Power Amp question

[Trimlock]

First off my Amp right now can supply 80 watts RMS per channel just fine, I figured I'm usually pushing mid 40's with no distortion. But now I have a pair of Klipsch RP-280F's coming in, which are very efficient and with my current room will have no issue being powered with what I have.

But I want to have something to crank these things to get the cops called on me, especially when the new Star Wars releases in a month. I'm looking for a Power Amp that can push high 100's to mid 200's RMS and handle those peaks for when these things want to pull 400watts. The problem is the higher quality Power Amps cost an arm and a leg.

So am I stuck getting something like Emotiva's or are there better power amps (cost respective) out there?

 

[|Tch0rT|]

You're vastly over estimating the power you use and need for those Klipsch speakers, they're have a higher sensitivity than other speakers which means they don't need as much power as other speakers. You're probably not using anywhere near 40 watts especially if you have a sub. It takes double the power just to gain 3dB. Check this calculator:
Peak SPL Calculator

You can easily hit reference level with 80 watts. Depending on how big your room is and how far away you sit you can get in the 110dB range which can cause permanent hearing damage if played long enough.

Stuck getting an Emotiva? Emotiva's are fine mostly though the one you link is low power, though some people think they're lowly cheap amps but those opinions are by snob audiophiles that don't understand how things work. There's always the Crown XLS series that's proven but they're pro amps so they tend to have bright lights and such, other pro amps can have loud fans but Crowns are quiet especially in home use.

 

[Trimlock]

BTW I don't have them yet, they get delivered in about one week to me. BTW Klipsch has AWESOME delivery service, free delivery to anywhere in the states to include Hawaii and Alaska (I'm in Hawaii).

Right now with the speakers I have, when watching a movie at cinematic levels I'm pulling 40watts at max, I think I could probably pull 60watts with the RP-280F's in some situations. My question was for when I want it loud for when I'm not sitting infront of a movie (music) or when I eventually move away from here and get a big living room again like the one I had in Phoenix. I wanted to shoot for high 100's on the power amp mostly due to me thinking I would have zero need for anything greater than 150 watts in any occasion in my life. A sub may accompany these things, that's a build project I'm working on right now, still undecided.

I actually love Emotiva, they are super cost effective already but still a bit on the high side for what I was looking into and I find they are usually the only go-to brand for home theater power amps. I was wondering if anything like a Behringer rack mount would be a good idea or not as I know they can be loud. I see you mentioned Crown, I actually have never used them and I'll give them a look.

Anyways thanks for the great response, I appreciate the help!

 

[Nenu]

I use an Emotiva XPA 2 for my front pair and its quite frankly astounding for the money.
My version is 300W/ch minimum.
I have never driven it to its max, most of the time its power meter is less than 1/3 when playing very loud.
This is with 91dB speakers.

My brother spent £2200 on his Cyrus monoblocks and we couldnt tell the difference.
And he never concedes defeat on his hifi, he usually says nothing instead but he couldnt deny this after we put a lot of effort into the comparison.
We are both Bass and clarity nuts btw, it really is that good.

Comparing it to the well praised Onkyo 875 AV amp (my last amp)...
Using the same high end DAC directly feeding both amps, there is more detail, bass response is deeper & stronger and its much more dynamic.
Imaging is vastly improved, it was quite a transformation I didnt expect.

 

[Trimlock]

Hey Nenu thanks! I'm a bit of a sound nut but far from a snob, I like good sound but I won't pay out the end for some unicorn product filled with pixie dust.

From these two responses, it looks like Emotiva is probably going to be my best brand. This has me excited to try, but I won't be going down this rout for maybe another year, I'll have to keep an eye out for a used version but that XPA 2 is very sweet.

 

[Nenu]

np.
Emotiva recently stopped making their reference class amps (XPR series) that I wanted to buy but they wouldnt ship to the uk because they were too fragile.
Now they are supposedly upgrading the XPA series, although there is one new reference amp on limited edition.
They might be available by the time you buy.
The XPA amps have had an update since I bought mine almost 4 years ago.
Both my XPA 2 and XPA 3 have been reliable and they get a lot of use. (XPA 2 gets around 16hrs per day)

 

[Nenu]

BTW I don't have them yet, they get delivered in about one week to me. BTW Klipsch has AWESOME delivery service, free delivery to anywhere in the states to include Hawaii and Alaska (I'm in Hawaii).

Right now with the speakers I have, when watching a movie at cinematic levels I'm pulling 40watts at max, I think I could probably pull 60watts with the RP-280F's in some situations. My question was for when I want it loud for when I'm not sitting infront of a movie (music) or when I eventually move away from here and get a big living room again like the one I had in Phoenix. I wanted to shoot for high 100's on the power amp mostly due to me thinking I would have zero need for anything greater than 150 watts in any occasion in my life. A sub may accompany these things, that's a build project I'm working on right now, still undecided.

I actually love Emotiva, they are super cost effective already but still a bit on the high side for what I was looking into and I find they are usually the only go-to brand for home theater power amps. I was wondering if anything like a Behringer rack mount would be a good idea or not as I know they can be loud. I see you mentioned Crown, I actually have never used them and I'll give them a look.

Anyways thanks for the great response, I appreciate the help!

I somehow missed this post.

I have an iNuke 3000 powering a 1KW seat shaker and have tried the iNuke 1000.
They are not good hifi amps, not close.
If you use some of the features (there are a LOT) there is a lag and for Hifi use the sound quality is nothing compared to the XPA 2, huge loss of detail and a bit shrill.
One should make a good subwoofer amp though. I helped set up a subwoofer system with one and he was more than happy, this was online, I didnt hear it.
They make a fair noise. Mine is under the sofa so is a lot quieter. The subwoofer chap changed the fan on his (warranty became void).

imo avoid digital amps unless you can hear/properly compare them and make an informed decision.
There are decent digital hifi amps and are improving all the time but they have a tough standard to meet on sound quality and cost.

 

[Trimlock]

np.
Emotiva recently stopped making their reference class amps (XPR series) that I wanted to buy but they wouldnt ship to the uk because they were too fragile.
Now they are supposedly upgrading the XPA series, although there is one new reference amp on limited edition.
They might be available by the time you buy.
The XPA amps have had an update since I bought mine almost 4 years ago.
Both my XPA 2 and XPA 3 have been reliable and they get a lot of use. (XPA 2 gets around 16hrs per day)

Super good news, I'll keep checking back and see how these new references are if they ever drop. I still like what they have in stock but I was a bit disappointed to see some of their products no longer available.

I somehow missed this post.

I have an iNuke 3000 powering a 1KW seat shaker and have tried the iNuke 1000.
They are not good hifi amps, not close.
If you use some of the features (there are a LOT) there is a lag and for Hifi use the sound quality is nothing compared to the XPA 2, huge loss of detail and a bit shrill.
One should make a good subwoofer amp though. I helped set up a subwoofer system with one and he was more than happy, this was online, I didnt hear it.
They make a fair noise. Mine is under the sofa so is a lot quieter. The subwoofer chap changed the fan on his (warranty became void).

imo avoid digital amps unless you can hear/properly compare them and make an informed decision.
There are decent digital hifi amps and are improving all the time but they have a tough standard to meet on sound quality and cost.

That's too bad about a lack of detail, I can live with minor detail loss when going for full range in a bigger area but this sounds like a much bigger loss than what I or anyone would go for. I wonder if the shrill is due to the common ground loop issues, as in if I can apply an isolator and remove it, still doesn't sound worth it. I was going to use the iNuke for a sub, still probably will, they have a good price/performance for what they do. Plus I love the idea behind Class D amps.

I've employed a few Class D amps before and they sounded great, actually just about every Bluetooth speaker uses a Class D, but I have yet to hear one that does anything greater than 20watts a channel, or at least >20watts and still gets less than 1% THD.

Looks like i'll stick to the tried and true AB for now on these higher ranges. Thanks again!

 

[HammerSandwich]

Trimlock, seems to me that the excitement of getting new equipment is in effect. You're planning your next amp purchase when:

1. you don't plan to buy for a year
2. or after moving to a larger house,
3. and haven't tried the new towers yet.

Chill! You'll have a much better idea after trying the RP-280Fs with your current amp.

BTW, what is that amp? How did you determine that you've been using 40ish watts?

And what speakers do you have now? |Tch0rT| is correct about the RP's sensitivity. 98dB means they'll go LOUD on a given amp, at least assuming the spec is accurate, probably significantly louder than what you're used to. Also note the point about power versus dB; for example, 5dB makes a moderate subjective difference at a 300% factor in power from the amp. Play with a software volume control that has a dB scale, if you don't have a good feel for what a 3, 5 or 10dB difference sounds like.

Most class-D amps (which are not, in fact, digital) produce different high-frequency response at different loads, which helps to explain experiences such as Nenu's. Figure 1 here provides a recent example of this behavior.

You're going to have trouble finding a new class-AB amp with 150+W for $200ish. Emotiva makes high-value class-AB amps (& has a new line of class-D coming soon), but their prices ain't that low. Ebay has a lot of used gear at low prices, so you might want to watch some of the bigger brands such as Adcom & Parasound. Of course, shipping to Hawaii might kill this plan.

 

[Trimlock]

Trimlock, seems to me that the excitement of getting new equipment is in effect. You're planning your next amp purchase when:

1. you don't plan to buy for a year
2. or after moving to a larger house,
3. and haven't tried the new towers yet.

Chill! You'll have a much better idea after trying the RP-280Fs with your current amp.

lol yea I'm chilling, I was getting a feel for anything out there that may be better price comparison than Emotiva's.

I haven't tried these specifically out yet but I've heard the RF 82ii's, which was one of the reasons for me buying these. I like the idea of the new/different horn direction they went. From what I have read, they removed a bit of the treble punch but enhanced music listening quite dramatically. I figured with these they will be used for 70 movie/30 music.

BTW, what is that amp? How did you determine that you've been using 40ish watts?

I measured at the terminals, I estimated that 40 watts is my peak listening right now, it might be on the high side.

And what speakers do you have now? |Tch0rT| is correct about the RP's sensitivity. 98dB means they'll go LOUD on a given amp, at least assuming the spec is accurate, probably significantly louder than what you're used to. Also note the point about power versus dB; for example, 5dB makes a moderate subjective difference at a 300% factor in power from the amp. Play with a software volume control that has a dB scale, if you don't have a good feel for what a 3, 5 or 10dB difference sounds like.

That amp I linked wasn't actually the one I intended to link (realized that way too late) I ment to just link to the Power Amp section of their website.

I have an older Klipsch Quintet, which does a good job of providing clean sound. I wanted the additional Power Amp (down the road) for some pretty specific events, I mentioned Star Wars mostly do it being a test movie, I won't be hooking these up to a Power Amp to listen to Star Wars 10 ft away . I haven't been that impressed with the audio of a movie since Saving Private Ryan.

I understand about the sensitivity, it was a driving factor in the purchase of these. I promise to be very careful when adjusting these for listening value!

Most class-D amps (which are not, in fact, digital) produce different high-frequency response at different loads, which helps to explain experiences such as Nenu's. Figure 1 here provides a recent example of this behavior.

You're going to have trouble finding a new class-AB amp with 150+W for $200ish. Emotiva makes high-value class-AB amps (& has a new line of class-D coming soon), but their prices ain't that low. Ebay has a lot of used gear at low prices, so you might want to watch some of the bigger brands such as Adcom & Parasound. Of course, shipping to Hawaii might kill this plan.

Thanks for the link, I'll have to read it later. My plan was originally to look for new but that quickly changed to wait to get a used one. As for shipping to HI, I won't be here in a year, which is the reason for my time frame. When I get back stateside I'll be a bit more open with regards to shipping, which is the reason I'm starting to look now. I have looked into Adcom and Parasound both on Ebay and have seen some pretty good prices, but its hard to gauge what shipping is since it automatically adjusts for me in Hawaii. So it may look like I'll just have to wait till I get back to the mainland anyways.

I have a strong appreciation for Class D amps, but I know all of jack about them in a non-mobile environment.

Again you guys have been of great help, thanks for all the responses! I am very excited to try out the new speakers when they arrive.

 

[Nenu]

Yeah soz about the Digital vs Class D confusion. When I first studied this method (many moons ago) it was in a Digital electronics class and was termed a Digital amplifier.
Hard habit to break.

98dB, thats crazy.
Op, HammerSandwich is right about the power requirements.
To further what he said, +3dB on sensitivity needs 1/2 the amplifier power to sound as loud, +10dB needs 1/10 the power.
Your speakers being 7dB more sensitive than mine need 1/5 the power for the same loudness! (my speakers being 91dB which is not bad)
(note, +10dB output "sounds" twice as loud, ears are logarithmic)

However as they are termed a reference speaker, one has to assume they will be quite revealing.
Get the best class of amp you can manage, you will get a lower noise floor which makes it easier to hear tiny detail.
You will also get improved cross talk which will improve imaging.
And being so sensitive you will likely keep a high power amplifier in its Class A region of operation.
You will also get superb dynamics, the headroom is massive.

Dont be worried about using a very high power amplifier more than the speaker needs, I normally recommend it to prevent amplifier clipping, but in your case it isnt really needed.
Your ears wont let you overdrive them, not even close.

 

[Trimlock]

Yeah soz about the Digital vs Class D confusion. When I first studied this method (many moons ago) it was in a Digital electronics class and was termed a Digital amplifier.
Hard habit to break.

Its cool, I assumed you were talking about Class D, since I linked to one anyways.

98dB, thats crazy.
Op, HammerSandwich is right about the power requirements.
To further what he said, +3dB on sensitivity needs 1/2 the amplifier power to sound as loud, +10dB needs 1/10 the power.
Your speakers being 7dB more sensitive than mine need 1/5 the power for the same loudness! (my speakers being 91dB which is not bad)
(note, +10dB output "sounds" twice as loud, ears are logarithmic)

However as they are termed a reference speaker, one has to assume they will be quite revealing.
Get the best class of amp you can manage, you will get a lower noise floor which makes it easier to hear tiny detail.
You will also get improved cross talk which will improve imaging.
And being so sensitive you will likely keep a high power amplifier in its Class A region of operation.
You will also get superb dynamics, the headroom is massive.

Dont be worried about using a very high power amplifier more than the speaker needs, I normally recommend it to prevent amplifier clipping, but in your case it isnt really needed.
Your ears wont let you overdrive them, not even close.

Good recommendations, I think I'll stick with starting on the lower spectrum and build up later. My requirements don't seem too demanding right now but you make really good points. If you don't mind me asking, what are the speakers you are using?

My shot for high 100's and low 200's on the channel output was to prevent clipping, but like I said earlier, this is a future purchase for something entirely different!

You guys are doing a great job of re-affirming this purchase btw

edit: These are considered Reference Premier, they have an upgrade to these to support Atmos, but that is beyond my budget.

 

[Nenu]

I built the front speakers from a kit comprising 10" Kevlar woofers in a Transmission Line, 5" Magnesium mids and Ribbon tweeters.
22Hz to 30KHz response but my room is hard to drive. I get decent response to 25Hz so I modded a BK Monolith DF Sub to take over down to 15Hz fed from the front speaker signal
They are mounted on spiked plinths, rubber tap washers isolate the speakers from the plinth.

IPL S5TL GOLD TRANSMISSION LINE
User reviews, look for S5TL
LETTERS FEEDBACK FROM IPL CUSTOMERS

forgot to mention...
The internal wire was replaced with 4mm Van Damme Hifi wire, this made the sound smoother and gave better bass response (it was already great but why not go the extra).
External speaker cable is Biwired 6mm Van Damme Hifi. Seriously, get this wire, its not expensive and it really is good.

 

[Trimlock]

haha 15hz, that's some serious punch right there! The sub I want to build probably won't hit 15hz that has to take some serious space. Did you do something like: MartySub FAQ - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews ?

That's an impressive kit, I want to make my own some day much like you did. I want to start cheap though, I've priced some pretty cheap Daytons and total costs for me are about $200 for 2x decent bookshelf style speakers. That looks like a UK only kit?

 

[Nenu]

Unfortunately not, I bought the sub before I thought about building my own.
I've seen some seriously good sub builds since but this is a bargain in its own right!
It has only a 300W RMS amp but is efficient enough that it has never bottomed out and I've pushed it extremely hard.
Monolith-DF
I modded the 40Hz low pass filter to start at 25Hz to match my front speakers response.

Yep its a UK kit but he does sell without the veneer and gives instructions on how to have it cut. (edit: oops, I meant MDF not veneer)
This page lists the different versions of kits.
IPL ACOUSTICS TRANSMISSION LINE KITS
Mine are the same colour as those speakers in the middle, they look fantastic!

You can buy the speaker units, crossovers, other bits and pass the MDF instructions to a wood cutters yard.
It would end up cheaper as well.

I built the S4TLs for a friend and there was very little difference in sound, they are exceptional.
I also did a slightly better job because mine were built first and were the guinea pigs.
And my cat chewed my grills lol!

Photos attached

 

[Trimlock]

And my cat chewed my grills lol!

Photos attachedView attachment 817 View attachment 819

lol those are the real problems. Neighbor's dog chewed the corners on my speakers.

They look good! I like the spec's on those, I'd be interested in the crossovers alone.

and that is some serious punch that little sub.

 

[Nenu]

Cheers.

lol the sub images are deceptive, its a 46Kg chunk o'wood!
The top is about 3/4 the height of my legs when spiked into a wooden base thats flush to the floor.
Not bad for a 12" design, the cone hardly moves when its strutting its stuff.
Normally a bigger box/speaker is needed to get such a loud response that low.

ps if you have a wooden floor, mount your sub on a solid wood board, it will tighten the bass up and reduce room boom.
If you get this problem with your new speakers, do the same (spike the speakers board to the floor)

 

[Trimlock]

lol the small comment was a tongue in cheek, but jesus that thing is heavy! I'd like to get to 15hz but not right now That is a very efficient design, I'll have to keep it in mind when I go for my project, see what they did to get that low out of that set up.

Good to know about the speakers, I've never heard of that and I don't care for room boom. I a carpet floor but I will look into possibly modding the base on these, although I think they are made with the intention that the user will have carpet. These are going to be top of a very thick rug.

Btw I just saw your earlier edit, mentioning the Van Damme cable, it appears I can only find these from UK sellers? Are they any comparable cables that you'd recommend? I'm using general grade 14 AWG right now and was going to pick up some higher grade at a local store here, but I like the way they added the center shielding, nice braiding too.

 

[Nenu]

The speakers dont need anything doing to them directly, just stand on a solid wood/MDF base will help even if the base isnt spiked into the floor.
Spikes on the base are icing on the cake if you can use them and can be used to help angle the speakers up/down if needed.
Isolate speakers from the base with large rubber tap washers from a local DIY store on all 4 corners. Dirt cheap, just the thing. Dont spike the speakers onto the base.
You can double up the washers at the front or rear if the speakers need tilting further.
Using a base made a huge difference reducing my room boom, especially on the sub. I found this with my previous sub and confirmed it with my current one.
The base can be painted.


Ah thats unfortunate about the wire.
I checked and it seems Van Damme isnt available over there any more.
Its hard to advise without experience of specific cables but I'll add my 2p and some safe guidelines.

I have used 9 and 11AWG recently, I wont go anything less than 11AWG.
9AWG external allowed my speakers to extend quite a bit deeper than my previous 13 AWG, all bass became a bit stronger
Same when I changed the internal speaker wire to the 11AWG, that improved the bass as well.
My friend uses 11 AWG external because 9 AWG was too fat.
But your speakers are very sensitive so less current will flow. 10 or 9 AWG should work well for you.
(I tried to find 11 AWG (6mm squared) but theres sod all on US Amazon)

If your speakers can biwire it might be worth trying. Its a low cost upgrade if it works.
On mine, if I go back to a single cable the treble/mid becomes a little fuzzier, less well defined, imaging suffers.
But I have a £1k DAC, it might not matter so much with a different DAC. You need to decide not me though.
You wont need such a fat wire for treble/mid but be sure to use a fat cable on the woofers.
I used the same wire for both just cos.
Both wires feed into the same binding posts on my amp.
Better to use direct binding post connections rather than speaker connectors/plugs if its not a problem.

Find a well reviewed cable - by a LOT of people. Discard if there are not a lot of reviews unless you are sure of what it is.
Avoid anything that mentions tinned wire or none copper wire in the description or reviews.
Search under speaker cables for "10 AWG" with quotes, you will still have to weed out the non 10 AWG.
Look for Oxygen Free Copper or OFC in the description.
Read the negative reviews as well as the positives to be aware if there are a large number of people calling scam.
Make sure it is hugely popular.
Luckily there appear to be quite a few cables that dont cost much.

Use as short a wire as you can get away with (without looking ugly) as wire only detracts from the sound, its a necessary evil.
Same length for both speakers though.
Good luck

ps shielding wire reduces high frequency response, its a gimmick on speaker wire imo.
Use shielded only when something in your house is susceptible to interference from speaker cables (unlikely).

 

[Trimlock]

The speakers dont need anything doing to them directly, just stand on a solid wood/MDF base will help even if the base isnt spiked into the floor.
Spikes on the base are icing on the cake if you can use them and can be used to help angle the speakers up/down if needed.
Isolate speakers from the base with large rubber tap washers from a local DIY store on all 4 corners. Dirt cheap, just the thing. Dont spike the speakers onto the base.
You can double up the washers at the front or rear if the speakers need tilting further.
Using a base made a huge difference reducing my room boom, especially on the sub. I found this with my previous sub and confirmed it with my current one.
The base can be painted.

Ah, sorry didnt' mean to sound like I was planning on bolting them to some MDF. These do come with spikes and that's a very good idea with the rubber washers, I have quite a few laying around from a plumbing job I did way back when. That should come in handy.

Ah thats unfortunate about the wire.
I checked and it seems Van Damme isnt available over there any more.
Its hard to advise without experience of specific cables but I'll add my 2p and some safe guidelines.

I have used 9 and 11AWG recently, I wont go anything less than 11AWG.
9AWG external allowed my speakers to extend quite a bit deeper than my previous 13 AWG, all bass became a bit stronger
Same when I changed the internal speaker wire to the 11AWG, that improved the bass as well.
My friend uses 11 AWG external because 9 AWG was too fat.
But your speakers are very sensitive so less current will flow. 10AWG should work well for you.

If your speakers can biwire it might be worth trying. Its a low cost upgrade if it works.
On mine, if I go back to a single cable the treble/mid becomes a little fuzzier, less well defined, imaging suffers.
But I have a £1k DAC, it might not matter so much with a different DAC. You need to decide not me though.
You wont need such a fat wire for treble/mid but be sure to use a fat cable on the woofers.
I used the same wire for both just cos.
Both wires feed into the same binding posts on my amp.
Better to use direct binding post connections rather than speaker connectors/plugs if its not a problem.

Find a well reviewed cable - by a LOT of people. Discard if there are not a lot of reviews unless you are sure of what it is.
Avoid anything that mentions tinned wire or none copper wire in the description or reviews.
Search under speaker cables for "10 AWG" with quotes, you will still have to weed out the non 10 AWG.
Look for Oxygen Free Copper or OFC in the description.
Read the negative reviews as well as the positives to be aware if there are a large number of people calling scam.
Make sure it is hugely popular.
Luckily there appear to be quite a few cables that dont cost much.

Oh well, its too bad about the brand. Still I had my eyes set on some normal stuff around here. I didn't even think to look specifically for Oxygen free, you seem to very passionate about your wires lol. I'll have to look for 10 AWG specifically

I plan on looking inside when I get them to look for any shipping damage and keep an eye out for any possible cable upgrades I can do easily, I imagine there wouldn't be much of an opportunity, I hear these things are pretty solid inside.

I can bi-wire but I only have a 40wattx2 class D amp available. Doesn't really seem worth it, I may play around with this later.

Use as short a wire as you can get away with (without looking ugly) as wire only detracts from the sound, its a necessary evil.
Same length for both speakers though.
Good luck

ps shielding wire reduces high frequency response, its a gimmick on speaker wire imo.
Use shielded only when something in your house is susceptible to interference from speaker cables (unlikely).

lol yea, I will be leaving at least 2 ft of slack, looped and attached to the cab behind them or on the wall via some hook,

As for the shielding I just thought that center plastic piece looked cool. Thinking about it now that may present an irritant with trying to reform it after its sat in one position for so long. Either way its not in a high EMI spot, no WiFi close to it either.

What size board do you have under your towers?

Finding tons of popular 12 AWG but not 10 AWG on Amazon.

Amazon.com: C&E 100 Feet 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable, CNE62270: Electronics
Amazon.com: Monoprice 100ft 12AWG Enhanced Loud Oxygen-Free Copper Speaker Wire Cable: Electronics

Then theres this...

Amazon.com: Bullz Audio 10-Gauge 25-Feet Speaker Wire, Blue/Silver: Car Electronics

Little information and super cheap price, doesn't seem very legit.

 

[Nenu]

The base is just a bit larger than the speaker footprint.
The top edges are indented with a router to look nicer.
As long as the speaker can sit stable, the size doesnt matter much, its more for aesthetics.

I now use my base to prevent the door behind it hitting the speaker so my speaker is slightly offset to the side.


Heh, passionate about speaker wire.
I suppose to some degree but I'm not a fan of spending silly cash unless it makes a good difference.
OFC because its cheap anyway and you might as well give your treble an easier path to navigate. I havent compared the difference on the same type of cable.
I've compared my cable to my brothers expensive wires and his werent any better.
But one thing is for sure, fat wire for bass, we both agree.

The only cable I spent a lot on was my interconnect but thats because I decided to go for broke and get the best. I made my own from silver.
It seriously works, my brother ended up doing the same.
We both have practically the same DAC though and it might not be so worthwhile without such a detailed signal.
A few weeks ago I took a silver cable to my friend with the above oak speakers, he has my old DAC which is more on a par with a high end soundcard, perhaps a bit better.
On well mastered music, it made a good difference to the detail. It helped other music too but wasnt worth the approx cost of £70 to him. (£25 for the wire, £50 for the silver bullet RCA connectors)
But his seating position was crap and has now moved house and wants to try again.

Not all mods are for everyone and not all mods suit all equipment.
If your system is already bright, dont put silver wire in unless you are prepared to mod your tweeters crossover (we did this to get it exact).
If your system is lacking brightness/detail, it might be your holy grail!


Shit, sorry, I meant 12 AWG.
Just checked the page I had open and its all 12 AWG. :blush:
Your first choice looks the business.

...Although the low end reviews are from many people who got about 3/4 the length ordered.
Perhaps the monoprice is the better bet.


edit:
to clarify why I went for silver interconnects...
I had a hard time choosing what to buy and they reach ridiculous prices. I just couldnt decide.
My brother has tried quite a lot of interconnects and there is quite a difference in clarity and bass response between some.
I reasoned that for the amount I was prepared to spend I could make my own.
I had already seen that open dielectric, non shielded cables are more revealing so took that route and bought silver wire with a cotton dielectric.
These are simply soldered to the terminals of the RCA connectors with no shield, no twist. Mine and my brothers systems gained a lot more detail and stereo effects.
My system gained a little hiss that could be heard when close to the speakers but not from where I sit. So I switched from RCA to pretty cheap silver plated XLR connections. This was much cheaper (despite needing 3 wires per speaker) and just as good, it completely got rid of the hiss.
My brother has absolutely no noise despite using much longer RCA wires so is sticking with what he has.

A decent benefit can be got without using pure silver connectors and just silver wire.
It costs a lot less than high end none exotic cables and made a hell of a difference to our systems.
Much more than he got from his other £150 interconnects.
fyi

 

[Trimlock]

I have some un-covered MDF that fits the bill. I'll go ahead and rout off the edges and give them some sheen to better blend in.

I'll keep the system in tact, but I'm just looking inside for damages like I said. But I'm also interested in the guts, I'll look online later on down the road to see if anyone has a detailed mod for the crossover, that's if it needs it.

Figured you were talking about 12 AWG, I went with the first brand all of my 14 AWG is that brand too. I've also used it in cars, very reliable stuff in my experience.

As for your edit, yea I can for sure see why you went with that path. I'm shocked the cable was able to get rid of the hiss, normally that's some type of cross over or bleed in effect from either common grounds or EMI. Are these modded RCA cables to achieve the effect or did you purchase the caps and solder the wire on yourself? I'll probably get some silver wire when I decide to expand. If I get any hisses then this may be the road to correction!

 

[Nenu]

I'd better explain it

Normally the RCA return path is also a shield around the signal wire.
Unshielded RCA cables can pick up EM signals which mine did.
My computer is in the living room and is the major source of my small hiss when close to the tweeter.
My brothers computer is in a different room to his hifi, he has no discernible hiss with RCA, even with an ear up to the tweeter.
Note that my hiss was constant amplitude, it didnt change with music volume. It didnt ever get louder because the RCA leads fed directly into power amps.

XLR is a 3 wire connection per channel, RCA is a 2 wire connection per channel.
XLR is used instead of RCA to reduce common mode EM noise, and it also doubles the signal strength.

It works by providing 2 signal wires and a single common ground.
One of the signal wires is inverted. ie if one wire sends 0.8V, the other will send -0.8V
At the receiving end, one wires signal is subtracted from the other which removes noise common to both wires and doubles the signal voltage.
(to be clear on that, 0.8V - -0.8V = 0.8V + 0.8V = 1.6V)

XLR removes most common mode noise without needing a shield and gives a better s/n ratio even when there is no common mode noise to remove.
With the common mode noise removal as well it gives a much better s/n ratio.
Some people have reported the ability to hear a little more detail with XLR.
I've yet to do a direct comparison between RCA and XLR to see if I can hear any more detail, I wouldnt like to say whether it does or not until then.


Something worth noting...
Twisting the wires will prevent some EM pickup and prevents some EM transmission. (but constant close proximity of 2 wires can introduce capacitive effects and the twist can add some inductive as well, not so good for RCA. fyi)
My DAC accepts a USB input from PC which I sometimes use. I found that different USB leads gave a slight change to the sound (difference in detail, smoother/harsher sound), so...
I made a custom unshielded USB lead with a mild twist to the signal wires to aid EM rejection (cost about £15). Without the twist it didnt work at all.
But my fridge switching on sometimes crashed my DAC because the EM noise was picked up. Tightening the twist on the wires improved this.

We didnt twist our unshielded RCA wires so we could keep all the benefits.
My brother occasionally hears a mild crack noise when his fridge switches on. That is the only bad side effect he has and isnt damaging.
Strangely I didnt ever hear my fridge switching when I used unshielded RCA, it just crashed the USB DAC at times before I improved the twist on the USB lead.

In environments with a lot of EM noise it might not be a good idea to use unshielded RCA leads.
You can test it cheaply with simple copper wires.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

Well this thread went from worrying about small stuff that doesn't matter much into smaller stuff that doesn't matter much.

Isolation doesn't do anything (placement is far more important):
Testing Loudspeaker Isolation Products

You don't need fancy speaker wire and 16awg is fine and no need for fancy interconnects, OFC copper is LOL, think about it...):
Speaker Wire

Bi wiring does nothing and don't mod your crossovers unless you know what you're doing or follow a well known guide for that specific speaker but it's mostly not worth it unless you go active which guts the passive anyway.

Getting the speaker placed right in the room will do more for your sound than anything else discussed in this thread. Beyond that you need room treatments and measurement equipment to get better sound.
How to set up a room

 

[Trimlock]

Something worth noting...
Twisting the wires will prevent some EM pickup and prevents some EM transmission. (but constant close proximity of 2 wires can introduce capacitive effects and the twist can add some inductive as well, not so good for RCA. fyi)
My DAC accepts a USB input from PC which I sometimes use. I found that different USB leads gave a slight change to the sound (difference in detail, smoother/harsher sound), so...
I made a custom unshielded USB lead with a mild twist to the signal wires to aid EM rejection (cost about £15). Without the twist it didnt work at all.
But my fridge switching on sometimes crashed my DAC because the EM noise was picked up. Tightening the twist on the wires improved this.

We didnt twist our unshielded RCA wires so we could keep all the benefits.
My brother occasionally hears a mild crack noise when his fridge switches on. That is the only bad side effect he has and isnt damaging.
Strangely I didnt ever hear my fridge switching when I used unshielded RCA, it just crashed the USB DAC at times before I improved the twist on the USB lead.

In environments with a lot of EM noise it might not be a good idea to use unshielded RCA leads.
You can test it cheaply with simple copper wires.

lol I used to have that problem with certain electronics, but only when I started using certified APC surge protectors. You could unplug one, wait for it to discharge then replug it in and shut down half the house, which is usually a sign of poor wiring or circuit overload (hint: We weren't overloading it). I'm pretty well isolated from those big noise problems but we shall see when things start to get serious.

Well this thread went from worrying about small stuff that doesn't matter much into smaller stuff that doesn't matter much.

Nah not really worrying, more so just inquiring if the scene on power amps changed much. I was a bit excited in my original post, but it was just to get things started. Really just exchanging with Nenu over simple stuff.

Isolation doesn't do anything (placement is far more important):
Testing Loudspeaker Isolation Products

I agree placement is more important but isolation matters for those who need it. I doubt I'll need to do any isolation, but still I have yet to get my stuff.

You don't need fancy speaker wire and 16awg is fine and no need for fancy interconnects, OFC copper is LOL, think about it...):
Speaker Wire

Well OFC is advertised on just about every cable 16AWG and bigger, sweating over it probably isn't worth it but I'm in a high humidity area, which could prevent corrosion, not to mention it isn't expensive. Yes I did splurge on 12 AWG but why not, now I have a spindle of 12 and 16.

Bi wiring does nothing and don't mod your crossovers unless you know what you're doing or follow a well known guide for that specific speaker but it's mostly not worth it unless you go active which guts the passive anyway.

I've seen bi-wired set ups before, not in the super high end but I'm also not sold on it. I could give this a shot in the future but I'm not gunning to set it up right now. As for the crossover that's not something I'm planning on doing, these speakers are fairly new and doubt there are any guides out there for these. I hear great things about these speakers, especially on the highs anyways so I doubt it would be necessary unless I get really finicky.

Getting the speaker placed right in the room will do more for your sound than anything else discussed in this thread. Beyond that you need room treatments and measurement equipment to get better sound.
How to set up a room

Again I agree, I'll be moving in less than a year, placement right now will mostly be judged without the use of equipment. At my next location I'll be better setup to purchase any equipment I may need to and follow on from there.

Thanks again for responding to the thread though, I appreciate the links. Do you have any recommendations on measurement equipment (rental/used/new) to set up speakers? A sub will be in the future but I'm still trying to come up with what I want, I do want it to be a personal build though.

 

[|Tch0rT|]

Well OFC is advertised on just about every cable 16AWG and bigger, sweating over it probably isn't worth it but I'm in a high humidity area, which could prevent corrosion, not to mention it isn't expensive. Yes I did splurge on 12 AWG but why not, now I have a spindle of 12 and 16.

OFC is marketing fluff. OFC isn't about preventing corrosion, if it had oxygen in it then it would already be corroded and they would be selling defective products. 12 awg is fine, just overkill and as long as it's not that crazy $100+/ft garbage that claims sonic benefits. I use 14 awg on my subs and they have 800 watts each on tap and the wire run for about 25 ft.

I've seen bi-wired set ups before, not in the super high end but I'm also not sold on it. I could give this a shot in the future but I'm not gunning to set it up right now. As for the crossover that's not something I'm planning on doing, these speakers are fairly new and doubt there are any guides out there for these. I hear great things about these speakers, especially on the highs anyways so I doubt it would be necessary unless I get really finicky.

It's not even worth giving bi-wiring a shot, the effect it has is the same as using thicker wire so you're fine. It's a sales tactic to get people to spend more on wire since dealers don't make as much on speakers or other equipment. There's people who swear by it but it's placebo and expectation bias.

Thanks again for responding to the thread though, I appreciate the links. Do you have any recommendations on measurement equipment (rental/used/new) to set up speakers? A sub will be in the future but I'm still trying to come up with what I want, I do want it to be a personal build though.

This is the go to for a measurement mic:
Acoustic Measurement Tools : UMIK-1

In conjunction with Room EQ Wizard (REW) and a measurement mic you can see the effects placement and room treatment have once you learn the software If you do go that route this is a guide to help:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

Sorry if I come off a bit rude with this stuff but I feel like people focus and obsess over the wrong areas in audio. If you want to learn more I suggest these two books:
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents): Floyd Toole: 9780240520094: Amazon.com: Books
The Audio Expert: Everything You Need to Know About Audio: Ethan Winer: 0888680010379: Amazon.com: Books

If you have about 2 hours to kill I recommend these two videos that covers a lot of the BS to avoid:

 

[Trimlock]

OFC is marketing fluff. OFC isn't about preventing corrosion, if it had oxygen in it then it would already be corroded and they would be selling defective products. 12 awg is fine, just overkill and as long as it's not that crazy $100+/ft garbage that claims sonic benefits. I use 14 awg on my subs and they have 800 watts each on tap and the wire run for about 25 ft.

Impurities in any metal, when exposed to the air environment will cause corrosion, especially when current is applied. The reason why its not already corroded is due to the strand being covered in plastic. The corrosion I'm talking about is the one that could happen at the terminals. I've seen corrosion at the terminal, is it due to not using OFC? I don't know, but since OFC is already on everything and does offer that value in hypothesis then I'll buy into it.

Oh yea 12 AWG is over kill, paid $30 for a spindle of 100ft. Local Radio Shack had 14AWG in a spindle of 50ft for $65 (don't ask..).

It's not even worth giving bi-wiring a shot, the effect it has is the same as using thicker wire so you're fine. It's a sales tactic to get people to spend more on wire since dealers don't make as much on speakers or other equipment. There's people who swear by it but it's placebo and expectation bias.

It definitely looks like it could have an impact on paper but it still is a solution hoping the problem exists for certain people. Very inexpensive add-on for the speaker maker, but can be expensive to use. Dealers don't make crap, I agree, its the reason why we have the R-28F's vs the RP-280F's. A dressed up $200 speaker to look like a $500 speaker.

This is the go to for a measurement mic:
Acoustic Measurement Tools : UMIK-1

In conjunction with Room EQ Wizard (REW) and a measurement mic you can see the effects placement and room treatment have once you learn the software If you do go that route this is a guide to help:
Simplified REW Setup and Use (USB Mic & HDMI Connection) Including Measurement Techniques and How To Interpret Graphs - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews

Awesome thanks!

Sorry if I come off a bit rude with this stuff but I feel like people focus and obsess over the wrong areas in audio. If you want to learn more I suggest these two books:
Sound Reproduction: The Acoustics and Psychoacoustics of Loudspeakers and Rooms (Audio Engineering Society Presents): Floyd Toole: 9780240520094: Amazon.com: Books
The Audio Expert: Everything You Need to Know About Audio: Ethan Winer: 0888680010379: Amazon.com: Books

If you have about 2 hours to kill I recommend these two videos that covers a lot of the BS to avoid:

Nah its cool, some people take a huge liking to setting up this stuff to achieve their master piece, consider art or something of that nature . There are some who buy into the whole "Monster" ideology of products and do believe they get that extra Hz out of their Polk monitors if they use gold tipped copper wire and that is aggravating.

I'll have plenty of hours tonight, the dude I'm training is done and I'll be kicking back and totally slacking off. I enjoy these video's, hopefully they aren't dry!

 

[FLECOM]

don't dismiss class D... I replaced all my McIntosh amps with (gasp) Crown XLS-1000's and they sound significantly better on my Martin Logans

 

[Trimlock]

What McIntosh did you replace? was it the 2255's?

 

[FLECOM]

2x 2505 and 2105... put those in my bedroom with my altec lansing speakers and they sound awesome there (16" woofer with coaxial horn)

I think partially the reason class D sounds so much better is the martin logans are electrostatic... they have some interesting qualities compared to regular moving coil speakers... as the frequency gets closer to 20khz the impedance can drop very very low...

the transformers in the Mc amps prevented damage but you start getting mismatches... the class D amps don't really care what impedance is

I went with the XLS series because they can do mono bridge x-over with a built in DSP... so I biamp my speakers with one amp, just set the crossover point and done... works really well

went to a 5.1 system too... so I have an XLS for each of my SL-3's in the front (bi-amped), one XLS bridged for my Cinema-i center, and one XLS for my EFX rears.. have an extra XLS I am going to use for possibly doing 7.1 with my old pair of Aerius-i, but just haven't gotten around to it

 

[HammerSandwich]

Impurities in any metal, when exposed to the air environment will cause corrosion...

I believe |Tch0rT|'s point is that copper will begin oxidizing as soon as it's exposed to air. Statue of Liberty's green for a reason.

 

[Trimlock]

2x 2505 and 2105... put those in my bedroom with my altec lansing speakers and they sound awesome there (16" woofer with coaxial horn)

I think partially the reason class D sounds so much better is the martin logans are electrostatic... they have some interesting qualities compared to regular moving coil speakers... as the frequency gets closer to 20khz the impedance can drop very very low...

the transformers in the Mc amps prevented damage but you start getting mismatches... the class D amps don't really care what impedance is

I went with the XLS series because they can do mono bridge x-over with a built in DSP... so I biamp my speakers with one amp, just set the crossover point and done... works really well

went to a 5.1 system too... so I have an XLS for each of my SL-3's in the front (bi-amped), one XLS bridged for my Cinema-i center, and one XLS for my EFX rears.. have an extra XLS I am going to use for possibly doing 7.1 with my old pair of Aerius-i, but just haven't gotten around to it

Intense amount of power per speaker, I really like your set up. I'd hate to see your power bill after a bing watching lol. Are the fans in those loud at all? I know Class D is very efficient so I wonder if you would need very much active cooling on that set up or not. One thing I like about Class D is their sudden drop off, when tuning smaller amps it has been easy to figure out their ceiling. I've got a project board with two TPA3116's, but I haven't pushed it to the RMS power per channel and it sounds pretty great on my 3-4" speakers, I'd like to test it on something better but getting a high quality set of speakers out here is terrible in shipping, even from parts express and most on Amazon don't ship. The ones that do ship from Amazon are usually too expensive for a project as well, so I don't get a lot of chances to test the limits of these small Class D's.

I believe |Tch0rT|'s point is that copper will begin oxidizing as soon as it's exposed to air. Statue of Liberty's green for a reason.

True, that isn't preventable but at the same time OFC is literally on every cable product. I mean OFC isn't really stating no-oxygen exists in the copper, just that its purer copper. Not something to worry about since it doesn't drive up costs. It was brought up by Nenu to consider when looking into cables, hes definitely a bit more passionate about it than most in this thread is.

 

[N4CR]

Aussie amplifiers diy kits are wicked, results with the best of the best. I have some NXV800 monoblocks, psus and a few other bits from him.

 

[FLECOM]

Intense amount of power per speaker, I really like your set up. I'd hate to see your power bill after a bing watching lol. Are the fans in those loud at all? I know Class D is very efficient so I wonder if you would need very much active cooling on that set up or not. One thing I like about Class D is their sudden drop off, when tuning smaller amps it has been easy to figure out their ceiling. I've got a project board with two TPA3116's, but I haven't pushed it to the RMS power per channel and it sounds pretty great on my 3-4" speakers, I'd like to test it on something better but getting a high quality set of speakers out here is terrible in shipping, even from parts express and most on Amazon don't ship. The ones that do ship from Amazon are usually too expensive for a project as well, so I don't get a lot of chances to test the limits of these small Class D's.

na, realistically I am not even coming close to using their potential, which at the impedence of my speakers is about 250WPC... the fans almost never turn on, and when they do they are completely silent... those amps are really impressive, they weigh nothing, they put out little heat, and sound great...

 

[Trimlock]

Aussie amplifiers diy kits are wicked, results with the best of the best. I have some NXV800 monoblocks, psus and a few other bits from him.

Have any links? I love DIY amp kits.

na, realistically I am not even coming close to using their potential, which at the impedence of my speakers is about 250WPC... the fans almost never turn on, and when they do they are completely silent... those amps are really impressive, they weigh nothing, they put out little heat, and sound great...

Figured, realistically what do you pull per speaker? If its less than 100watts per I may already have a solution here for power amping mine.

 

[FLECOM]

I don't think I pull more than 100WPC unless I am having one of those "ehh, screw the neighbors" kind of day... I know when I had my MC2105 running the panels I would max out occasionally (105WPC)

DIY class D stuff is just fine, I have used some of the kits from china with great success for various projects

 

[|Tch0rT|]

I think partially the reason class D sounds so much better is the martin logans are electrostatic... they have some interesting qualities compared to regular moving coil speakers... as the frequency gets closer to 20khz the impedance can drop very very low...

the transformers in the Mc amps prevented damage but you start getting mismatches... the class D amps don't really care what impedance is

I went with the XLS series because they can do mono bridge x-over with a built in DSP... so I biamp my speakers with one amp, just set the crossover point and done... works really well

went to a 5.1 system too... so I have an XLS for each of my SL-3's in the front (bi-amped), one XLS bridged for my Cinema-i center, and one XLS for my EFX rears.. have an extra XLS I am going to use for possibly doing 7.1 with my old pair of Aerius-i, but just haven't gotten around to it

Sweet ML system. I've seen some Class D designs that didn't like the lower impedance but they're not that common. I think they get that reputation from the car amps when they became popular for the SPL guys wanting to have amps that dump a ton of power into 1ohm loads. I like Crown amps since they usually are rated down to 2ohm stereo stable which isn't too common, even their class A/B amps like the XTi series are rated that way too, good for ML's ESL's since they can dip low. I run my ML ESL's on a THX Ultra certified Marantz MM9000 which claims stability down to 3.2 ohms or something like that, I've never clipped the amp. I would have a stack of Crowns but I got that Marantz for a good price. I plan on converting my ML ElectroMotion ESL's to active bi-amping at some point with a pair of Crown's.

 

[FLECOM]

isn't the XTi Class D also?? I am almost certain it is... I recently did an install at a friends house for a whole-house audio system... he said make it like a night club... so I did! stack of XLS amps and an XTi for the subs...

I love my ML setup man, I can't even explain how nice it is... I picked up most of the ML stuff off CL so didn't pay anywhere near retail... except for the EFX's, bought those new in box when a store down here was offering 20% off ML and 12 month financing... still was hard to convince myself to spend +$2k on rear speakers though in the end I am super happy with the result

 

[Trimlock]

I have to admit that is a very impressive ML set up. I'd say it would be worth it to give a Class D a shot, I'd like to see how some of my little Class D's go as well.

I believe the XTi is an AB, even if it doesn't state it, various threads say they are AB, even if they are light weight.

 

[N4CR]

Have any links? I love DIY amp kits.

You're in for a treat. They were the best I could find for large DVC sub duty, let alone normal monoblock use, I looked at everything on the market. Gold tracked PCBs, CEO of a high end German laser manufacturer I showed them to, opened his eyes quite wide... no cheap crap or corner cutting here. Makes my Arcams look like Chinese crap. Seen tests done with the most esoteric high end amps vs these and the aussie stuff take the win. More about quality design/components than flashy exterior bling. I will be buying some more in the near future.

Holton Precision Audio | Sound by Design

Had some custom Avel Lindbergs toroids wound for me, 12.5kg each, 1200VA with 1400VA cores to reduce magnetostriction and noise - same trick Krell uses


Some more monos, sub build complete, a Burson DAC and some 801Ds will finish the rig off for me, for another 10 years!