be overloaded.

Profumo said:
Lets put it this way, the stock 580s have one 6pin and one 8pin each, that amounts to 225W, the PCIe slot can deliver up to 150W too, which makes for a grand total of 375W per card
Click to expand...

75W for the slot. 375W is max PCIe spec, with 75W from slot plus 300W from two 8-pin.

Profumo said:
Higher end motherboards have PCIe and/or Molex connectors near the PCIe slots to avoid such issues.
Click to expand...

Those are preferred for three and need for four cards. Certainly not needed for two cards.

Profumo said:
Advice to keep in mind, when going for 800W+ PSUs, try to get a multirail unit, it will avoid such problems.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. Rails are commonly 20A with an OCP limit of 25-30A. 20A alone is 240W, so even with one single rail powering the mobo, you're well within the limit of the rails, and the wires.

Either the wires are too thin (the unit is made by Seasonic, but who knows if XFX made changes to the wiring) or there was a short (seems more likely).
 
Profumo, I am doing some more research and it seems to be other people melting their 24 pin as well, the same #10 and 11 pins....I also read those links you provided, thanks btw....

So I'm thinking of picking this Antec HCP-1200 in the mean time. It has 8 12v rails. Will this pair up fine with my 4pin molex-less P8P67 Pro mobo?
 
dukenuke88 said:
Profumo, I am doing some more research and it seems to be other people melting their 24 pin as well, the same #10 and 11 pins....I also read those links you provided, thanks btw....

So I'm thinking of picking this Antec HCP-1200 in the mean time. It has 8 12v rails. Will this pair up fine with my 4pin molex-less P8P67 Pro mobo?
Click to expand...

:)
Yes it will, and that is a great PSU, however the problem isn't lack of power, your current PSU has more than enough power for those two cards, the problem is finding a way to deliver the power to the cards without overloading the 24pin connector.. look at the link Tsumi provided, if you can buy a couple of those you're good to go with your current PSU(providing XFX replaces it or fixes the 24pin connector for you).

If you still want to buy a new PSU, the HCP 1200 is the best high output unit available on the market but is severe overkill for your needs and really a waste of money :)
 
Profumo said:
:)
Yes it will, and that is a great PSU, however the problem isn't lack of power, your current PSU has more than enough power for those two cards, the problem is finding a way to deliver the power to the cards without overloading the 24pin connector.. look at the link Tsumi provided, if you can buy a couple of those you're good to go with your current PSU(providing XFX replaces it or fixes the 24pin connector for you).

If you still want to buy a new PSU, the HCP 1200 is the best high output unit available on the market but is severe overkill for your needs and really a waste of money :)
Click to expand...

i completely agree with you...hcp 1200 absolute overkill for two 580's & overclocked sandy bridge. but I have a micro center coupon for 20% off any power supplies and total comes out to be $185 out the door (mail in rebate and tax included)...and I don't see anything else in their catalog that catches my attention (multi rail and 800W+)...I mean I could go single rail and buy one of those evga power boosters...but I want to save that PCI-E for my sound card :(
 
That is a pretty badass deal for the HCP, I wouldn't say no to that either..
Regarding the PCIe slots, your motherboard has 2x PCIe x1 and one PCIe x16(electrically x4) in addition to the two you're using for the graphic cards, and you only need one of those three for a sound card, you can use the other two for that evga contraption :)
 
This issue tends to happen when there is poor contact between the pin on the motherboard and the socket in the connector. This leads to higher resistance, which causes more heat to be produced at the connection, which is what caused the connector to burn. It's not easy to determine whether the cause is the motherboard side or the PSU side, so my suggestion would be to RMA both items.
Profumo said:
Nope, they are "common" with single rail units(meaning no OCP), this happens when you draw too much current threw a single connector(more than is supposed to handle).. usually happens with more powerful units(this was/is rather common with Corsair HX1000 and other such high output single rail units).
Click to expand...
This is not due to a lack of OCP, and the HX1000 is not a single-rail unit either.
 
Zero82z said:
This is not due to a lack of OCP, and the HX1000 is not a single-rail unit either.
Click to expand...

In this regard it is, two single rail units put together, making it a 'dual rail' unit with no OCP.. this issue has been beaten to pulp and easily reproduced.. there is simply too much stress put on the 24p connector.
 
Profumo said:
In this regard it is, two single rail units put together, making it a 'dual rail' unit with no OCP.
Click to expand...
Right, so it's not a single-rail unit.
Profumo said:
there is simply too much stress put on the 24p connector.
Click to expand...
That's because there are only two +12V wires, not because too much current is being drawn from the PSU. OCP wouldn't help unless it was set to an absurdly low limit that would negatively affect the PSU's ability to supply power to other devices on the same rail.
 
Profumo said:
the difference between 6pin + 8pin and two 8pin connectors is 75W,
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Not to be contrary sir, but I beg to differ.

My understanding is that the +2 pins are both redundant grounds. Now, surely plenty of current return path is a good thing, but without corresponding 12V conductors the total safe current draw will be the same with a 6 pin or a 6 pin with extra grounds.

I have seen a solution from EVGA that is a PCIe 1x cardlet with nothing on it but a molex 4 pin...the idea being to plug these into any unused 1x slots to deliver more current safely to the buss.
 
jojo69 said:
Not to be contrary sir, but I beg to differ.

My understanding is that the +2 pins are both redundant grounds. Now, surely plenty of current return path is a good thing, but without corresponding 12V conductors the total safe current draw will be the same with a 6 pin or a 6 pin with extra grounds.

I have seen a solution from EVGA that is a PCIe 1x cardlet with nothing on it but a molex 4 pin...the idea being to plug these into any unused 1x slots to deliver more current safely to the buss.
Click to expand...

:)
Nope, there is one ground and one 'sense'(I think, I don't know the exact English terminology for this), the 6pin connectors are good for 6.25A while the 8pin connectors for 12.5A, with margins obviously.

The EVGA solution was discussed and also suggested on the first page of this thread.
 
jojo69 said:
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/PCI_Express_(PCIe)_8pin_power

I am really not trying to argue with YOU, this is a gripe I have had for a while. I understand that the specs claim that those two extra 12 or 14 gauge ground wires double the capacity of the plug...but I do not believe it.
Click to expand...

:)
Well, you can always ask a reputed reviewer on this or other forums how much power are they pulling from each connector and at what amperage the wires start melting.
 
jojo69 said:
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/PCI_Express_(PCIe)_8pin_power

I am really not trying to argue with YOU, this is a gripe I have had for a while. I understand that the specs claim that those two extra 12 or 14 gauge ground wires double the capacity of the plug...but I do not believe it.
Click to expand...

You're arguing with the PCI-SIG then. They deemed that enough for 150W. Do you have more experience than them? Are in you a position to challenge a widely-used standard?
 
Profumo said:
Nope, there is one ground and one 'sense'(I think, I don't know the exact English terminology for this), the 6pin connectors are good for 6.25A while the 8pin connectors for 12.5A, with margins obviously.
Click to expand...
Most manufacturers don't implement the sense wire and put another ground there instead.
jojo69 said:
http://www.allpinouts.org/index.php/PCI_Express_(PCIe)_8pin_power

I am really not trying to argue with YOU, this is a gripe I have had for a while. I understand that the specs claim that those two extra 12 or 14 gauge ground wires double the capacity of the plug...but I do not believe it.
Click to expand...
That's because it doesn't double the capacity of the connector. 6-pin connectors can provide just as much power as 8-pin connectors. All the current still has to flow through the +12V wires, and both connectors have the same amount of those.
iconiK said:
You're arguing with the PCI-SIG then. They deemed that enough for 150W. Do you have more experience than them? Are in you a position to challenge a widely-used standard?
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It's a standard. That doesn't mean it's based on any physical realities. There is nothing in an 8-pin PCI-E connector that allows it to deliver more power than a 6-pin.
 
Zero82z said:
This issue tends to happen when there is poor contact between the pin on the motherboard and the socket in the connector. This leads to higher resistance, which causes more heat to be produced at the connection, which is what caused the connector to burn. It's not easy to determine whether the cause is the motherboard side or the PSU side, so my suggestion would be to RMA both items.
Click to expand...

i was thinking the same thing. maybe it is as simple as not having the connector pushed in all the way.
 
iconiK said:
You're arguing with the PCI-SIG then. They deemed that enough for 150W. Do you have more experience than them? Are in you a position to challenge a widely-used standard?
Click to expand...

well hmmmm

I am really not trying to pick a fight here. Lets think through this shall we? The extra 2 pins on the PCIe 8 pin ARE in fact both ground conductors. So while the PCIe 6 pin has 3 12V pins and 3 Gnd pins the PCIe 8 pin has THE SAME 3 12V pins and 5 Gnd pins. Then the standard states that these extra two grounds somehow magically allow the 12V pins to carry TWICE THE CURRENT, and then the OP, and plenty of other folks, start MELTING THE 12V FEEDS on their 24 pin connectors.

hmmmmm

Well, far be it from me to question industry experts
 
jojo69 said:
well hmmmm

I am really not trying to pick a fight here. Lets think through this shall we? The extra 2 pins on the PCIe 8 pin ARE in fact both ground conductors. So while the PCIe 6 pin has 3 12V pins and 3 Gnd pins the PCIe 8 pin has THE SAME 3 12V pins and 5 Gnd pins. Then the standard states that these extra two grounds somehow magically allow the 12V pins to carry TWICE THE CURRENT, and then the OP, and plenty of other folks, start MELTING THE 12V FEEDS on their 24 pin connectors.

hmmmmm

Well, far be it from me to question industry experts
Click to expand...

I tend to agree with you here, the standards are pretty poor, but there are solutions available, like the one mentioned here from EVGA or simply a motherboard with additional power connectors for the PCIe slots.. and it's really hard to give a fuck when it only affects multi VGA GTX 480 and GTX 580 setups, which are anything but common.
And with 28nm GPUs around the corner, any new standards implemented to address specifically this issue are pretty much pointless now.
 
jojo69 said:
I am really not trying to pick a fight here. Lets think through this shall we? The extra 2 pins on the PCIe 8 pin ARE in fact both ground conductors. So while the PCIe 6 pin has 3 12V pins and 3 Gnd pins the PCIe 8 pin has THE SAME 3 12V pins and 5 Gnd pins. Then the standard states that these extra two grounds somehow magically allow the 12V pins to carry TWICE THE CURRENT, and then the OP, and plenty of other folks, start MELTING THE 12V FEEDS on their 24 pin connectors.
Click to expand...

I know that. It means the three wires can carry 150W happily (hell, two can carry 200W to the motherboard happily, why couldn't three carry less?) and the grounds are just for safety or whatever. It is also possible to have a 6-pin be able to carry only 75W while an 8-pin 150W (a physical limitation) by using thicker wires on the 8-pin, though you'll only see that on completely junk power supplies.

Point is the OP's issue isn't caused by overloading the two 12V wires in the 24-pin ATX connector.

The 12V wires are capable of supplying the power (200W worst case) to the motheboard. The wires are commonly 18AWG, which can supply 11A; at 12V that's 132W per wire, for a maximum of 264W. Please tell me how you can draw more power than the wires can handle using two graphics cards (three is too close for comfort without another power connector for the PCIe slots).
 
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OK, I don't think any of us are really disagreeing.

My bet is that the limitation is not in the wires themselves but in the physical connection interface. We have manufacturers, even reputable ones, sourcing connectors and headers out in the general marketplace and everyone is struggling to control costs. You get a connector/header combination that don't mate that well, load it, it gets hot, gets a little scortchy carbon on the surface, this increases resistance at the interface...so it gets hotter, round and round we go until the plastic melts down.
 
jojo69 said:
OK, I don't think any of us are really disagreeing.

My bet is that the limitation is not in the wires themselves but in the physical connection interface. We have manufacturers, even reputable ones, sourcing connectors and headers out in the general marketplace and everyone is struggling to control costs. You get a connector/header combination that don't mate that well, load it, it gets hot, gets a little scortchy carbon on the surface, this increases resistance at the interface...so it gets hotter, round and round we go until the plastic melts down.
Click to expand...

Well those Molex connectors are hardly reliable. This is why modular power supplies aren't used in most computers, except DIY stuff. If we were all using Deans connectors (or something solid like those) this wouldn't be an issue :(
 
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