PC Tripping Breaker at Startup

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Xonim

[H]ard|Gawd
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Jul 14, 2011
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Been having some weird issues with my circuit breaker tripping at startup. Have a month and a half left on our home warranty, so I've got an electrician coming out tomorrow, but I wanted to run this by someone first and see if the computers themselves could be the problem. It all worked fine for about 6 months, and then all of the sudden we started having problems.

I have two computers connected in one room -- both using Corsair HX650 power supplies, Asus P8Z68-V/Gen3 boards, and i5-2500k's. One has an AMD 6950 and the other an Nvidia 560ti 448 core. Each has an SSD and 1-2 mechanical drives.

The problem I've been having is that the breaker for that room trips either when powering EITHER of them up or bringing them out of sleep -- it has happened with both when the other computer is off. This has happened in 2 different rooms = 2 different breakers (of the same type though) They're 20 amp breakers, which I think should be sufficient, and I know nothing about them beyond that. Once they're started up, they seem to work fine. I've never had it trip after they're up and running.

Is there any way to find out what the initial power draw would be at startup? I know amps = volts / watts, and by that logic, if it pulls the full 650w (does it? or more?) that's only 5.91 amps per box on a 110 outlet.

The only other things plugged in either room is 2 Asus VW246H monitors, 2 sets of Creative Gigaworks T20 speakers, and a 32" Samsung LED tv. Any insight is appreciated, thanks!
 
There's no way those setups will approach 650 watts. Sure, the CPU and GPU won't be in their idle state, but they won't be under full load either.

Given ~50 watts for peripherals, startup wattage on the CPUs might be 40-50 watts each (max full load is something like 80 watts stock), GPUs might use 100 watts or less. You're looking at ~200 watts from the power supply during startup. Accounting for power supply efficiency, that's ~250 watts each computer max. So 500 watts per computer, plus the monitors and tv. That should be nowhere near the 2400 watts those breakers are rated for, so either you have a short, or something's wrong with your home's electrical system.
 
I did find some info somewhere about arc fault breakers and how they sometimes like to trip with computers starting/waking up due to the current fluctuations resembling what is actually supposed to trip them. I'm not entirely certain if that's what these are -- when I described the way they looked to a guy at work, he said they're likely arc fault breakers. He further said they have a reputation for "faulty" trips.

Whatever site this was (I think it was somewhere on the Apple forums) suggested that plugging them into a decent UPS would even out the current draw and stop the breakers from tripping. I'd rather not have to spend that kind of money though if it's something in the electrical that should be fixed anyway.

Guess I'll have to ask the electrician about that...

EDIT: Also wondering if maybe it's not the computers at all, but the monitors that maybe are tripping them. Apparently damaged power cords are what these breakers are supposed to catch, and i'm wondering if the monitor or speaker power cable didn't get squished up against the wall and damaged in some way. I'll have to look when I get home.
 
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Try getting a Kill A Watt if you want easily find out how much power your consuming. You can find them on newegg and probably other places like amazon.
 
I haven't been a fan of AFCI breakers, but the suggestion given to you about a UPS is one I can stand behind. If you don't have a UPS for your equipment, you're asking for trouble. Good UPSes these days come with built in line conditioners, which do even out the power both from a draw perspective and a delivery perspective. I have a portable air conditioner AND all my computer equipment on a single 15a AFCI circuit, and it never trips. Sometimes my UPS will notify of a brownout when powering up the air conditioner, but that's expected when it (by itself) has a max draw of 15a.

Short version. Get a UPS, plan to spend $100-$150 per unit, and I recommend one per computer. This is the one I have, and with it you shouldn't have any more problems.
http://www.amazon.com/CyberPower-CP...TF8&qid=1351624706&sr=1-3&keywords=1000va+ups

I'm not saying you don't have a potential breaker/wiring problem, but every desktop computer should be connected to a UPS.
 
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First thing I would do would before resetting the breaker. Check rest of house and see if anything else in the house does not work. This is a simple way to determine if the breaker is feeding more than the plugs in the room you have your pcs in. You may have something else drawing power from said breaker. e.g. fridge/freezer etc. Not all breakers are labeled properly at the panel.
 
solong said:
First thing I would do would before resetting the breaker. Check rest of house and see if anything else in the house does not work. This is a simple way to determine if the breaker is feeding more than the plugs in the room you have your pcs in. You may have something else drawing power from said breaker. e.g. fridge/freezer etc. Not all breakers are labeled properly at the panel.
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I'm relatively certain they're alone -- both rooms are in the lower level, which was wired/finished I believe in 2005, house was built in 1990s. I can check when I get home, I never thought of that.

I know one room's outlets and the light is on a single breaker. The other room, the outlets are separate from the lights.
 
I used to pull over 1000w when I used my 2x 4870x2 in my main computer, and even then I never popped a breaker on my own.

Though my lights will dim each time I power on one of my 3 Yamaha Stereo Power Amplifiers.

The only times I recall blowing a breaker were when I was gaming on my main computer, and at the same time my brother in the next room decided to use the vacuum. That combo was enough to pop the breaker.
 
Arc Fault breakers were experimental, then used for bedrooms, now used for all rooms. They work by detecting the large spike when a current jumps a gap...usually when you see a spark. It is the spark (arcing) which starts house fires. (Assuming the wires and breaker are of the correct gauge for the current, e.g. 12 gauge wire with a 20 amp breaker.) (This is basic and bit simplified, but the gist is correct. Any licensed electrician wishing to jump on these statements...save your breath.)

Arc fault breakers will sometimes trip when a sudden large load gets put on them.

First, get a licensed electrician to examine the wiring. If that part of the house was renovated, it's better to check it out than to have a serious, potentially deadly, problem get ignored. Yeah, it'll cost a few bucks, but it's cheaper than rebuilding and/or setting up funerals.

Secondly, assuming it passes an electrician's check, use a UPS as advised, above.

Third, enjoy the sweetness of smooth-running computers from then on.
 
I have this same exact problem. I also have a Corsair HX650 power supply. It does not happen with any of my other computers with different brand power supplies.

Mine is also intermittently not turning on at all. I have to turn off the main power switch on the back of the power supply for a minute. Once I turn the main switch back on, the computer starts.

I just leave it on 24/7. But I am quite sure it is the power supply itself causing these issues. I am tired of Corsair power supplies. They are supposed to be high quality, but I had to RMA my old HX620 (received the HX650 in exchange). I had to RMA a 400W Corsair in my parent's computer. And now my HX650 is on the fritz.

tl;dr - I would bet it is the HX650 power supply causing your issue.
 
Well, electrician was just out. He took one look at the panel, saw they were arc fault breakers, and that was pretty much it. He said it's likely the power supplies in the computers, since it only happens when they're starting up, but apparently there's no way to specifically test if that's what is tripping them.

Since we've tried it in two rooms (both with arc fault breakers), the likelihood of it being a defective breaker is slim to nil. Also, it's a pretty good indicator that it doesn't matter what is on in the room already, it's ONLY turning the computers on that causes the trip.

His recommendation was to change out the power supplies. I think we may try the UPS route first since we're supposed to have them anyway and it'll cost the same. If we continue to have problems I guess we'll either be RMAing or just tossing the power supplies or something.

I should note, I put a computer in the first room that has an Antec HCG 400w psu and I haven't tripped that breaker since moving these two out.

That was a waste of $100 :mad:
 
Any other suggestions on a UPS? I'd like to keep it around $100 per setup if possible.

Is something like this one (the 1000VA 600w one) okay? Does it have whatever I need to (in theory) even out whatever is causing the breaker to trip? Or is there some other "feature" I should be looking for?
 
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The UPS I linked supports PFC and outputs a pure sine wave.
The UPS you linked does not support PFC and outputs in a stepped-approximate sine wave.

The Corsair HX650 power supplies you have are Active PFC. The model you linked is the one I used to own, but when I switched from a OCZ StealthXStream 700w PSU to my current Corsair TX850, my computer would restart during a blackout if I was playing a game. Bought the UPS that I linked to replace it, no more issues during blackout.
 
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Found a thread regarding a similar issue at the Corsair forums. The guy seems to have fixed his by replacing just the power cord itself, which I find hard to believe, especially considering I have two boxes doing it.

I'm thinking the odds of a manufacturing defect are much greater than the odds of two power cords going bad at the same time...Might be a thing to try though, but I'm not sure if I have 2 extra power cords laying around. I'll have to dig and see what I've got.

Guy also claims a UPS didn't fix his problem, and a couple people I've talked to said they don't think that would prevent the breaker from tripping. I'm kind of reluctant to buy two of those, not knowing if that will even out the power and prevent the arc detection. I think I may just watch around for a sale on a couple new power supplies instead.

I've got an Antec HCG psu in a build currently in the first room, and that hasn't tripped it in the 10-12 startups I've done since moving it in there.
 
Xonim said:
I've got an Antec HCG psu in a build currently in the first room, and that hasn't tripped it in the 10-12 startups I've done since moving it in there.
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Swap the Antec PSU with one of the corsair units and see if the problem follows with nothing else changing.
 
Xonim said:
Found a thread regarding a similar issue at the Corsair forums. The guy seems to have fixed his by replacing just the power cord itself, which I find hard to believe, especially considering I have two boxes doing it.

I'm thinking the odds of a manufacturing defect are much greater than the odds of two power cords going bad at the same time...Might be a thing to try though, but I'm not sure if I have 2 extra power cords laying around. I'll have to dig and see what I've got.

Guy also claims a UPS didn't fix his problem, and a couple people I've talked to said they don't think that would prevent the breaker from tripping. I'm kind of reluctant to buy two of those, not knowing if that will even out the power and prevent the arc detection. I think I may just watch around for a sale on a couple new power supplies instead.

I've got an Antec HCG psu in a build currently in the first room, and that hasn't tripped it in the 10-12 startups I've done since moving it in there.
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After some searching, I found a lot of forums with different suggestions, from power cords, to power supplies, to UPSes, to replacing the breaker. Generally, when you're troubleshooting you want to try the simplest solution first, then move to the more complex ones. Go ahead and try new power cords since that's the simplest, but even if that works you're going to want to protect your equipment from spikes and potential damage from brownouts/blackouts. Personally, I would try a UPS before a new PSU, because they're about the same cost and installing a UPS is a lot simpler than replacing a PSU (especially when considering that you may end up returning the product).

When in this situation, I always recommend buying local and if it solves the problem then you can either barter for an online price match or return the product and buy it online. You don't have to pick the exact UPS linked above, just one with the same specs (PFC compatible, voltage regulator / line conditioner, etc...) The best scenario though would be buying it online from a store that accepts returns from their online presence, like BestBuy, Staples, Office Depot, and others.

However, the guaranteed fix is also the most dangerous. Replacing that AFCI breaker with either a standard or GFCI breaker will fix the problem, as the one universal comment I saw across all the boards were the headaches that come with AFCI and false trips. Unfortunately this is probably against state building code and therefore no licensed electrician will take the job.

Just remember... doing nothing, solves nothing.
 
In 2008 the National Electric Code started requiring AFCI in all rooms of a residence (excuse my gross oversimplification). I don't know how many states/cities/etc are working on adopting this but at least several, including my particular city near Seattle and the State of Oregon, started requiring them only in bedrooms and are now working on getting it required everywhere, but with exceptions allowed due to "nuisance tripping due to certain combinations of appliances that mimic the current wave
form AFCIs associate with arc faults." Here's the very latest State of Oregon stance which has details:

link to pdf

I was not aware before this thread that specific PSUs could cause it. This will be good to know should I see it happen, though I have not yet seen it with either my old Corsair HX520 or my new Seasonic X-560.

AFCI seems to me like a cause worthy of the bother. Arcing can happen commonly whenever pests (rats and squirrels particularly) chew on your wires. Also, in the condo complex I live in, it was found that the company that had originally built our buildings had sprayed texture on the walls in some of the condos with the electrical box open (not just the door but the whole front of it), which lead to arcing damage in some of them.
 
Have you considered unplugging all of your peripheral fans and lights? That stuff usually goes to 100% on power up and really isn't necessary in many cases.

Most people can get away with 1 low rpm intake and output fan, and case lighting is completely unnecessary.

Also, shut the monitor and speakers off when your done, so that they are not drawing power while the system is booting.
 
I have someone that has offered to swap the breakers out (not a licensed electrician, but remodels houses for fun...), but because it would be in violation of building codes, if there were ever a fire, well, I'd be out a house and have no money to buy a new one.

The solution for now is to just leave the computers up 24/7. They're 100% fine once they're up, with rock solid voltages that don't move whatsoever, so for now, that's what we're going to be doing.

I very much would like to take the easy way with the UPS, but there's not a guarantee that it will fix the problem. I mean, there's not a guarantee a new power supply would either, but I think it's a better shot, and if I have to spend some time swapping out PSU's to save some money, I'll do it. I'm going to wait for a good deal (hopefully this month with Black Friday and all) on a power supply and try that. I'm thinking one of the 520w Antecs should be good, probably sub-$50 per. If that doesn't fix it, UPS would be the next shot, but I'd like to save the expensive option for last.

bigdogchris said:
Have you considered unplugging all of your peripheral fans and lights? That stuff usually goes to 100% on power up and really isn't necessary in many cases.

Most people can get away with 1 low rpm intake and output fan, and case lighting is completely unnecessary.

Also, shut the monitor and speakers off when your done, so that they are not drawing power while the system is booting.
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There's no way I'm pulling enough power to trip a 20amp breaker, so I haven't bothered. If each PC was pulling the full 650w, plus 60w for the monitors, then speakers, even the TV in the room, I'd be hard pressed to draw 11amps. And even with all components under full load, there's not enough stuff in the boxes to pull 650w. Something else is wrong.
 
Have you tried plugging a Kill-A-Watt into the outlets and checking the voltage droop while a hair dryer plugged itno it runs at full blast?
 
Xonim,

The solution would seem to be (IMHO) the new power supply from a different vendor. The ACFI breakers are good for the protection you and your family get from them. I wouldn't remove them. Shrug. Your decision. (Which may have an effect on others.)

The Corsair brand PSU's may have a very high initial draw. (Some DC adapters do: ever notice your laptop plug sparks when you plug it in? That's a high draw item due to design. But I may digress...) Suffice it to say, a different PSU would seem to me to be the cheapest solution.

Let us know...
 
larrymoencurly said:
Have you tried plugging a Kill-A-Watt into the outlets and checking the voltage droop while a hair dryer plugged itno it runs at full blast?
Click to expand...

I haven't, because I don't have a Kill-A-Watt yet. Tis on the list...

c3k said:
Xonim,

The solution would seem to be (IMHO) the new power supply from a different vendor. The ACFI breakers are good for the protection you and your family get from them. I wouldn't remove them. Shrug. Your decision. (Which may have an effect on others.)

The Corsair brand PSU's may have a very high initial draw. (Some DC adapters do: ever notice your laptop plug sparks when you plug it in? That's a high draw item due to design. But I may digress...) Suffice it to say, a different PSU would seem to me to be the cheapest solution.

Let us know...
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I'll probably be checking it, but not until I see a good sale on a cheaper supply (Antec HCG or some such), probably toward the end of the month.
 
How about speaking with Corasir tech support, they are usually pretty good - try RMA'ing one of the psu's and see how you get on. Possibly try just one UPS - that way if it doesn't work you are not too much out of pocket.
 
c3k said:
Arc Fault breakers were experimental, then used for bedrooms, now used for all rooms. They work by detecting the large spike when a current jumps a gap...usually when you see a spark. It is the spark (arcing) which starts house fires. (Assuming the wires and breaker are of the correct gauge for the current, e.g. 12 gauge wire with a 20 amp breaker.) (This is basic and bit simplified, but the gist is correct. Any licensed electrician wishing to jump on these statements...save your breath.)

Arc fault breakers will sometimes trip when a sudden large load gets put on them.
Click to expand...

Sounds just like the GFCI outlet that the landlord installed in 2012, for the new bathroom.

The GFCI outlet that the washer is plugged in to trips randomly. It likes to trip when the washer is done filling and is ready to wash.

Sometimes, I come back to the washer to see the washer (Whirlpool top loader) stopped and still filled with water! :mad:
 
RJARRRPCGP said:
Sounds just like the GFCI outlet that the landlord installed in 2012, for the new bathroom. The GFCI outlet that the washer is plugged in to trips randomly. It likes to trip when the washer is done filling and is ready to wash. Sometimes, I come back to the washer to see the washer (Whirlpool top loader) stopped and still filled with water! :mad:
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The GFCI outlet is not the problem; it's telling you that the washer has a problem. Washers that trigger GFCI outlets are washers that need to be checked and repaired or replaced, because that should not be happening. I did not write the following:

HOW A GFCI WORKS…

Inside each GFCI receptacle is a little man with a test meter. He also has a bed, a small kitchenette, a TV with satellite service, and books to read. When you are running something on a GFCI outlet he gets out of his chair, grabs the meter, and makes sure that 100% of the current coming into the receptacle on the black wire is going back out the white wire. If the white wire is missing any current at all he kicks this foot pedal that makes the GFCI pop.

Sometimes he notices that you are using a device that draws too much current. He can tell, because the wires are getting too warm. "Not my problem", he says, "Union rules. This one gets handled by the over-current protection guys."
 
I apologize for pulling up an old thread, but just wanted to post my resolution here. I've seen mentions of similar problems with the same Corsair PSU on other forums, but never found a resolution other than my own. Hopefully this helps someone out someday.

I ordered a new power supply back in May (Seasonic X-650) and finally got around to installing it this weekend. I've done several power cycles that normally would trip the breaker (usually took 3-5 tries to get it to power on without tripping), and after 15-20 cycles it hasn't tripped once. I'm going to go ahead and call it resolved, I guess it was the Corsair PSU. Now I'm going to have to replace my wife's PSU also.
 
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