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Phononic CPU Cooler on Indiegogo

If that's a Peltier-like solution then it might really work properly just by keeping the core cool so it won't increase the power consumption with temps growing.
 
Diverge said:
My guess is it's some kind of Peltier cooler
Click to expand...
My guess is you're exactly right. From what I can discern through the marketing speak is that the heatsink is divided into two with a TEC (Peltier) sandwiched in between. One half of the cooler sits on top of the CPU with the TEC's cold side on top of that. The hot side is cooled by the other half of the cooler. The TEC is only active when the CPU is under load.

It's kind of an interesting approach, but I'm skeptical that it will perform any better than a conventional cooler of the same size. It's not the first time Peltier elements have been commercialized for use in CPU cooling - CoolIT used TECs to chill a sealed watercooling loop in some of their coolers 7-8 years ago. TECs have a rather low coefficient of performance compared to compressors (i.e., they generate more extra heat relative to how much heat they can pump), so in general the gain with TECs is not great unless you have a lot of surface area to dissipate the heat through (i.e., multiple/large radiators).

It's notable the 80mm fan they're using has maximum speed of 4500 RPM. That definitely will not be quiet if it ever has to run anywhere close to that.
 
Am I being narrow minded here? I can't read through half of that bullshit before rejecting it - not even considering the product, just being completely put off by the exaggerated use of buzzwords..
 
eggDK said:
Am I being narrow minded here? I can't read through half of that bullshit before rejecting it - not even considering the product, just being completely put off by the exaggerated use of buzzwords..
Click to expand...
Nope, I felt exactly the same way reading it. I was still curious if there was anything to it, though. I'm not sure who they're trying to appeal to, exactly - less technical people won't be interested in a product like this, and technical people are put off by all the marketing BS and lack of detail as to what it actually is/how it works.
 
Yeah, looks to be a run-of-the-mill Peltier module.

I won't buy into anything until they list performance numbers at a sample of W-in - Namely, 45W, 65W, 90W, and 140W. Then I'll take a look. Without numbers, it's likely an extra 90-250W space heater in the case.
 
So no one sees the obvious scam here ? It's selling variable fan rate as a new thing, heatpipes are suddenly solid-state heatpumps and fans cut off fingers. Oh yes, and it's much more efficient at cooling thanks to it's 80mm fan with 4500rpm, than a 240mm AIO or high-end Noctua heatsink. So it's basically something completely revolutionary while looking exactly like a China-made cooler. It must be the potentiometer fan-speed controller than that somehow solves the massive cooling capacity.

This might be it's next-gen model !
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/PC-C...ipes-Heatsink-For-Socket-AM2/32332589527.html
 
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I think we all see the scam, but can we do anything about it?

I would think we could report to Indiegogo but it might not be worth the effort considering how vaguely worded their descriptions are.... we'd be assuming too much, without extra details
 
Yeah, I would want to see extra details. They're being too vague for anyone to tell if they're actually doing anything revolutionary.

If it's any help, this isn't their first product, according to their website. They've worked on fridges before this.

I have messaged them asking for comparison with actual CPU cooler models. I'll keep you guys updated on their response
 
Nothing revolutionary going on there. Just a lot of marketing mumbo jumbo, and another fail product at an overly inflated price.

From the vague info available it's a peltier/heatpipe hybrid cooler. Which has already been proven to be a failure in comparison to standard heatpipe design.
While the idea sounds nice, the practical implementation isn’t. To power hungry, still bound to fans, possible condensation, …

I still remember the Cooler Master V10 “monster” and how big of a fail that thing was.
 
There is some logic to it though, but this has been done before, though not as efficiently.

A peltier is inherently inefficient. At optimal Vin a peltier can move a lot of heat, by generating a lot more. Something in the order of 1.5 to 2x the original heat load. Aka a peltier moving 100w of heat will generate between 50 and 120w of heat, making the total heat load around 150 to 200w.

Peltier elements can fail, and when they do, they become very good insulators, so putting the cold plate directly on the IHS of the cup is a recipe for eventual disaster. Having it cool the first stage hsf hot plate will rectify this, as most heat generated is cooled by the first stage.

A cold object readily absorbs more heat. And a hot object readily rejects more heat. Coupled with the fact that the hot side of the peltier is rated typically around 95c max operating temperature, this lets the stage 1 cold plate absorb more heat, and dumps the load to the stage 2 radiator which is thermally isolated from the cpu. A 100c radiator will radiate more heat than a 50c radiator, even if the heat load is the same, as temperature (not heat, both are very different concepts) is the limiting factor in convective and conductive heat transfer to air,

But this will likely be a 60w module. The stage 1 heat sink will likely have 100w of cooling power at the usual 40c delta between air and cpu temp. Add on 60w for the peltier, and that delta decreases, at the expense of much hotter exit air temperature and power consumption.

This really isn't a great solution, but it will work, just not efficiently nor quietly.
 
I saw this posted by someone from Phononic on reddit:

Hi, I actually work at Phononic, great to see us getting discussed here! Wanted to address some of the points made:

Our design allows the TEC's to work in parallel with the heat sink and fan, so the devices provide additional cooling capability to assist the heatpipes and fin stack and do not act as a thermal transfer bottleneck. This allows us to operate the TECs at a higher efficiency point on the COP curve, under the highest load and temp conditions on our test rig, the TECs pull a max of 60W and provide an extra 10-15 degrees of cooling.
In addition, the controller that accompanies the cooler activates the TECs only when needed under high CPU load conditions, so the average power draw is much lower and there is no risk of condensation when the CPU is idle.
The plot on the indiegogo site is REAL data, not marketing fluff - we matched and slightly beat the OEM water cooler that came with our test workstation, which is a Core i7 4790K overclocked to 4.5GHz (cant publish brand of workstation at this time). We are putting together a more detailed comparison that shows our cooling performance compared to recognizable after-market air and liquid coolers. Stay tuned - I'll post a link here as it becomes available.
(Edit: formatting)
Click to expand...
 
I wouldn't mind paying a premium price for a well built peltier module except that their own page specs it with terrible fan specs.
If this cooler is so efficient why should I tolerate 48.6 dB-A?!
 
So that 60W peltier is effectively going to be taking 30W of thermal load away from the 'passive' heatsink, and adding 90W (30W transfer + 60W peltier power) to the 'active' heatsink. If the active heatsink can handle 90W of dissipation, then there' a good chance the heatsink would perform better with the peltier element removed entirely and both heatsinks connected directly to the base.

Then there's still that 80mm 4500RPM screamer, and that extra 60W of heat dumped into the case.
 
I'd be amazed if this heatsink can even handle 90W while being quiet. Considering 60W is added, 120-140W needs to be dissipated while running gaming scenarios on a non-overclocked K-series Intel chip. I don't see this tiny heatsink being able to absorb it and the 80mm fan won't be able to dissipate it without going full-bore.
 
I bit the early special bullet when this launched - knowing well that I was probably throwing my money away. However - as you all expected noise was a major concern, apparently I lucked out because they are refunding my money and shipping me the unit.

Dear Supporters:

As a follow-up to our update earlier this week, our engineering team has been hard at work conducting performance characterization on the Hex 1.0 CPU cooler. Our key design goals for the HEX 1.0 is to deliver best-in-class thermal and acoustic performance in a small form factor. In an effort to achieve our targeted performance levels, the HEX 1.0 fan was required to run at higher rpms which elevated the acoustic (noise) levels above acceptable levels. Although we achieved our thermal performance goals, the acoustic performance does not meet our expectations for full production release.

Here is what we have decided to do going forward:

1. Offer all of our valued Indiegogo supporters a FREE HEX 1.0 pre-production (Beta) CPU cooler. The free version will be a fully functional system consistent with what we were intending to ship for production only these units will come from our Beta manufacturing lot. We expect to be able to ship these to you in November (we will even pick up the shipping and handling charges).

2. We will extend an offer through Indiegogo for a FULL REFUND of your campaign contribution (details below on how to request a refund).

3. We will not move into full production with the current version of the HEX 1.0.

4. We are starting immediate development on a HEX 2.0 CPU Cooler, building on all that we have learned from the HEX 1.0 and making design modifications to increase the overall performance while reducing the fan noise.

5. We are planning on releasing the HEX 2.0 for full production in Q2 of next year. At that time we will offer our current Indiegogo supporters (you) a new HEX 2.0 at a heavily discounted price.


Once you receive the Free HEX 1.0, we would welcome your suggestions and feedback on the performance of the unit, your thoughts on the packaging, ease of installation and anything else you would like to share. We will take your inputs into consideration as we develop the HEX 2.0.

Refund Process:
The easiest and quickest way to process your refund is to request it directly from Indiegogo.com before the campaign ends on October 18th at 11:00pm PST. Here are some easy steps to follow:
· Send Indiegogo your refund request using this online form (example attached): https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/requests/new?ticket_form_id=45336

· Include our campaign link in your request: https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/phononic-cpu-cooler-for-high-performance-computing

· Link for more refund information: https://support.indiegogo.com/hc/en-us/articles/526876


If for some reason you are unable to request your refund via Indiegogo, don’t worry, we will reach out to you immediately after the campaign closes to arrange for a full refund directly from Phononic.

Again, we truly appreciate your interest in Phononic and your support of the HEX 1.0 CPU Cooler. We look forward to receiving your feedback after you receive your Beta unit. If you have any questions or concerns, you can reach out to me directly at [I'm blanking this out]


Best Regards,

Ted Donnelly
Director, IT Cooling
Phononic
Click to expand...
 
No surprise it didn't work as expected, many saw this coming a mile away. Still nice of them to offer the prototype coolers.
 
Should they not halt their Indiegogo campaign then?

There is a reason 80mm is a thing of the past for high end CPU coolers.
 
while this product is ditzy, TEC absolutely could make a comeback, because common intel CPUs are getting lower and lower power, which leaves room for the waste heat of the TEC. there are a lot of pointless water cooling products sold now, so I don't see why TEC can't find a niche too
 
What's the advantage of using a TEC on more energy-efficient components ? Since a TEC compensates with added cost, higher power usage and more heat just to trade for a cooler core (which isn't nescessary anymore), what's there to gain ?
 
IF you can create a very small area TEC of sufficient power to sink the entire TDP of a CPU, then it can be more effective at removing heat from the very small die-area CPUs that are becoming more common (no good having heatpipes that aren't actually touching the die, and the IHS is a thin copper sheet that can only conduct so much energy). That's a very tall order though, as most TECs increase power by increasing surface area, you'd need a different-shaped TEC for every die design, and you're doubling the amount of heat you need to remove for very little benefit.
 
Something else for those who may be interested is that a TEC is capable (with proper design of running below ambient temperatures. No air or liquid cooler is capable of that (regardless of what your BIOS reports as temperatures) without either a TEC, LN2 or compressor (refrigerator).

With the direction that CPUs have been heading since Sandy Bridge, I see no value to extreme cooling (including liquid) for the majority of users for cooling Intel CPUs, other than an AIO liquid cooler can fit where other stuff may not.

GPUs may even be heading that direction, of lower power draw and lower heat production.
 
On the other hand, subambient cooling is more of a liability than a benefit for general use. If you do not have proper condensation control, you are liable to destroy the motherboard and/or CPU by shorting a power pin to ground.
 
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