Physical Wiring -- old work

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mikeblas

[H]ard|DCer of the Month - May 2006
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I've been considering a structured wiring project in my home. I have no worries about the electrical work; I'm a whiz with the stuff.

I'm troubled with fishing and pulling wires, though. I'd like to get wired network from upstairs to downstairs, and I can't find a good shaft or common wall where I can pull the cable. I'm also troubled with pulling a large number of cables into my closet; I'm worried that drilling the necessary holes will weaken the joists.

I've found a few books on wiring, but they've got nothing to do with physical installation. (Aside from the simple stuff, like placing an old work box.) Can anyone recommend such a book or any other references?
 
No suggestions?

I'm also finding surprisingly little about structured wiring products.
 
For the basics start with a Home Depot wiring book.

I've been in a networking job for 5 years but I am still a noob when it comes to cabling. I wired my house a few months ago. Tho' my project turned out to be overkill. Ran fiber in between floors instead of running 24 cat5e's from upstairs to downstairs. But as far as the basics I learned that from the HD books and this site. http://www.swhowto.com/index.htm
 
What size/style floor joists would you be drilling through and how many cat5e cables would you need to pull in?
 
I haven't been under the house yet. (It's a new house that I'm buying). My first crack at the crawl space will be on Monday, during the buyer's inspection.

Houses in the northwest usually don't have basements, and I might have no access to the floor joists. I might have access for some rooms and not others. If this case, how do I pull wires?

The house was built in 1976, and has not much wiring. For each access point, I want two cat6 runs, an RG59 run, and a cat5 run for two phone lines. There are five bedrooms, a craft room in the laundry room, too.

There's four or five entertainment points in the house where I'd like to have similar runs.

I haven't come up with a plan for audio wiring yet. There's at least one point in the house where I'd like to hang a screen without any components visible, so I'll need to pull HDMI and audio lines to that location, then get an IR repeater signal back.
 
Consider the attic as a way to run wires. Find a non-support wall to run wires to a central location. You can drill a few 1/2 inch holes all in a line if you are worried about load-bearing issues. The usual rule is to never drill holes bigger than the width of the stud - 2" (so we can let 1 inch on each side) and always drill on the center.
 
Why not run just 1 line to a switch in the closet and then sprout off of that?

The only issue with a switch in the closet is that you need to provide power. I ran 2 cat5 lines through my closets from the basement to the second floor closet, and then from there I ran drops in the attic to each room. (I have an 8 port switch in the second floor closet) I also created a power extension (low voltage 9v) for the switch power and ran that with the 2 network cables.

How many PC's do have?
 
Wireless provides unacceptably poor reliability and performance. It's also not capable of doing video or audio -- particularly with multiple streams at the same time.

Meanwhile, I've found the twacomm.com site, which sells plenty of equipment and tools. The best part is they have data sheets on almost everything they sell. Amazingly, the Lutron site (for example) has nearly no technical documentation on their products.

Are there any resellers ya'll would recommend?

Xilikon said:
Consider the attic as a way to run wires.
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There's no attic, either. There's some loft space over the garage, but that obviously doesn't provide access to most of the house -- particularly, the downstairs bedrooms.

moetop said:
Why not run just 1 line to a switch in the closet and then sprout off of that?
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That's essentially the plan. The service closet will be where cable and phone enter the house. In that closet, I'll have a switch, power (no problem, since it's also where the breaker box is), and a structured wiring panel. I can split the cable, bridge the phone lines, and so on, all from one location. The Cat6 runs will all start there from the switch. I'll have some floor space (for a tower PC) and can run my firewall and domain controller there.

moetop said:
How many PC's do have?
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I'll have five to seven in my office. My wife has one in her office. We each have a laptop. There will eventually be six televisions: my office, master bedroom, game room, kitchen, dining room, living room. There will often be TiVos or HTPCs at each television. The master suite and game room will have surround sound. The kitchen is the spot where the TV components need to be out of sight.
 
Xilikon said:
You can drill a few 1/2 inch holes all in a line if you are worried about load-bearing issues. The usual rule is to never drill holes bigger than the width of the stud - 2" (so we can let 1 inch on each side) and always drill on the center.
Click to expand...
The spot I'm worried about is under the wiring closet. This will have a big count:

12 - Cat6 data
8 - Cat5 phone
8 - RG59 video

plus whatever I might do for wiring the video and control up to the kitchen. It'll have even more, if I consider a whole home lighting control system.

The closet will insert into the wall between a couple of studs, and like a breaker box, provide access on the top and bottom for wire entry. This means that all those cable bundles will go into the floor.

Maybe that's not a joist -- is the flat board inside a wall along the floor a "footer"?
 
Where in the Northwest? Im in the Seattle area. If you need to borrow a flexible drill bit let me know.
 
:D My recomendation is to just run them across the floor or maybee tie them up to the light fixtures.

lol acually I think the guy that mentioned finding a central wall that is nonload bearing had the right idea.
 
mikeblas said:
The spot I'm worried about is under the wiring closet. This will have a big count:

12 - Cat6 data
8 - Cat5 phone
8 - RG59 video

plus whatever I might do for wiring the video and control up to the kitchen. It'll have even more, if I consider a whole home lighting control system.

The closet will insert into the wall between a couple of studs, and like a breaker box, provide access on the top and bottom for wire entry. This means that all those cable bundles will go into the floor.

Maybe that's not a joist -- is the flat board inside a wall along the floor a "footer"?
Click to expand...

is there any particular reason you are not going to use RG6 Quad-Shielded wiring for your video? That'd be a great way to future proof yourself if you move to digital cable , and you also can save yourself from possible interference issues due to a variety of causes.

the site that unix_foo posted has some good information, and is a great read.
 
cleric_retribution said:
the site that unix_foo posted has some good information, and is a great read.
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It's an interesting site, but as I said before I wasn't impressed by the guy's physical setup. Am I missing a section, or is it that the site doesn't discuss physical wiring at all? I don't see anything about pulling wires, solving access problems, and so on.
unix_foo said:
Where in the Northwest? Im in the Seattle area. If you need to borrow a flexible drill bit let me know.
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The house is on Mercer Island. Thanks, but I have a 24-inch (er, or 36 inch?) bit already.
 
I can't; I've soaked everything into the damned house!
 
Do not run RG59!

Go with RG6 or Quad Shield RG6.

RG59 won't work well for any of the new modern digital services. And it leaks signal far more than RG6.
 
Thanks for the tips about RG6; I thought it was substantially more expensive than RG59, but it turns out it's very competitive.
 
I've done many cabling jobs in my young career, Here is a few tips i've learned that might help out a bit, First thing is get a nice big long round stick of some kind, i.e broom wand or something, its great for taping the wire to and throwing across rooms and such, Also get a nice wire snake that you can use to fish threw the walls. They come in real handy when you are trying to pull wire threw insulation and such. Also when you start pulling the wires, label your drops so you know what is what when you throw it all together in a rack. If you have any more questions, let me know i am sure i can lend a hand. It seems like it can be a pain, but actually it is a lot of fun (well i think it is). And if you think a house is band, try wiring a 100 year old church for a network and phone, now that was fun :p
 
I have a snake; it's pretty small (20 feet, IIRC) but it is indeed very handy.

What I've meant this thread to be about is overcoming the challenges in wiring an older structure, or a structure with limited access to the "other side" of the walls. Labeling cable ends and using a snake aren't new techniques for me.

Figuring out how to get a wire through a concrete wall, or to a room that isn't over the crawlspace are problems, though. I'd like to learn what techniques are easy (enough), maintainable, safe, and up to code.
 
Another good idea is to build a fake wall in the CWP then pass the wires behing without needing to drill thru the load-bearing walls.
 
mikeblas said:
I have a snake; it's pretty small (20 feet, IIRC) but it is indeed very handy.

What I've meant this thread to be about is overcoming the challenges in wiring an older structure, or a structure with limited access to the "other side" of the walls. Labeling cable ends and using a snake aren't new techniques for me.

Figuring out how to get a wire through a concrete wall, or to a room that isn't over the crawlspace are problems, though. I'd like to learn what techniques are easy (enough), maintainable, safe, and up to code.
Click to expand...

That all comes with doing it, there is no real answer because each job will be a little different. You will find once you start that it will not be as hard as you think
 
That is the main reason you aren't finding info about physical access and obstacles, etc. Each house and structure is so unique that it would be impossible to write something that would work all the time. You may have no choice but to take drywall out so you can get to certain spots and then patch and paint.

My suggestion is to make sure you buy a good patch panel for your central point too. Especially given the number of pulls you are doing.
 
FalseGod said:
Each house and structure is so unique that it would be impossible to write something that would work all the time. You may have no choice but to take drywall out so you can get to certain spots and then patch and paint.
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I'm surprised to read such narrow thinking on the forums here.

While home styles are diverse, construction techniques aren't innumerably unique. A useful book or reference -- all I'm looking for, really -- would discuss the different possible techniques for routing and hiding wiring in old work projects. Start simple: pulling wires through joists, identifying load bearing walls, finding shafts and beams. Then get more advanced: drilling blind holes, getting through mortar work, brickwork, and concrete, and so on.

A summary of techniques in such a reference might end with discussing when the most invasive (and least maintainable, or pleasing) techniques are appropriate.

Cataloging techniques for a situational task can be daunting, and it's sometimes hard to feel that such a work is complete. But it's by no means impossible to make a useful body of work in such an effort.
 
Another trick electricians use:

Pull the baseboard molding off, cut out some of the drywall, lay in wire, reattach baseboard...
 
I've been thinking about the baseboard trick. I'm afraid it won't work too well because the utility closet is on the opposite side of the hallway from the bedrooms. (And it won't get me very far when going upstairs.)
 
You probably won't find a book/article for that will have what you want. Most of it is stuff you just know, sort of a learn by doing kind of thing.
 
Raceway has the same problem as the baseboard trick -- crossing the hallway is pretty messy.
 
mikeblas said:
I'm surprised to read such narrow thinking on the forums here.

While home styles are diverse, construction techniques aren't innumerably unique. A useful book or reference -- all I'm looking for, really -- would discuss the different possible techniques for routing and hiding wiring in old work projects. Start simple: pulling wires through joists, identifying load bearing walls, finding shafts and beams. Then get more advanced: drilling blind holes, getting through mortar work, brickwork, and concrete, and so on.

A summary of techniques in such a reference might end with discussing when the most invasive (and least maintainable, or pleasing) techniques are appropriate.

Cataloging techniques for a situational task can be daunting, and it's sometimes hard to feel that such a work is complete. But it's by no means impossible to make a useful body of work in such an effort.
Click to expand...

I say this because I looked for this information before wiring my home as well. In the end I had to just suck it up and figure it out myself because I couldn't find info on that anywhere.
 
dont' run RG59. Run RG6. Higher bandwtih.

Have you looked into code for your area and what cable you have to run ie. CMR, CMG or other?

And personally i would run some solid copper core 75ohm cable for sending video around the house (just incase). Maybe a few RGB pairs? and some shielded audio cables to the rooms for audio distribution.
 
It depends on the application. Mercer Island doesn't have many exceptions to the NEC -- and none that I found, in fact, for low-voltage or signal wiring. As far as I know, I just need CATV for coax and CL2 or CL3 for everything else.

I haven't figured out what to use for wiring that goes outside and inside again.

Unfortunately, we might not end up with the house -- we found some pretty substantial problems during the buyer's inspection, so we'll see ... and even if we do end up with the property, there's going to be a couple projects that will have to take priority over the wirin'.
 
Smurf tube might not pass code for certain runs. Look into Carlon's line of flexible raceways link. I ordered 1.5" riser-guard from Grainger and ran 2 tubes from the attic above the second floor to the basement. That and a little green-line pull string should make upgrades easy.
 
I've done my fair share of wiring in old construction over the years. It's not easy. You really never know what is behind the wall. It's tough to say what you might run into. Having fish tapes, long drill bits, etc are a must.
 
e_lectro said:
Smurf tube might not pass code for certain runs. Look into Carlon's line of flexible raceways link.
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By my read, ENT is fine for any in-wall use in a single family dwelling. What code is it you're thinking of?

Smurf tube is one of Carlon's flexible raceway products, and is specifically listed right on the page you linked to. I'm having a hard time understanding what it is you wanted to convey with your reply.
 
What a project this house has been!

I've pulled about 1.5 miles of wire over the last year. I've got Cat6, phone, and coax in each room downstairs, and I've done a ton of high-voltage wiring, too. I don't have a work log, but you can find pictures of the remodel on my Picasa albums.

Because of the extent of the other work we're doing (and planning), I've ended up dropping the sheet rock in most places. Once that's done, the wiring is mostly a snap ... until ducting gets in the way.
 
valve1138 said:
Do not run RG59!

Go with RG6 or Quad Shield RG6.

RG59 won't work well for any of the new modern digital services. And it leaks signal far more than RG6.
Click to expand...
RG6Q all the way! It's not much more that RG59, but is definitely worth it.
 
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