PC OEMs Are Selling Laptops with Optane Cache Drives and Claiming It’s Memory

Exavior said:
The problem is the words they put together are a lie.

The point is that the fucking device your company makes is not memory, So you don't have 24GB of memory, you have 8 GM of memory. Plugging a 1TB external drive into a USB port doesn't give you 1024GB of memory on this configured system.
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Optane(R) memory isn't memory? Since when? What bizarre definition of memory are you using?
It's not DDR4 DRAM, but no one said it was.

And I don't work for Dell or Intel, bright boy. But hey, you don't let facts get in the way of what you post, do you?
 
pcgeekesq said:
Optane(R) memory isn't memory? Since when? What bizarre definition of memory are you using?
It's not DDR4 DRAM, but no one said it was.

And I don't work for Dell or Intel, bright boy. But hey, you don't let facts get in the way of what you post, do you?
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According to the picture 1_rick posted, it looked an awful lot like it was being represented as equal or substitutable for RAM, don't you think? I didnt read the article, just saw the picture. To me, I think it could described a little better.
 
Joust said:
According to the picture 1_rick posted, it looked an awful lot like it was being represented as equal or substitutable for RAM, don't you think? I didnt read the article, just saw the picture. To me, I think it could described a little better.
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Memory (storage) has been advertised in this way for a long time, long before SSD became common–it's not a new thing. Maybe if you're building your first PC it might confuse you, but then you'd probably be confused if optane memory was advertised as storage, and then you didn't have direct access to it, too.

If you don't know what ddr is, you should look it up before buying it. Same for optane.
 
Joust said:
To me, I think it could described a little better.
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That's a fair comment.

It will get even more confusing when Optane DIMMs arrive -- in fact, are we sure that the Dell laptops aren't using Optane sticks accessed through the CPU's DRAM controller? I couldn't find any information on whether it was that or through PCIe.

If the Optane is hooked to the CPUs DRAM controller, in a lot of ways it's more like RAM than like an SSD.
 
pcgeekesq said:
Optane(R) memory isn't memory? Since when? What bizarre definition of memory are you using?
It's not DDR4 DRAM, but no one said it was.
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Well, in that, case, why not list the SSD under memory, too? It makes perfect sense, according to you! "My new PC has 280GB of memory!" Then Dell could give it 6 bars in their "good better best" graph!
 
Nobu said:
Memory (storage) has been advertised in this way for a long time
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Not on Dell's product configuration pages it hasn't. They always list the CPU, then DRAM, then storage.

not to mention, if you go into the actual "customize your PC" screen, like in my first screenshot, it says "Memory: 8GB DRAM + 16GB Octane" in the section that normally--and currently, for every other PC that doesn't have Optane--only lists, get this, DRAM.
 
1_rick said:
Not on Dell's product configuration pages it hasn't. They always list the CPU, then DRAM, then storage.

not to mention, if you go into the actual "customize your PC" screen, like in my first screenshot, it says "Memory: 8GB DRAM + 16GB Octane" in the section that normally--and currently, for every other PC that doesn't have Optane--only lists, get this, DRAM.
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Why would it list optane if it doesn't have optane? I would be more confused if it listed optane when it wasn't even an option...
 
Nobu said:
But they aren't. If you click on the optane tab on the page you linked, it specifically says it does not replace system memory.

I admit it is presented like it is equal to system memory, but they do not say that it is.
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When you click on recommendations it says consider this much memory and lists optane. 8GB1 or
4 GB + 16GB Intel® Optane™
 
DRAM is a type of memory. Optane is another type of memory. Dell is not reporting Optane as DRAM, but reports Optane as "memory". So Dell reporting both Optane and DRAM as memory is technically accurate.

Non-volatile memory is computer memory that can retain the stored information even when not powered. Examples of non-volatile memory include read-only memory (see ROM), flash memory, most types of magnetic computer storage devices (e.g. hard disk drives, floppy disks and magnetic tape), optical discs, and early computer storage methods such as paper tape and punched cards.

Forthcoming non-volatile memory technologies include FeRAM, CBRAM, PRAM, STT-RAM, SONOS, RRAM, racetrack memory, NRAM, 3D XPoint, and millipede memory.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_memory#Non-volatile_memory
Optane is Intel brand for 3D XPoint memory.
 
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juanrga said:
DRAM is a type of memory. Optane is another type of memory. Dell is not reporting Optane as DRAM, but reports Optane as "memory". So Dell reporting both Optane and DRAM as memory is technically accurate.


Optane is Intel brand for 3D XPoint memory.
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So the bios detects optane as system memory?
 
Hagrid said:
Exactly! Not there which means it is not memory and should not be associated with it.
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Right, logical conclusion is if Optane = DRAM, and 4 + 16 is better than 8, then 32 by itself should be fine. But it's not an option, even though it'd probably be less expensive, because Optane != DRAM. Anyone with half a brain should at this point go find out what Optane actually is before potentially investing in snakeoil.
 
Nobu said:
Right, logical conclusion is if Optane = DRAM, and 4 + 16 is better than 8, then 32 by itself should be fine. But it's not an option, even though it'd probably be less expensive, because Optane != DRAM. Anyone with half a brain should at this point go find out what Optane actually is before potentially investing in snakeoil.
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My bad. I did not know that the whole world knew about computers and stuff like this. When did this happen?
 
Hagrid said:
My bad. I did not know that the whole world knew about computers and stuff like this. When did this happen?
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So you can't use logic or reasoning if you don't know anything about computers? My bad...
 
Nobu said:
So you can't use logic or reasoning if you don't know anything about computers? My bad...
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Sure you can. But you are talking about the general public and not people on a computer site.
Do you know why they have disclaimers about saws about touching or putting your body in the path of the blade? Because people are sometimes not the brightest.(Ok, quite a bit since most stuff probably has a disclaimer on it these days)
They are putting it under the memory subsection. It should be under the drive section. If I am not mistaken isn't it listed on here under the SSD and data storage section?
 
Hagrid said:
So the bios detects optane as system memory?
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There are different kinds of memory. System memory is only a subclass of memory. Optane (3DXpoint memory) is another subclass of memory. Maybe the classic hierarchy helps to understand what is the concept of memory in computer architecture

Memory-Hierarchy.jpg


http://computerscience.chemeketa.edu/cs160Reader/ComputerArchitecture/MemoryHeirarchy.html
 
juanrga said:
There are different kinds of memory. System memory is only a subclass of memory. Optane (3DXpoint memory) is another subclass of memory. Maybe the classic hierarchy helps to understand what is the concept of memory in computer architecture

View attachment 82783

http://computerscience.chemeketa.edu/cs160Reader/ComputerArchitecture/MemoryHeirarchy.html
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I know it's an Intel product and you are barred from saying anything bad against it, but does it show up in bios as memory? Is it used the same as memory? So an application that needs 16gb's of memory will perform the exact same as a comp with 24gb of ddr4, or 8gb ddr4 and 16gb optane?
 
If you can't bother to do some research about the product you're going to buy, you might as well buy a Fisher Price laptop thinking it's as good as a Chrome Book because they cost the same...

Or for a more realistic example, buy an ultraportable instead of a Dell XPS because it's the same price, and expect the same performance.

If you're comparing specifications (8 vs 4+16), then you are already capable of enough critical thought to understand that the 4GB of RAM and 16GB of Optane memory must be different in some way. If you still decide to buy based simply on the fact that they say it's better, rather than asking why it's a separate option, then you'll already be making plenty of poor decisions and it likely wouldn't bother you in the slightest anyway.
 
Nobu said:
If you can't bother to do some research about the product you're going to buy, you might as well buy a Fisher Price laptop thinking it's as good as a Chrome Book because they cost the same...

Or for a more realistic example, buy an ultraportable instead of a Dell XPS because it's the same price, and expect the same performance.

If you're comparing specifications (8 vs 4+16), then you are already capable of enough critical thought to understand that the 4GB of RAM and 16GB of Optane memory must be different in some way. If you still decide to buy based simply on the fact that they say it's better, rather than asking why it's a separate option, then you'll already be making plenty of poor decisions and it likely wouldn't bother you in the slightest anyway.
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I am not looking to buy. I already know. Are you trolling or serious?
 
Hagrid said:
I am not looking to buy. I already know. Are you trolling or serious?
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We aren't talking about you... (although now I'm beginning to wonder. /sarcasm )
 
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Nobu said:
Why would it list optane if it doesn't have optane? I would be more confused if it listed optane when it wasn't even an option...
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Is it honestly unclear that Optane cache should be listed with storage, not memory (i.e., dram)? It's a cache. It's not even separately addressable memory from your point of view. You get 16GB Optane + a 500GB hard drive, you don't have 516gb of usable space. Nor do you have 24gb of dram.
 
Nobu said:
I admit it is presented like it is equal to system memory
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That's the point! You have to click into the "help me choose" and then change tabs to find that out!

It's similar to how in the 80s, when everyone was advertising 64KB-RAM computers, someone (Tandy?) said *theirs* had 65KB. Well, it's true, but it's also a lie, because they were using a different yardstick.
 
1_rick said:
That's the point! You have to click into the "help me choose" and then change tabs to find that out!

It's similar to how in the 80s, when everyone was advertising 64KB-RAM computers, someone (Tandy?) said *theirs* had 65KB. Well, it's true, but it's also a lie, because they were using a different yardstick.
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Except they aren't saying they have 24GB of RAM (8GB RAM + 16GB optane), they're saying they have 24GB of memory (8GB RAM + 16GB optane), and they specify that not all of it is the same thing. If you choose to remain ignorant about what the two types of memories are, and why you might want them both (or why you wouldn't) after seeing that they're both present in one product when in other products optane is absent entirely, then you're not doing yourself any favors.

Same if you were to buy something that advertised 564GB of storage (500GB HDD and 64GB SSD) without looking up what a SSD is, just because they said 500GB HDD + 64GB SSD is better than 1TB HDD alone. In the 80's you might have to read a book or technology magazine to learn what these terms mean. Today it's not that difficult, and if you can't be bothered to look it up you can either choose to buy something even though you don't know what good it'll do you (just that it might be better), or you can buy something that you know will work for you. Moving the optane from the memory section to a cache ("what's cache?" asks the average joe) section or the storage section (not exactly right either...) wont change a thing.

Edit: also, not sure if you were agreeing or being sarcastic, but this helps illustrate my point so I'll leave it as is.
 
There are many distinctions that void Optane from being memory.

It does not have its own bus and exists on a shared resource.

Mapping is arbitrary.

Size may be smaller than the cache levels above it. You could have 32gb ram with a 16gb optane.

At best its classification is that of an accelerator. (same as a GPU) At worst it's just plain storage.

We don't add GPU memory to system memory nor do we add drive size.
 
pcgeekesq said:
Optane(R) memory isn't memory? Since when? What bizarre definition of memory are you using?
It's not DDR4 DRAM, but no one said it was.

And I don't work for Dell or Intel, bright boy. But hey, you don't let facts get in the way of what you post, do you?
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you mentioned in an above post that you worked for Intel.
 
Hagrid said:
I know it's an Intel product and you are barred from saying anything bad against it, but does it show up in bios as memory? Is it used the same as memory? So an application that needs 16gb's of memory will perform the exact same as a comp with 24gb of ddr4, or 8gb ddr4 and 16gb optane?
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The definition of memory is the same for everyone. Check the computer architecture link or the Wikipedia link given. Dell is using correctly the term memory. If some people confound "memory" with "DRAM", then it is not Dell's fault.

It is not the first time people is ignorant about technology. Something similar happened with AMD and the Bulldozer cores. AMD was using the term "core" correctly [1]. But some ignorant guy sued AMD over claims that "it misrepresented the core counts of its eight-core Bulldozer products". The ignorant guy pretending that his 8 core Bulldozer chip has only 4 cores and that AMD lied him. He was plain wrong, Bulldozer has 8-cores and his lawsuit was lacking any technical basis.

NOTE:

[1] AMD Bulldozer architecture uses conjoined cores, which is a concept was introduce in computer architecture many years before Bulldozer was launched.
 
juanrga said:
The definition of memory is the same for everyone. Check the computer architecture link or the Wikipedia link given. Dell is using correctly the term memory. If some people confound "memory" with "DRAM", then it is not Dell's fault.

It is not the first time people is ignorant about technology. Something similar happened with AMD and the Bulldozer cores. AMD was using the term "core" correctly [1]. But some ignorant guy sued AMD over claims that "it misrepresented the core counts of its eight-core Bulldozer products". The ignorant guy pretending that his 8 core Bulldozer chip has only 4 cores and that AMD lied him. He was plain wrong, Bulldozer has 8-cores and his lawsuit was lacking any technical basis.

NOTE:

[1] AMD Bulldozer architecture uses conjoined cores, which is a concept was introduce in computer architecture many years before Bulldozer was launched.
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You still did not answer the question does it show up in bios as memory?

The product itself is made from memory but it's not system memory.
 
schmide said:
There are many distinctions that void Optane from being memory.

It does not have its own bus and exists on a shared resource.

Mapping is arbitrary.

Size may be smaller than the cache levels above it. You could have 32gb ram with a 16gb optane.

At best its classification is that of an accelerator. (same as a GPU) At worst it's just plain storage.

We don't add GPU memory to system memory nor do we add drive size.
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But we add system memory to gpu memory. System memory can be remapped and used as temporary disk storage. Might be time to just list memory and then its speed after it to help distinguish.

We are again getting into where teminology becomes a barrier for some and a marketing weapon for others in the tech industry. While these oems are not incorrect in their descriptions, they are also not 100% correct either. They are playing in a gray area and spinning it for sales (which if you dont know already is and has been done for ages).

Also which of you kids are buying any of these anyways? Has anyone here bought a prebuilt in a while or also while at it the optane drive?
 
juanrga said:
There are different kinds of memory. System memory is only a subclass of memory. Optane (3DXpoint memory) is another subclass of memory. Maybe the classic hierarchy helps to understand what is the concept of memory in computer architecture

View attachment 82783

http://computerscience.chemeketa.edu/cs160Reader/ComputerArchitecture/MemoryHeirarchy.html
Click to expand...
Optane doesn't fit into that hierarchy. It can be used to make an SSD (just as DRAM can and in fact used to be) but it can also be plugged into a DDR4 DRAM slot and used as system RAM. This is because unlike Flash, in which each memory word can only be written once between block erase cycles, Optane can be written to just like DRAM. Unlike Flash, there's no practical limit to how many times you can write to an Optane memory cell. And unlike Flash, there's no need to remap data addresses, since Optane doesn't need to shuffle data between erase blocks like Flash does.

From a system perspective, Optane can act like battery-backed up DRAM: true random access, no need to erase, no management overhead.
DRAM is still faster (about 30x faster) than Optane, but if you're mainly operating out of CPU cache (which is much faster than either) you may not notice.
Alternatively Optane can be put in an SSD and act like a "disk drive," but at speeds much higher than Flash. This is the most common deployment of Optane at present.

Getting the maximum benefit out of Optane will require hardware and operating systems that don't treat it as DRAM or an SSD, but treat it like what it is: something between the two. This might mean a system that takes the virtual memory model currently used in "system RAM" and apply it to nonvolatile storage. Everything, even the BIOS, would be in "virtual" Optane-type memory, and your SSD/HDD would act as a giant "swap file" to store whatever currently doesn't fit. Of course, the BIOS and key parts of the OS (like the virtual nonvolatile memory management code) would be locked into the actual Optane-type memory, just as key pieces of the OS are locked into physical memory in modern systems.

TL;DR: Optane breaks the old paradigms about what is and isn't "RAM." It is RAM, but not high-speed DRAM. It can be used as system memory, or it can instead be used as an SSD, and the difference in system performance between the two uses is non-trivial. Educating the average consumer to understand these things is probably 99% futile.
 
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Darunion said:
Has anyone here bought the optane drive?
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I'd buy an Optane drive, except of my two M.2 slots, one is under my GTX 1080, and the other has a Samsung SSD in it.
The next system I build for myself or my wife, though, has a good chance of having an Optane drive.
 
Darunion said:
But we add system memory to gpu memory. System memory can be remapped and used as temporary disk storage. Might be time to just list memory and then its speed after it to help distinguish.
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Add is the wrong word. Entities are mapped into virtual address space. They still have to follow the protocols of an external device. When used by the CPU, the data must be in physical memory.

No one would ever declare the virtual address space as physical memory. Want to buy a computer with petabytes of memory?

Darunion said:
We are again getting into where teminology becomes a barrier for some and a marketing weapon for others in the tech industry. While these oems are not incorrect in their descriptions, they are also not 100% correct either. They are playing in a gray area and spinning it for sales (which if you dont know already is and has been done for ages).
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They are 100% incorrect. There is no gray area. Physical memory is a finite resource that does not combine with other resources.

Now if optane is in the form of a dimm and serves the CPU directly. It is memory.
 
Nobu said:
Except they aren't saying they have 24GB of RAM (8GB RAM + 16GB optane), they're saying they have 24GB of memory (8GB RAM + 16GB optane), and they specify that not all of it is the same thing.
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Come on, do we have to keep doing this? Have you never seen a Dell product configurator before? They always break down at the top into 4 several categories: CPU, OS, "memory", and "storage". In this context, "Memory" means "DRAM" and always has, for, I dunno, ten years? For them to suddenly put cache in the ram bucket is wrong. Stop defending them.

Nobu said:
If you choose to remain ignorant about what the two types of memories are
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And don't say this. That's just being a jerk. It should be obvious that I understand the difference because I've been pointing it out constantly in this thread.
 
Nobu said:
Same if you were to buy something that advertised 564GB of storage (500GB HDD and 64GB SSD) without looking up what a SSD is, just because they said 500GB HDD + 64GB SSD is better than 1TB HDD alone.
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As I think I mentioned, this is a bad example. One that compares better to what Dell is actually doing is to claim you have 564GB of storage when the SSD (or, with what Dell is doing, Optane) is actually a cache, and not additional storage. You don't have 564GB of usable storage, you have 500, as far as I understand it.
 
schmide said:
We don't add GPU memory to system memory nor do we add drive size.
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Actually, this is similar to something AMD was doing with its APUs a couple of years ago, now that I think of it. They'd have a quad-core part with 10 GPU compute units and claim it was a 14-core ("4+10") part.

Sure, it's technically true, but it's misleading, and someone who's not tech-savvy but just wants a decent computer is not going to understand it, and insulting them for not knowing it is not cool, either.


It's like insulting people for not understanding the difference between carburated, SEFI, and MFI fuel injection, and then mocking them for getting it wrong.
 
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