Playstation3 The fall of sony. LONG READ

Status
Not open for further replies.

eblislyge

Limp Gawd
Joined
Nov 8, 2004
Messages
202
Below I have purposefully left out alot of lesser known consoles at it would have made a long post even longer and none of them made a lasting impact or have even been heard of by most people. The exception being the Neo Geo which had a huge Arcade market but due to cost couldnt compete in the Home market.

If you look at the rise and fall of Consoles over the years it's easy to see a pattern. Almost predictable patterns.

When Atari Corp released the 2600 it had great initial success. However due to the limited nature of the technology programmers could'nt really do much to differentiate one title from another. Coleco released the Colecovision and Mattel the Intellevision and although these machines were more powerful then the 2600. Limited colors and nonexistent graphical capabilites quickly bored the consumers.

Games became a seen one seen them all fad to the consumer. This combined with crooked game reviewers and a huge lack of innovation resulted in the video game crash of the 80's.

Enter Nintendo, and the release of the Nintendo NES. 8 bit capabilities allowing more innovative and graphical game designs reopened the home gaming market with a vengeance. Games were longer, richer, more graphical, more detailed, and had better sound to top it all off.

Sega who wanted a piece of the American market released the Sega Master System to compete with Nintendo. However Nintendo had lucrative publishing contracts with it's third party developers and Sega could'nt get enough support from developers to make much of a dent.

Next we have NEC releasing the Turbo Graphix 16. This machine although truly a 8 bit machine and marketed as 16 bit was actually a pretty nice system. But Nec who had 0 experience as a console maker just could'nt grasp how to successfully manage a console company. Plus Sega who was eager to finally get some market share relased the SEGA GENESIS.

The Genesis being a true next gen 16 bit system quickly began making leaps and bounds over the competition. Next Gen graphics and some decent titles combined with aggressive marketing and a mascot named Sonic the hedgehog actually pushed Sega ahead of Nintendo in market share.

However with the release of Nintendos 16 bit Super Nintendo and Sega dropping the marketing ball and a rash of poor games saw Nintendo recover the lead.

Now comes along the Atari Jaguar, This sytem was extremely powerful compared to the consoles of the day. However this system had 5 processors and developers just werent prepared to sink the kind of resources(money) into the machine it would require to make titles for it. It quickly fail by the wayside.

Next to bat is the Sega Saturn a 32 bit CD-rom based system. This system utilizied duel processors and could have been a great system. However programmers at the time had no expereince with duel processors and only utilized one on the majority of the games written for it. It never gained much ground in the console market.

Sony launched the playstation during this time period which was also 32 bits, but was cheap to produce and easy to code for. Also by using Cd's instead of cartridges they had ample media space for more detailed graphics and music. They quickly gobbled up market share from Nintendo.

Nintendo countered with the release of the Nintendo 64. This was a really nice system with superb grapical capabilites and fast load times thanks to the continued use of cartidges as there game medium, But cartidges would be the deathnell for Nintendo's market dominance.

Cartridges although great for load times were and still are expensive to produce. This drove the cost of Nintendo's premier titles to over $70.00. Compared to $45.00 - $50.00 for playstation titles. Not to mention they could'nt cram as much content into a cartidge as they could a CD, so the games suffered as well.

Enter the Sega Dreamcast another great system that suffered from poor management and failed. The Sega dreamcast was technically a great system and still is even by todays standards. But Sega had manufacturing problems that would'nt allow it to be sold at a cheap enough price to gain enough market share for the system to be profitable.

Plus Sony had many loyal Gamers who simply would'nt switch over cause the Dreamcast just didnt have any titles that could sway them. Sony eventually pulled this sytem form the market and now just makes games.

Then along comes the Playstation 2 a very nice console which is quickly adopted by it's previous fanbase and takes more market share from Nintendo who had released it's new console the Nintendo Gamecube.

The Gamecube which is more powerful then the Playstation 2 cannot play Dvd's like the Playstation 2 due to a custom storage media size Nintendo has adopted. Nintendo continues to lose market share.

Next a newcomer to the console market Microsoft releases the Xbox. Borrowing heavily from it's Os and developers this system is 3 times as powerful as the PS2 and twice as the gamecube. Microsoft who had zero experience in the console market actually makes inroads at Sony's market share.

But lack of experience, no previous fanbase to draw on, poor manufacturing contracts which prevent them from lowering the Xbox to a lower price and several other issues keep the Xbox in a distant Second place to Sony.

Now were up to present day with the release of the Xbox 360. A beast of a console compared to any previous console it is powerful, fast, and easy to program for. We also see Microsoft with a previous fanbase to draw off of. Some backwards compatibility with the Xbox titles. And a huge wow factor.

Soon well see the launch of Sony's Playstation 3. It will be very powerful as well and has Sonys huge fanbase to draw off of. But theres one large problem for sony.

It is going to be much more difficult to program for then the Xbox 360. that combined with the huge budgets of millions of dollars being allocated to develop games on a time table. It's going to hurt Sony. Sony will see alot of developers pass on releasing titles for it's console and going to the Xbox 360 or the Nintendo revolution which is extremely easy to program for.

It will take less time and less money for devs to get a title on the shelves with either the 360 or Revolution. Also you will be seeing alot less of Multi Console luanches with this generation. The 360 and revolution will be seeing many more big name title launches simply because it will be easier to port one title from one system to the other. The Playstation 3 on the other hand will require significant coding to achieve the same performance.

The main problem is the Cell processor in the PS3. this 9 core processor looks so sweet on paper and has the potential to be. But to get some power out of this thing is going to require some serious programming. People, are generation of programmers are used to one processor machines.

Now what you will see happen is programmers trying to utilize the main chip of the core which is a 64 bit power pc chip. But without the use of its helper cores its not going to stand up so well against the xbox 360's duel core design. Which is much easier to program for since its cores are equal in terms of performance. And core for core should easily outperform the Cell.

We will no doubt see some great looking games from the PS3, but at what cost? How long will it take to code these games and at how much money comapred to the 360 or revolution.

Sony had initially released a statement claiming there system was more easy to program for then the 360, but lack of developer comment and common sense dictates otherwise. It will always be easier to devide something as complicated as computer code into 2 then 9.

Sony should have looked at the history of video game consoles and learned from other company's mistakes. (jaguar, saturn)

At the end of the day for gamers the quality and play factor will dictate which console they choose. But for developers its going to be market share and the amount of money it takes to release a title.

My guess two years from now will see the Xbox 360 with 65% of the market sony with 25% and Nintendo with %10.

Nintendo's system will be the easiest to program for, however lack of horspower under the hood will dictate that the games will look better on other consoles, and Developers will have more headroom to playwith releasing for the Xbox 360.
 
EDIT: Look, I reread my post and yeah, it does seem pretty mean. Understand that I don't pull punches and I do tend to be a bit rough when I spot something wrong. I take video game history very seriously. It's from that angle that I'm coming from. Nothing personal, but I had to say something. Don't take personal offense. I'm only attacking the material presented.

This article is so full of crap I'm surprised that you haven't sold it to farmers as a new form of "Miracle Gro". Your research and history is just plain awful. It's really, really, really bad. No, seriously. It's bad. Really bad. Can I tell you again that it's bad? Get the point that it's bad?

It would seriously take me three hours and a post five times as long to tear this thing apart and show you exactly how you screw this post up. I really don't have the time nor the inclination to do so at this time. I'm sure others will do it for me and maybe I'll do it tomorrow when I'm bored out of my mind and need something to occupy my time.

Look, eblislyge, I give you an A for effort, but when you get so many facts so absolutely wrong, (especially the history which is the basis of your "pattern") you deserve the wrath of the forum that's about to be unleashed upon you.
 
You've got some interesting tidbits in there, but that list is a little short sighted...and semi inaccurate in parts. I'll be nice...

Even with the difficulty in programming don't you think the wealth of titles exclusive to Sony's camp will garner them more market share?

Keep in mind that GTA in and of itself is a console seller. If that doesn't move you, allow me to introduce to you the Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter, Dragon Warrior, Getaway, Gran Turismo, God of War, and Sly Cooper franchises. Those are just the ones I can think of off hand. Oh yeah, Killzone, Metal Gear Solid, and whatever the next thing from the team behind Ico and Shadow of the colossus will be.

EA games will multiplatform every title they have, as will Sega with it's Sonic line of games. They can't afford to play that limited release game.

If anything, I think what will happen is that you will see more startup titles, or new franchises gravitate towards the systems that are easier to program for, and we'll just have longer to wait between the Sony exclusive titles while they get their learning curve on.
 
eblislyge said:
But theres one large problem for sony.

It is going to be much more difficult to program for then the Xbox 360.
I'm seeing this tossed around all across the internet as if it were hard, concrete fact. Never have I seen a source. So unless you spent the last couple of months coding for both the X360 and the PS3... source please.

eblislyge said:
The main problem is the Cell processor in the PS3. this 9 core processor looks so sweet on paper and has the potential to be.
The PS3 has seven active processors and one "redundant" proc. Just a nitpick.

eblislyge said:
But without the use of its helper cores its not going to stand up so well against the xbox 360's duel core design. Which is much easier to program for since its cores are equal in terms of performance.
See my first comment.

eblislyge said:
And core for core should easily outperform the Cell.
Source?
 
Kahnvex said:
You've got some interesting tidbits in there, but that list is a little short sighted...

Even with the difficulty in programming don't you think the wealth of titles exclusive to Sony's camp will garner them more market share?

Keep in mind that GTA in and of itself is a console seller. If that doesn't move you allow me to introduce to you the Final Fantasy, Devil May Cry, Ratchet and Clank, Jak and Daxter, Dragon Warrior, Getaway, Gran Turismo, God of War, and Sly Cooper franchises. Those are just the ones I can think of off hand.

EA games will multiplatform every title they have, as will Sega with it's Sonic line of games.

If anything, I think what will happen is that you will see more startup titles, or new franchises gravitate towards the systems that are easier to program for, and we'll just have longer to wait between the Sony exclusive titles while they get their learning curve on.

Quoted for truth.

Platformers are a huge draw to a particular console. But I also want to point out. That the computer industry expects it to be 3-5 years before we see true utilization of multicored/threaded chips.

And to further clarify something about these chips lots of people don't get. There not as robust as say a P4 or a Athlon 64. It really takes some effort to get some performance out of any of those chips on those consoles.

Which is why I think that due to shear complexity of these new systems that the 360 will come out on top for market share. Simply due to the sheer wealth of games it will have available. And these big budget titles that cost in the millions and millions will be more hard pressed to be developed on the easiest system to release for then ever.

Simply put if it cost 5 million and 2 years to release for the 360 (next Big Title) it will cost 5.5 and 2 and a half to almsot 3 for PS3.
 
Torgo said:
EDIT: Look, I reread my post and yeah, it does seem pretty mean. Understand that I don't pull punches and I do tend to be a bit rough when I spot something wrong. I take video game history very seriously. It's from that angle that I'm coming from. Nothing personal, but I had to say something. Don't take personal offense. I'm only attacking the material presented.

This article is so full of crap I'm surprised that you haven't sold it to farmers as a new form of "Miracle Gro". Your research and history is just plain awful. It's really, really, really bad. No, seriously. It's bad. Really bad. Can I tell you again that it's bad? Get the point that it's bad?

It would seriously take me three hours and a post five times as long to tear this thing apart and show you exactly how you screw this post up. I really don't have the time nor the inclination to do so at this time. I'm sure others will do it for me and maybe I'll do it tomorrow when I'm bored out of my mind and need something to occupy my time.

Look, eblislyge, I give you an A for effort, but when you get so many facts so absolutely wrong, (especially the history which is the basis of your "pattern") you deserve the wrath of the forum that's about to be unleashed upon you.

I'm of the same opinion, but I do pull punches. I would basically say the exact same thing as the above but wrap it in friendlier terms.

Edit: And for the love of god, hitting enter is not a substitute for comprehensive paragraphs.
 
cliff's please...I'm not at work so I dont want to read that whole thing.
 
I remember when the PS2 launched people said the same thing about it being hard to develop on and how AA was considered impossible for the ps2 to do....programers learn pretty quickly, if that wasnt the case we would all be using windows 95 still and a math co-processor would be new and strange...
 
Flak Pyro said:
I remember when the PS2 launched people said the same thing about it being hard to develop on and how AA was considered impossible for the ps2 to do....programers learn pretty quickly, if that wasnt the case we would all be using windows 95 still and a math co-processor would be new and strange...


Playstation 2 Technical Specs:

CPU: 128-bit "Emotion Engine" (300MHz)
RAM: 32MB Rambus DRAM, 4MB Video RAM
Graphics: Dedicated graphics synthesizer connected to CPU via 64-bit 1.2GB/s bus
Colors: 16.7 million
Sprites: 18.75 million
Polygons: 66 million per second
Resolution: Variable from 256x224 to 1280x1024 pixels
Sound: 2MB, 48 voice audio with support for Dolby, AC3 and DTS

What's hard about it? Other then adding Dvd support all it really done was allow developers more headroom over the original Playstation.

PLAYSTATION 3 SPECIFICATIONS

CPU: Cell Processor PowerPC-base Core @3.2GHz
--1 VMX vector unit per core
--512KB L2 cache
--7 x SPE @3.2GHz
--7 x 128b 128 SIMD GPRs
--7 x 256KB SRAM for SPE
--*1 of 8 SPEs reserved for redundancy
--Total floating point performance: 218 gigaflops

GPU RSX @ 550MHz
--1.8 TFLOPS floating point Performance
--Full HD (up to 1080p) x 2 channels
--Multi-way programmable parallel Floating point shader pipelines
--Sound Dolby 5.1ch, DTS, LPCM, etc. (Cell-based processing)

MEMORY
256MB XDR Main RAM @3.2GHz
256MB GDDR3 VRAM @700MHz
System Bandwidth Main RAM-- 25.6GB/s
VRAM--22.4GB/s
RSX-- 20GB/s (write) + 15GB/s (read)
SB2.5GB/s (write) + 2.5GB/s (read)

Do you notice a difference? Pay particular attention to the number of cores on the main processor. Someones going to have to write some software to actually get this thing to perform.

However you will see a huge amount of games that only utilize the main core of the system.
 
The article has a lot of... well... things that are untrue.

Fact: 1 main core (PPE) inside the PS3's Cell is pretty much the same as each of the 3 PPE's in the X360's CPU

Fact: PPE is NOT easy to program for, for either system, because it's in order and lacks cache

Fact: Nintendo and MS are neck-in-neck on sales (within 1 or 2 mill) in this gen

Fact: MORE games will be multiplatform, NOT less, this gen, because of the exponentially rising dev costs. more customers = more profit

Fact: ALL consoles will get most of eachother's releases, with very few exclusives, according to the devs themselves

Fact: Sony PS2 = 300mhz RISC, Gamecube = 500mhz PPC, XBox = 700mhz x86(approximations). The power of the GC vs XBox were also neck-in-neck.

Fact: X360 is difficult to program for, but middleware has made it a bit easier. the same could happen for PS3

Fact: The 7 SPE's will ONLY be useful for graphics-related tasks. If nobody uses them, that just means less visual IQ

Fact: Neither the Cell or the Xenon's main cores are good for physics/AI/game code

Fact: The XBox 360 actually has 3 cores, not 2, and the PS3 has 1 core + 7 enabled SPE's

Fact: Nintendo WILL have less horsepower in numbers, but will use a much more efficient out-of-order G5-class PPC core

Fact: If all cores of the PS3 are put to use, it will kick the others' asses visually (and visually ONLY)

Fact: ALL consoles will look better towards the end of their lives, just as any gen.

Fact: BluRay is an advantage in storage space and movie capability, but NOT loading speed

Fact: Sony CAN tank if nobody buys the PS3, but we all know that's not gonna happen

Fact: If lots of people buy the PS3, the programmers, as much as they will absolutely HATE it, will learn how to use the SPE's

Fact: All 3 systems will likely provide you with games that you want to play, you can't go wrong with any of them

Finally, if you really like doomsday scenarios, this is a better read... (click here)
 
eblislyge said:
Playstation 2 Technical Specs:

CPU: 128-bit "Emotion Engine" (300MHz)
RAM: 32MB Rambus DRAM, 4MB Video RAM
Graphics: Dedicated graphics synthesizer connected to CPU via 64-bit 1.2GB/s bus
Colors: 16.7 million
Sprites: 18.75 million
Polygons: 66 million per second
Resolution: Variable from 256x224 to 1280x1024 pixels
Sound: 2MB, 48 voice audio with support for Dolby, AC3 and DTS

What's hard about it? Other then adding Dvd support all it really done was allow developers more headroom over the original Playstation.

The emotion engine had 1 main processing unit with 2 VPU's as well if i remember correctly, making it tricky to program for. The very limited 4mb of VRAM also made it hard for the developers to squeeze some decent textures.
 
The article has a lot of... well... things that are untrue.

Fact: 1 main core (PPE) inside the PS3's Cell is pretty much the same as each of the 3 PPE's in the X360's CPU

3 versus 1 so whats your point?

Fact: PPE is NOT easy to program for, for either system, because it's in order and lacks cache

But the fact is that the 360 is much easier.

Fact: Nintendo and MS are neck-in-neck on sales (within 1 or 2 mill) in this gen

Does not matter Microsoft is in the lead.

Fact: MORE games will be multiplatform, NOT less, this gen, because of the exponentially rising dev costs. more customers = more profit

That is incorrect Rising cost in development and the huge amount of difference between the systems and to market times will dictate developers pick a console.

Fact: ALL consoles will get most of eachother's releases, with very few exclusives, according to the devs themselves.

Not true either, Sony and microsoft need exclusives to get market share, what are you in snuggles and hugs land, they are having a war over market share and cant gain ground by being the same.

Fact: Sony PS2 = 300mhz RISC, Gamecube = 500mhz PPC, XBox = 700mhz x86(approximations). The power of the GC vs XBox were also neck-in-neck.

False the Xbox outperforms all three systems, Processor architecure as your pointing only made it easier for microsoft to gain ground on the others by making it easier for traditonal pc games to port over to xbox easily.

Fact: X360 is difficult to program for, but middleware has made it a bit easier. the same could happen for PS3

The xbox 360 had microsofts excellent developer tools on it's side, which was purposefully done by microsoft to make it a more attractive console to develope for.

Fact: The 7 SPE's will ONLY be useful for graphics-related tasks. If nobody uses them, that just means less visual IQ

Then that would mean that the system is incapeable of competing against the xbox 360 since you illustrated at the top of this post that its core is the same as the xbox 360 but it only has 1 while the xbox has 3.

Fact: Neither the Cell or the Xenon's main cores are good for physics/AI/game code

I have no idea why this is mentioned as it has no bearing on anything I wrote and isnt mentioned in my post.

Fact: The XBox 360 actually has 3 cores, not 2, and the PS3 has 1 core + 7 enabled SPE's

Yep, go on

Fact: Nintendo WILL have less horsepower in numbers, but will use a much more efficient out-of-order G5-class PPC core

The Revolution is only 2.5 times more powerful then the gamecube while the xbox 360 is estimated to be 40 times more powerful then previous consoles. Thats a huge difference.

Fact: If all cores of the PS3 are put to use, it will kick the others' asses visually (and visually ONLY)

Thats the whole point of the article is getting developers who can use all those cores and still make deadlines and turn a profit. Thanks for bringing that up.

Fact: ALL consoles will look better towards the end of their lives, just as any gen.

Again this was not mentioned in my post, but thanks for sharing.

Fact: BluRay is an advantage in storage space and movie capability, but NOT loading speed

Again this was not mentioned in my post but thanks for sharing.

Fact: Sony CAN tank if nobody buys the PS3, but we all know that's not gonna happen

Again this was not mentioned in my post but thanks for sharing. And your wrong again, Sony cant tank, there music business is slosing money, there electronics business is losing money, and there relying on there game division which is there only bread and butter. They currently stand to lose millions and millions over there root kit fiasco.

Fact: If lots of people buy the PS3, the programmers, as much as they will absolutely HATE it, will learn how to use the SPE's

False, if the system is to hard to program for then there wont be enough GOOD games available to attract buyers which will force even more developers to another console.

Fact: All 3 systems will likely provide you with games that you want to play, you can't go wrong with any of them

False, different gamers will be attracted to different systems for different reasons. Certain market segmeants will be happier with there purchase by buying a particular console.

Finally, if you really like doomsday scenarios, this is a better read... (click here)

Thanks for the link I like how the writer mentions the difficulties in programming for the PS3 ;)
 
The PS2 is difficult to develop for. The graphics processor (EE) needed parallelism in order to generate the best visuals, and developers had problems working with the two coprocessors, not to mention the lack of texture buffer.
 
BillLeeLee said:
The PS2 is difficult to develop for. The graphics processor (EE) needed parallelism in order to generate the best visuals, and developers had problems working with the two coprocessors, not to mention the lack of texture buffer.

So what your saying is that the PS2 is difficult to develop for Because of a main processor and two additional co processors?

I guess the PS3 is going to be a piece of cake compared to that.
 
Have you ever programmed for multiple threads or done any parallel programming on multiple cores? It's not easy.

As I understand it the Cell is not really multi-threaded though, but made up of SPEs that can be chained into a larger program. If that's the case, it still requires techniques akin to multi-threaded programming (tough).

And the PS2 was tough because it's hard to synchronize the activity of the emotion engine with the vector processing units.
 
That's my point exactly.

It's going to be very difficult to get the most out of the PS3 compared to what it takes to get the most out of the 360.

The 360 is three cores capeable of 2 threads each for a total of 6. But the threads are all getting equal processing power.

The PS3 has only one main core with 6 small cores -1 for system -1 for 5.1 sound if the developers uses that type of sound. But its smaller cores cant do nearly as much as the main.

So its going to take one hell of a micromanagement job of coding to pull that off on a PS3
 
:yawn:
People over dozens of message boards bitched that the PS2 was 'oh so very hard to code for' year ago. All this griping really amounted to nothing because developers still flocked to the PS2 because it was a money maker. The install base of the PS2 just dwarfed the other consoles so it was the obvious platform to make games on. The same thing will be true with the PS3, no matter what some guy on a message board says.
 
Yeh I agree, no matter how hard (within reason) it is to program for, if the demand is there, they will put the effort in.
 
Wow. just wow. It really does seem that the OP has no idea what he's talking about, it would have been alot more coherent if he had just posted "OMG!!!1 Teh360 rulez!!111 PS3 suxor!!111" :rolleyes:

Your post just plays the Intel/AMD numbers game, you look at the speed of the CPU and decided who is better without actually doing anything else. Torgo and Steve are so right on the mark about this.

I'm seeing this tossed around all across the internet as if it were hard, concrete fact. Never have I seen a source. So unless you spent the last couple of months coding for both the X360 and the PS3... source please.
John Carmack commented on the systems eariler, the PS3 (on paper atleast) was superior but the 360 has better dev tools making it easier to code for. He mentions that both systems are equally hard to code for but MS's tools makes it a bit easier and how this is something that Sony should improve on quickly.

I've also seen this echoed several times by un-named "devs" working with the PS3 kits.
 
I find it hard to believe that the XBox 360 "is estimated to be 40 times more powerful then [sic] previous consoles."Wasn't the Xbox basically an underpowered PC? If so, wouldn't that put it in the range of 5 to 10 times more powerful than the best gaming computers today? Hook me up with one of those $500 bad boys. I can save 80% of the cost for 500% more power!

By the way, "sic" means I didn't want to look dumb because you can't spell, eblislyge.
 
CrimandEvil said:
Wow. just wow. It really does seem that the OP has no idea what he's talking about, it would have been alot more coherent if he had just posted "OMG!!!1 Teh360 rulez!!111 PS3 suxor!!111" :rolleyes:

Your post just plays the Intel/AMD numbers game, you look at the speed of the CPU and decided who is better without actually doing anything else.

Then you come along with leetspeak and show your age?

I never posted anything about megahertz in my original post, never said PS3 sucks or hinted that it sucked. I said hard to program for. How does saying hey that system will be hard to code for translate to this system sucks and that other system rocks.

I made a Technical observation from information Ive gathered from the net and news and hardware forums and gaming forums and vintage gaming system sites.

I concluded that due to the difficulty in programming one system compared to the other that one system has an advantage and could take the user base lead from the market leader. Based upon previous market trends in the gaming industry.

If your a Rabid PS3 fan just save you and everyone else some time and post OP suxxors and can kiss my ps3 lovin ass cause im the roxxor and he sucks! and get out of the thread. I don't care what you think and am only interested in discussing this with people who can form complete sentences. I already know that the sun rises and sets in sony's rump and everything else sucks according to you.

If your a PS3 fan or interested party and can form an intelligent post based on facts and opinions please share them.
 
You should take it easy with the flaming there. His sentences are much more "complete" than yours.

To keep this relevant, your observations don't hold water. There are so many factors you simply aren't considering. Did any previous console that went under have an install base of 100 million worldwide? Sony would probably be able to hold the majority of the market share on !!!!!!s upgrading to the PS3 alone.

There are too many things to consider to be making such a bold statement at this time. With 2 out of the 3 next generation consoles yet to be released, NOBODY can predict what things will look like 1 or 2 years from now.
 
Xaeon said:
I find it hard to believe that the XBox 360 "is estimated to be 40 times more powerful then [sic] previous consoles."Wasn't the Xbox basically an underpowered PC? If so, wouldn't that put it in the range of 5 to 10 times more powerful than the best gaming computers today? Hook me up with one of those $500 bad boys. I can save 80% of the cost for 500% more power!

By the way, "sic" means I didn't want to look dumb because you can't spell, eblislyge.

Ive seen that estimate plasterd all over the place, I dont know how they reach it, but It seems to sum it up nicely.

A 20GB hard drive, high-def game support and a 500MHz ATI graphics processor: Glimpse the Xbox 360's system performance specifications as provided by Microsoft.

Custom IBM PowerPC-based CPU
• Three symmetrical cores running at 3.2 GHz each
• Two hardware threads per core; six hardware threads total
• VMX-128 vector unit per core; three total
• 128 VMX-128 registers per hardware thread
• 1 MB L2 cache

CPU Game Math Performance
• 9 billion dot product operations per second

Custom ATI Graphics Processor
• 500MHz processor
• 10 MB of embedded DRAM
• 48-way parallel floating-point dynamically scheduled shader pipelines
• Unified shader architecture

Polygon Performance
• 500 million triangles per second

Pixel Fill Rate
• 16 gigasamples per second fill rate using 4x MSAA

Shader Performance
• 48 billion shader operations per second

Memory
• 512 MB of GDDR3 RAM
• 700 MHz of DDR
• Unified memory architecture

Memory Bandwidth • 22.4 GB/s memory interface bus bandwidth
• 256 GB/s memory bandwidth to EDRAM
• 21.6 GB/s front-side bus

Overall System Floating-Point Performance
• 1 teraflop

Storage
• Detachable and upgradeable 20GB hard drive
• 12x dual-layer DVD-ROM
• Memory Unit support starting at 64 MB

I/O
• Support for up to four wireless game controllers
• Three USB 2.0 ports
• Two memory unit slots

• Built-in Ethernet port
• Wi-Fi ready: 802.11a, 802.11b and 802.11g
• Video camera ready

Digital Media Support
• Support for DVD-Video, DVD-ROM, DVD-R/RW, DVD+R/RW, CD-DA, CD-ROM, CD-R, CD-RW, WMA CD, MP3 CD, JPEG Photo CD
• Ability to stream media from portable music devices, digital cameras and Windows XP-based PCs
• Ability to rip music to the Xbox 360 hard drive • Custom playlists in every game
• Built-in Media Center Extender for Windows XP Media Center Edition 2005
• Interactive, full-screen 3-D visualizers

High-Definition Game Support
• All games supported at 16:9, 720p and 1080i, anti-aliasing
• Standard-definition and high-definition video output supported

Audio
• Multichannel surround sound output
• Supports 48KHz 16-bit audio
• 320 independent decompression channels
• 32-bit audio processing
• Over 256 audio channels

Versus:
Processor
* Type
* Intel Pentium III 733 MHz

* Instruction set
* X86-to-RISC

Memory / Storage
* RAM installed size
* 64 MB

* Cache size
* 128 KB

* HDD Capacity
* 8 GB

Video
* Video Output
* 256-bit 2D/3D graphics acceleration

* Supported Video
* NTSC S-Video Installed, Component video Installed, Composite video Installed

* Max resolution (external)
* 1920 x 1080

* Graphic Effects
* Shadows, Fog effects, Pixel Shaders, Vertex Shaders, Texture lighting, Bilinear filtering, Trilinear filtering

* Fill Rate
* 4000 million pixels/sec

Memory

* Max supported RAM
* 64 MB

* RAM technology
* DDR SDRAM

Audio

* Sound Output Mode


Now, if the xbox 360 had a game fully optimizied for it utilizing all 6 threads, versus the current ultimate gaming machine it prolly would appear 5-10 more powerful. Put another 5 years of age on a 360 and it might be a little different but not by much.

Pc's running any big bloated assed windows operating system with half assed drivers and running a game thats meant to work with tons of different hardware configurations cannot compete with either the Xbox 360 or PS3 which are current top of the line gaming platforms.

Even a aging plain old xbox gives standard gaming systems a run for there money when you compare graphics. You need to go read and learn a thing or two about dedicated hardware platforms.

Now better yet you show me a pc that can do graphically what a xbox 360 does for $400.00 dollars or less.
 
eblislyge said:
Then you come along with leetspeak and show your age?

---snip---
Uh, yeah. You really need to up your reading comprehension cause obviously you didn't understand anything in my post. Just to make sure lets check out the relevent parts:
it would have been alot more coherent if he had just posted "OMG!!!1 Teh360 rulez!!111 PS3 suxor!!111"
All that followed by an eye roll.
never said PS3 sucks or hinted that it sucked
Sure you are, your whole post is about how terribly hard it is to program for the PS3 that it will lead to Sony's downfall. If thats not saying "PS3 sucks" then I don't what is. If anyone here is holding the fan boy card it's clearly not me.
I made a Technical observation from information Ive gathered from the net and news and hardware forums and gaming forums and vintage gaming system sites.
Oh, really? So there are "technical" sites out there that said the 360 has a dual cored processor? Or that the PS3 has nine CPUs? It wouldn't be so bad if you prefaced your "article" with the golden "In my opinion" because without that the info in the post is just pure horse crap (and I'm being generous here).
 
eblislyge said:
I made a Technical observation from information Ive gathered from the net and news and hardware forums and gaming forums and vintage gaming system sites.

At least Crimand gave a specific source for his info.

40 times more powerful. Yeah, and I'm the king of Sweden. Give us a source.
 
I still don't believe it. I'm not much into reading reams of specs, but I'm pretty sure that top end gaming computers can at least meet the XBox 360 in performance. It may not look as good on PC for various reasons, but the pure power of the 360 is no match. This is just based on my opinion formed by my skewed view of the world.

Still, I think quality of games will win consumers. What do I care if a character model has 15 gazillion or 1500 gazillion polygons? Personally, I play games for fun. I watch movies for eye candy.
 
deathstar550 said:
At least Crimand gave a specific source for his info.

40 times more powerful. Yeah, and I'm the king of Sweden. Give us a source.
BTW it was linked on the [H]ard frontpage a few weeks back, it was to a story on Shacknews IIRC.
 
Xaeon said:
You should take it easy with the flaming there. His sentences are much more "complete" than yours.

To keep this relevant, your observations don't hold water. There are so many factors you simply aren't considering. Did any previous console that went under have an install base of 100 million worldwide? Sony would probably be able to hold the majority of the market share on !!!!!!s upgrading to the PS3 alone.

There are too many things to consider to be making such a bold statement at this time. With 2 out of the 3 next generation consoles yet to be released, NOBODY can predict what things will look like 1 or 2 years from now.

You do know the higest selling system of all time was the Nintendo Nes. You do know that if you had told Nintendo that one day Sega would launch a 16 bit system called the Genesis and actually eclipse them in market share for a while they would laugh there Ass off at you? You do know that Sony came along and eclipsed Nintendo in market share?

Did you know that Microsofts Xbox has outsold the Playstation 2 a couple times in the last few months.

Im not saying that sony's going to fall off the face of the Earth, But I do think they will lose a significant amount of market share. At least im giving reasons why I think it will happen.
 
Xaeon said:
I still don't believe it. I'm not much into reading reams of specs, but I'm pretty sure that top end gaming computers can at least meet the XBox 360 in performance. It may not look as good on PC for various reasons, but the pure power of the 360 is no match. This is just based on my opinion formed by my skewed view of the world.
Performance wise it can clearly meet some of the more, current, highend rigs out there for a fraction of the price (that is if you can actually get one) but in no way is it "40 times more powerful," some one is pulling that one out of thier ass.
Still, I think quality of games will win consumers. What do I care if a character model has 15 gazillion or 1500 gazillion polygons? Personally, I play games for fun. I watch movies for eye candy.
On of the main complains has been that theres no real "killer app" for the 360 yet. Honestly, MS should have had Halo 3 or similar ready to ship on launch day to show off the capabilities of the 360 (hell, I'm not even a fan of Halo).
 
eblislyge said:
You do know the higest selling system of all time was the Nintendo Nes. You do know that if you had told Nintendo that one day Sega would launch a 16 bit system called the Genesis and actually eclipse them in market share for a while they would laugh there Ass off at you? You do know that Sony came along and eclipsed Nintendo in market share?

For Nintendo, it was pretty easy to have a huge majority of the market share with no competition. Sony has dominated the market for 2 generations, fighting off stiff competion all the way. They have a huge, dedicated fan base. Like it or not, Sony will sell a freakin' TON of PS3 consoles, even if it's the biggest piece of shit on the planet. I doubt even Microsoft believes they have a chance of utterly destroying Sony with the XBox 360 as you predicted with numbers seemingly from deep in your ass.
 
Microsoft will save Halo 3 for the launch of PS3 and then throw in a price cut. A previous poster linked an article that expects that and it sounds like a good tactic.

And of course theres no killer app for the Xbox360. They rushed everything to meet a deadline to get some marketshare before Sony launches. Youll be seeing some of there best titles start appearing around PS3 and revolution launch times. Just to try and still there thunder.
 
eblislyge said:
Did you know that Microsofts Xbox has outsold the Playstation 2 a couple times in the last few months.
Which is why it's a terrible flop in the Asia market, particularly in Japan. You know, guys that make a good majority of games? Currently the Xbox has sold less then half a million units there, this is why it was a huge deal when MS signed up several japanese devs for the 360.
eblislyge said:
And of course there's no killer app for the Xbox360, they rushed everything to meet a deadline to get some market share before Sony's launch. You'll see some of their best titles starting to appear around the PS3 and Revolution launch just to try and steal their thunder.
Which is probably why we're selling alot of DOAs, artifical shortages and console failures, all just to beat Sony and possibly gain some market share. On the up side you're right, by the time that Sony and Nintendo launch their respective consoles MS will finally have their killer app.... a year after their console was launched.

I guess it's a good thing that Nintendo is known for having solid launch titles, if a 12 year old kid (here by known as the "OP") can see this happening then I'm pretty sure Sony is getting their launch titles polished to meet the 360 head on (too bad MSG4 won't be one of them).

Oh, I had to correct the spelling mistakes. I'm too tired to try and make sense out of it.
 
Xaeon said:
For Nintendo, it was pretty easy to have a huge majority of the market share with no competition. Sony has dominated the market for 2 generations, fighting off stiff competion all the way. They have a huge, dedicated fan base. Like it or not, Sony will sell a freakin' TON of PS3 consoles, even if it's the biggest piece of shit on the planet. I doubt even Microsoft believes they have a chance of utterly destroying Sony with the XBox 360 as you predicted with numbers seemingly from deep in your ass.

And I pull stuff outta my ass?

Nintendo had exclusive third party publishing deals. Thats why the SEga Master System didnt get market share. There werent any games for it. Things changed with Genesis, and Sega actually took a lead. But they messed it all up.

Sony got the lead do to some decent management, good deals for developers and an easy system to program for. They were competing initially against a 16 bit super Nintendo which the original Playstation easily surpassed. And a Sega saturn which was duel processors and hard to program for. Not to mention rushed to market.

Then Nintendo released the 64 bit Nintendo, but they had already lost market share and there damn cartridges made releasing large rom consuming titles a business failure waiting to happen. Developers could'nt expect to sell $70.00 cartridges to kids.

Sony didnt get the lead cause they were just Gods or something they were in the right place at the right time with the right hardware.

Different story this time around is all im saying.
 
sony will dominate the market again
hell, the ps3 hype alone is going to sell 10's of millions

the ps2 didnt sell over 5 times the competition for any ol' reason
 
CrimandEvil said:
Which is why it's a terrible flop in the Asia market, particularly in Japan. You know, guys that make a good majority of games? Currently the Xbox has sold less then half a million units there, this is why it was a huge deal when MS signed up several japanese devs for the 360.


The Japanese are fiercly brand loyal, you know what a pain in the ass it was for Sony to get market share from Nintendo?

Also keep in mind that Japanses gamers and american gamers are two seperate beasts. The Japanese gamers top games are Rpgs and American FPS. It was a culture shock for Microsoft with the launch of the original Xbox.

Something else that some people didnt think about. The average Japanese is much smaller then the average American. Xbox controllers are big enough to land jets on most Japanese palyers couldnt hold the damn things correctly without alot of discomfort.

Maybe Microsoft has learnt something this time around, they say they have but who knows.
 
eblislyge said:
My guess two years from now will see the Xbox 360 with 65% of the market sony with 25% and Nintendo with %10.

My guess is two years from now we will see the XBox 360 with 80% market share, PS3 with 90% market share, and Nintendo with 85% market share. Furthermore, all consoles will have over 100% market penetration. That's right, 2 consoles per home! Nobody can prove me wrong because it hasn't happened yet, and when I am inevitably ass-whooped by fact, nobody will remember! On the off chance my random guessing is correct, I can come back and rub it in everyone's face!

Seriously though, I'm not a PS fan. I tolerate my brother's PS2 because I can play NHL on it. I would LOVE to see the next Sony product fall flat on it's face. But to say it will makes me a definite idiot. It would be like saying Nintendo is going to go the way of SEGA.... Oops, I think I just cracked open a whole new can of worms.
 
Ugh, I Couldn't find an exact quote, but from what I could garner the NES sold about 40 million units. The PS1 and PS2 have both sold over 100 million. The NES is not the best selling system of all time.

The X-box is not 3x as powerful as a Gamecube. In fact, a number of Gamecube games look better than the X-box releases of the same title. In this generation the graphical capabilities of all three consoles are very, very close. The X-box and GC may have slight leads, but for many titles the PS2 release looks just as good, especially on your average 20-27" analog TV that I'd wager 80% or so of console gamers use.

Games sell systems more than specs... people will buy the system that plays the games they want. This round and the previous Sony had the titles that the most people wanted. The X-Box appealed mainly to the PC gamer crowd with some great FPS games, but had a laughably small library of platformers, RPGs, and unique odd-ball games. Plus, the only breakout exclusives the X-box had were Halo and Halo2. I don't doubt that they will try to release Halo3 against the PS3/Rev launch, just as Sony released Final Fantasy VIII against the Dreamcast release. We'll see if that gets them anywhere, but FPS games appeal to a very limited portion of the gaming market.

The 360 and PS3 are equally difficult to program for, both require code designed for massively parallel processors.

Personally though, I wouldn't want to develop for a system with duel cores. I mean, it is hard enough to get a game working right even without a civil war constantly breaking out inside of your system....

EDIT:

Just to add, your average console buyer isn't your average [H] member. They don't understand, or particularly want to understand, the differences in microprocessor architecture nor the other tech specs. They will buy on games, hype, and marketing. Whether it is warrented or not, Sony has by far the best marketing engine of any of the 3 major players right now. Once the Sony hype machine kicks into full gear it will be impossible not to hear a barrage of how superior the PS3 is to everything else on the market, regardless if it actually is.

Sony has already made significant inroads towards getting people to refer to all consoles as 'Playstations' similar to how many people used to refer to any console as a 'Nintendo' (talking the unwashed masses of the general public here). My best friend is the GM of a video game store, and he has people come in every day asking for the 'X-box playstation' the 'Microsoft playstation' or the 'Nintendo Playstation'.
 
eblislyge said:
The Japanese are fiercly brand loyal, you know what a pain in the ass it was for Sony to get market share from Nintendo?
It doesn't help when the system in question (Xbox) offended their sense of aesthetic (too damn large).
Also keep in mind that Japanses gamers and american gamers are two seperate beasts. The Japanese gamers top games are Rpgs and American FPS. It was a culture shock for Microsoft with the launch of the original Xbox.
RPGs yes, FPS no, thats Korea and if that was a "culture shock" for MS then they shouldn't have really gotten into the console business seeing as how the most popular PC games (something they should know alittle about) are FPS.
Something else that some people didnt think about. The average Japanese is much smaller then the average American. Xbox controllers are big enough to land jets on most Japanese palyers couldnt hold the damn things correctly without alot of discomfort.
Which is how we got our "controller S." Thank the gods for those tiny japanese gamers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top