Partioning help.....

[Deejay3d]

This is the deal: Due to my file system being a complete mess, I am going to be doing a clean install of XP MCE and starting from scratch. By "mess" I mean that I have the following partitions:

C:/ 20GB - OS and page file
H:/ 50GB - Games
M:/ 30GB - Music
P:/ 20GB - Programs
S:/ 50GB - Pics, Docs, anything I couldn't fit on the others (created after I realized the innefficiency of my system and ran out of space on H and P.)
I:/ 232GB - This is the external HDD, which has all sorts of different stuff on it.

Now do you see why I am doing a clean install? lol I don't know WTF I was thinking.

So anyway, I ordered the 150GB Raptor X. (the X was only $20 more on Newegg, so I figured, why not?) I will be doing a complete reinstall on Fri. or Sat. I will be giong through my system during the week and backing up anything I want to keep onto the external HDD, though I will be eliminating alot of useless files/programs. I got a little download-happy with utilities, benchmarks, etc.

To make a short story long, I know that the Raptor should be my Primary, with the OS and most used programs on it, I.E.games. Also from what I have read, the page file should go on it, as well, as the first partition, putting it at the outer-most edge of the platter, which is the quickest part of the disk. Am I correct? What I am unsure about is whether or not to make partitions, and if so how many and how big? I remember now that the main reason for the partitions was for easier / quicker defragmenting. Is this benefit worth the hassle? So I guess I am looking for answers to the following questions:

1.) Should the OS be isolated on its own partition? If so, how big? And also if yes, then is it better to move Docs, Pics, etc. to a storage drive?
2.) I've heard that putting the pagefile on a separate HDD can boost performance a bit, but you wouldn't want to put it on a slower drive, right?

It would be great if you could just tell me how you would set yours up if you had the same setup. Thanks in advance, and sorry for another "Raptor thread". lol

 

[Deejay3d]

Jeez, I can't get some input? Is this too stupid of a question? Come on guys, where's the luv? I see people asking ridiculous questions, like "My computer won't turn on. Should the power supply be plugged in?"(exaggerated, but come on, you've seen them), and get immediate responses.

 

[bbz_Ghost]

First off you didn't say how large the current single internal drive is so it forced me to think which as we all know is highly overrated. Yes it's listed in the sig but dammit, it should have been right there at the gitgo as you laid out the partition structure you have now. Picky picky picky, that's me.

Second off the world turns, and not everyone is awake 24/7 like some of us <hint, hint> and I simply didn't notice this thread till just now.

Third... well... we'll get to that some other time, just consider it a ??? right now.

Fourth... PROFIT!!!

Ok, bad South Park joke, sue me.

Anywhooooo...

My addition comes up with 170GB which, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't match the 200GB hard drive you have listed in your sig, so... somewhere you seem to have lost 30GB:

20 + 50 + 30 + 20 + 50 = 170-ish, in terms of Gigabytes, yanno, so... where's that other 30-ish, in terms of Gigabytes, yanno.

Then I'd ask why you have the Programs on some other partition/drive - for speed and efficiency, most programs should be installed on the system drive/partition and that would place them right there at the outer edges (the beginning of the drive) along with the OS and pagefile.

With the Raptor as your primary drive, placing a 1GB pagefile on that drive with the OS and then adding a second pagefile to the 200GB drive (which obviously becomes primarily a backup/data drive) as soon as it's situated is a good idea. Figure out how you want to lay the 200GB drive out (might as well leave it one large partition, I suppose and just use folders for the specific purposes, or do whatever you want).

The point is: as soon as the 200GB is assigned it's duties, slap a pagefile on the first partition on the drive so it gets placed at the beginning, I'd say make it 2GB static (min/max) and that'll be all you have to do for pagefile tuning.

As for the Raptor, well, how about 30GB for the OS, programs and pagefile (just 1GB, remember), 70GB for games, and the rest for random stuff, new downloads, etc.

Really, the only person that can do this stuff is you; all I or anyone else can offer are suggestions that you either blow off or accept and use on your own.

'Nuff typed.

 

[Deejay3d]

Really, the only person that can do this stuff is you; all I or anyone else can offer are suggestions that you either blow off or accept and use on your own.

Absolutely true. Suggestions are all I was asking for. Thank you.

First off you didn't say how large the current single internal drive is so it forced me to think which as we all know is highly overrated. Yes it's listed in the sig but dammit, it should have been right there at the gitgo as you laid out the partition structure you have now. Picky picky picky, that's me.

You're right, sorry, I cut down the length of the post and forgot to add that back in.

My addition comes up with 170GB which, if I'm not mistaken, doesn't match the 200GB hard drive you have listed in your sig, so... somewhere you seem to have lost 30GB:

There is a wasted 30GB sitting at the end of the drive. What can I say? I was very noob when I did all of this. I guess I thought maybe I would need yet another partition later on. lol

With the Raptor as your primary drive, placing a 1GB pagefile on that drive with the OS and then adding a second pagefile to the 200GB drive (which obviously becomes primarily a backup/data drive) as soon as it's situated is a good idea. Figure out how you want to lay the 200GB drive out (might as well leave it one large partition, I suppose and just use folders for the specific purposes, or do whatever you want).

So, I can use two separate page files? Of different sizes? How would I go about doing that? As far as I have seen, windows only gives you the option to place a single page file.

The point is: as soon as the 200GB is assigned it's duties, slap a pagefile on the first partition on the drive so it gets placed at the beginning, I'd say make it 2GB static (min/max) and that'll be all you have to do for pagefile tuning.

Okay, when you say add a pagefile, do you mean as its own partition, or just on whatever partition the drive ends up being? It is more efficient if it has its own space to work in, right? Or does it really matter?

As for the Raptor, well, how about 30GB for the OS, programs and pagefile (just 1GB, remember), 70GB for games, and the rest for random stuff, new downloads, etc.

That doesn't sound too bad. But what about the My Docs, My Pics, etc? Just leave them on C: drive? Also, how come only 1Gb on the primary and 2GB on the the secondary?

Sorry to keep bombarding with questions. What you have already said has helped me alot. It is along the same lines of what I was thinking of. I just need some help as far as setting up the page files. I am taking it that it is not really a good idea to partition the hell of out everything. Just isolate the OS, games, and perhaps the page files (waiting on answer to that.)

 

[Deejay3d]

Can anyone else offer some guidance?

 

[general]

I can't really tell how much data you have. Partition sizes don't mean that they're full.

 

[bbz_Ghost]

He probably means he used some Primary partitions on that drive when all that is ever really needed is one single Primary partition - the system drive or partition - and the rest of the drive can be an Extended partition so you can put a bunch of Logical drives in there if necessary. That's how I read his statement. He partitioned out 3 Primaries and had 1 Extended but neglected to plan ahead. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's how I read it.

Anywhooo...



"Step into the circle, and gain knowledge, my young Padawan..."

Ok, another bad joke, I'm in a goofy mood today, sue me.

Inside the circle is where you set the pagefile options where you can:

- modify the current settings which default to a pagefile of approximately 1.5x the size of your system RAM and on the system drive which is typically C:
- add additional pagefiles on other drives or partitions, preferably on seperate physical drives on seperate controllers (in that shot I'm using a 1GB pagefile on C: with a secondary 1GB pagefile on an external hard drive in a Firewire 400 case, actually)
- delete pagefiles, obviously

Back to my original point in this post:

There is no reason to use more than one single Primary partition on a hard drive nowadays, even with RAID/SATA/SCSI/ATA/etc I don't care. Your primary hard drive, the one you instead to install your primary main everyday OS on it - that drive only needs one Primary partition on it for the system drive and it must be Active to boot from it. The rest of the drive, regardless of how much space it has, can be and should be set up as an Extended partition.

Once the Extended partition is created you can then go add a bunch of Logical "drives" (partitions inside the Extended one, actually, hence the Logical moniker) until you run out of drive letters.

Primary partitions are ok if you absolutely feel you must use them, but for all intents and purposes, you just need one for the OS and it needs to be Active so it's bootable.

Moving on...

If you set up the Raptor as I already suggested, then obviously that 200GB drive will be an Extended partition - one Extended partition taking up the entire contents of the drive. Once that's created, you can then add Logical drives on it, but again, you're still looking at a limited amount of drive letters overall. Windows machines are still limited to using 26 letters, and A: and B: are already reserved by the system, C: is the most common for the primary hard drive/system partition, so it's up to you how you want to handle things

There's no reason to have that 200GB drive connected to the computer at all until you get the Raptor situated and with XP installed - that is another suggestion and you're welcome to chuck it or accept it and use it. I've learned over the years that when it comes to installing an OS clean, the best method by far is to remove all the hard drives in a system except the particular drive(s) necessary to install the OS - the rest can be added after you're up and running, and when you add them back into the system make sure they're always set up with Extended partitions and Logical drives inside those Extended partitions.

The reasoning is simple: Primary partitions steal the first 3-4 drive letters automagically. Extended partitions/Logical drives come up in sequence, which is a damned handy thing to have. Say you have that Raptor set up as I suggested earlier:

C: is 30GB for the system partition, (primary) pagefile, and programs (Primary partition, Active and bootable)
D: is 70GB for games, multimedia, etc (1st Logical drive inside the Extended partition which is 115GB or so - meaning it's all the space left on the drive after you created the C: 30GB Primary)
E: is 45GB or so (damned computer math) for random stuff, downloads, etc (2nd Logical drive inside the Extended partition)

then F: would be your CD/DVD drive, etc. This is a typical layout.

Here's where the problem comes in:

Let's say you chuck my advice to make that 200GB one Extended partition and create some Logicals inside it. Instead, you blow off my suggestion and decide "I'm gonna make it one big Primary."

So you do it and you end up with a 200GB drive as one Primary partition. Now let's say that's an external drive, and when you plug it in, what happens to the drive letters of the others? Why, nothing of course, because XP will see it as removable storage and assign the next available drive letter, making that 200GB external G:.

However...

If you decide to install that 200GB drive single Primary partition drive internally right alongside the Raptor, and you install it after you've got the Raptor set up and working properly and XP is installed and running smoothly, what will happen to your drive letters?

They'll change.

The Raptor's Primary partition, 30GB in size, and Active, will remain C: - that won't change.

But the 200GB drive installed internally will now automagically become - <drumroll please> - yep, you guessed it... D:.

Sucks, don't it?

So, make the 200GB one big Extended partition and then add whatever Logical drives you want in whatever configuration you want. And guess what happens if you install the 200GB drive with one big Extended partition and a bunch of smaller Logical drives inside it?

<drumroll please> The drive letters already in place don't change except for the CD/DVD drive. It will now become the last drive letter according to how many Logical drives you put on the 200GB. Say you made 4 ~50GB Logical drives on it, and following our example set forth so far, it'll look like this:

30GB C: on the Raptor
70GB D: on the Raptor
45GB E: on the Raptor
50GB F: on the 200GB
50GB G: on the 200GB
50GB H: on the 200GB
~45GB I: on the 200GB
CD/DVD J:

See how that works? I hope so...

NEXT!!!

I chose a 1GB pagefile on the Primary system drive because you've only got 1GB of RAM - 2GB on the 200GB because it's 200GB and you can spare 2GB to make your system work better, right?

The rest is up to you. I can't get into where you want to stash My Pics, My Documents, etc. You'll have ~350GB of room to play with, my purpose was to give you suggestions on how to partition it all out since that's what you were aiming for.

Hell, you could always just do this:

150GB C: on the Raptor, one Primary partition using all the available drive space
200GB D: on the 200GB, Extended partition, one Logical drive using all the available drive space
CD/DVD E:



Good luck...

 

[Deejay3d]

Wow, thank you for such a detailed explanation. I do, of course, have more questions. (You guys hate me, I know) I am not exactly a noob, but definitely not a vet, either. When you refer to Primary, Extended, and Logical partitions, I am a little confused. I know that logical drives are created in Windows Disk Management, correct? But when you say "primary", I get lost cause I thought you could only have one Primary, the one with the OS on it. Damn, I am sorry. I should just search for some guides and explanations on partitions and drives in Windows. But if you could break it down briefly and simply for me that would be awesome. Sometimes users like you guys can get the point across a lot easier than some "guide" from Microsoft or something.

I do think I will be trying to limit the amount of partitions, whether they be primaries, extended or logical drives. Thats how I made the mess in the first place. I think I will just try to separate the OS, games, and storage. From your post I am taking it that you just put the page file on another partition, not its own?

So, briefly, let me see if I have a grasp on this:
During the Install, I create a 30Gb partition to install the OS. then once inside windows, I create another partion with the rest of the drive, then I add logical drives to separate games, etc.?

I was just looking at disk management, and I think I am starting to get it. After the 30Gb for the OS, I go there and it will show C: and the rest free space. I can then partition the rest of the drive and it will become an extended partition. Then within that I create my logical drives for games, downloads, etc.? But I want to complete partitioning on the Raptor first, right? Then when I add the Maxtor, I make an extended partion out of the whole thing? Then add logicals. And doing it this way will keep drive letters in order? Sorry that I am such a dumb ass. I just want to learn how to do this in an efficient, easy way. Thank you for being patient.

 

[unhappy_mage]

When you refer to Primary, Extended, and Logical partitions, I am a little confused. I know that logical drives are created in Windows Disk Management, correct? But when you say "primary", I get lost cause I thought you could only have one Primary, the one with the OS on it.

Here's a link on Wikipedia: Disk partitioning. You can have up to four primary partitions on a given disk (in the DOS scheme, anyways - which is all you're likely to run into any time soon). One and only one of those may be an extended partition which can contain multiple logical drives.

I do think I will be trying to limit the amount of partitions, whether they be primaries, extended or logical drives. Thats how I made the mess in the first place. I think I will just try to separate the OS, games, and storage.

For what purpose are you separating them? Speed? Data security?

So, briefly, let me see if I have a grasp on this:
During the Install, I create a 30Gb partition to install the OS. then once inside windows, I create another partition with the rest of the drive, then I add logical drives to separate games, etc.?

That'd work, yes. Or you could create multiple partitions while installing. Doesn't really matter.

After the 30Gb for the OS, I go there and it will show C: and the rest free space. I can then partition the rest of the drive and it will become an extended partition. Then within that I create my logical drives for games, downloads, etc.?

Correct. Or make up to two more primary partitions and *then* an extended partition and logical partitions. Or three primary partitions, but then you're stuck.

 

[bbz_Ghost]

Here's a tidbit I just ripped from an excellent description so it should help (stolen from a Novell page, actually):

"Partition Types

Every hard disk has a partition table with space for four entries. An entry in the partition table can correspond to a primary partition or an extended partition. Only one extended partition entry is allowed, however.

A primary partition consists of a continuous range of cylinders (physical disk areas) assigned to a particular operating system. If you have only primary partitions, you are limited to four partitions per hard disk (because more will not fit in the partition table). This is why extended partitions are used. Extended partitions are also continuous ranges of disk cylinders, but an extended partition can be subdivided into logical partitions. Logical partitions do not require entries in the partition table. In other words, an extended partition is a container for logical partitions.

If you need more than four partitions, create an extended partition as soon as the fourth partition or earlier. This extended partition should span the entire remaining free cylinder range. Then create multiple logical partitions within the extended partition."

That should clear things up for you, somewhat. Here's the procedure I'd follow myself if I had the exact hardware you've talked about:

I'd make sure I had the proper SATA controller drivers on a floppy, or if that wasn't possible (perhaps you don't have a floppy drive at all to use) I'd create an XP SP2 CD of my own and integrate the latest SATA controller drivers into the installer files so it's not an issue.

Then when I'm truly ready to get started I'd:


1) Make sure the Raptor is installed (obviously) and the BIOS/SATA controller can see it. Also I would have removed the 200GB drive from the machine or at least disconnected both the power and the SATA cable from it so there is no connection the mobo whatsoever.

2) Put that custom XP SP2 CD in the CD/DVD drive and boot the computer off it.

3) When it gets to the point where you have to do the partitioning, obviously remove all the partitions off the drive if any exist. Create a 30GB partition for C:, then create the others also - it's important to create them now even if you're not going to format them because you want to ensure the drive letters fall in sequence.

If you only create a C: drive now, when you get into XP it'll have C: and D:, the CD/DVD drive, and you'll have to then create the partitions and do some drive letter rearranging. That's ok if you want to follow that path, go for it. But I say do it right the first time - so do the partitioning at this point.

Don't worry about the partition types; the XP setup will handle the Primary/Active for you, the rest will become stuff you can work with after XP is working.

4) Do the installation and verify everything is up and running properly. Image it if you can at that point to a DVD if you're interested. That's what I'd do, but that's another posting and thread all together so let's not go there just yet.

5) Install your AV software if you have any. If necessary at this point the only hardware driver I would install is the NIC driver so I can get online to update the AV software with the latest signatures/patches.

6) After that, I'd reboot one time to make sure it's all functional, and then install the latest chipset/mobo drivers, after which I'd make another image. I'm fond of imaging because it takes a few minutes but can save HOURS of frustrations and hassles if you somehow get things pooched and you have to start all over again from scratch.

7) Once you get all that done, and hopefully you've imaged it to protect/save all your work done so far, now it's time to fix the partitioning by running Disk Management. If you do run it, and you've followed the path I've outlined so far, you'll see a C: drive, a D: drive, an E: drive and your CD/DVD should be F:. If not, then you chose some other path and now I'd be too confuzzled to help sooo... don't do that.

Right click on the D: area in Disk Management and choose Delete Partition. Click Yes on the warning and delete it. Now do the same thing for E:. After that, you should have C: still there, and now you should have one big huge empty space colored with black trim and the word "Unallocated" sitting there right under the amount of space. Right where you want to be.

8) Now, right click on that empty space, choose New Partition, follow through the steps and make that entire unallocated space an Extended partition. There's no formatting here, and no drive letter assignments - just create the Extended partition and you'll do the other stuff in the next step.

9) Right click on the Extended partition (colored with green trim) and choose New Logical drive, go through the steps to create a 70GB (or whatever you want at this point) Logical drive with the drive letter which should default to D: and QuickFormat it with NTFS - also pick a drive label/volume name if you want.

10) When that's done, do the same process again and create the E: drive the same way.

11) That's pretty much it. You'll have one Primary partition (it's already Active since you booted off it, no worries, nothing to mess with there at all), you'll have an Extended partition taking up the rest of the space on the drive that contains two Logical drives inside it, D: and E:, and your CD/DVD drive remains F: without having to tinker with drive letter reassignments.

Primary partitions have priority on drive letter assignments, so what I said earlier about the 200GB "Primary" would become D: even though you had other partitions on the Raptor was the whole point: I was trying to give you an example you'd understand.

Drive letters are assigned by priority:

Primary partitions get the "lowest" ones, meaning closer to C:
Primary partitions on seperate physical drives have priority over Extended partitions with Logical drives also, hence the 200GB becoming D: next to the Raptor even having other partitions.

It's a bitch to deal with and explain, and for most if not all people, one single Primary partition for their OS is all they need. Everything else can be Extended partitions with Logical drives and that doesn't fuck up any of the drive letter sequencing, unless people want to reassign drive letters themselves with Disk Management, which you already know how to do.

'Nuff typed.

 

[Deejay3d]

unhappy_mage

For what purpose are you separating them? Speed? Data security?

A little of both. Security so I don't lose all my game files. Speed not in performance, but in defragging. Do you know how long it takes to defrag a terribly fragmented 200GB drive? I do, that's why I break it up.

I'd make sure I had the proper SATA controller drivers on a floppy, or if that wasn't possible (perhaps you don't have a floppy drive at all to use)

Actually, no, out of all the spare parts and old computers I have, I do not have a single floppy drive. But I have never needed to install any drivers from a floppy. I just hook up the SATA drive, boot up, and bam, start installing windows. What are the drivers you're talking about.

Do I really need 30GB for Windows? I know you can run out of space, which I did quite a few times on this setup, if you overload your My Pictures and My Documents, and especially My Videos. But don't I want to keep my games as close to the outside of the drive as possible, for maximum performance? Would it be better to move all those to the Storage Drive aka 200GB Maxtor? That way I can keep the OS partition as small as possible? (My "know-it-all buddy swears that he only partitions off 8GB for Windows)

Also, I never got an answer about the page file. On its own partition or no? I've heard alot of people talk about putting it as its own partition at the very beginning so its the fastest. Makes sense to me.

Do the installation and verify everything is up and running properly. Image it if you can at that point to a DVD if you're interested.

Yes, we will need to go over this another time, because I have always wanted to make one of those with all my updates and patches on it. I'll be messaging you.

As far as leaving the Maxtor out during install, I have installed of computers with multiple HDDs before and never had an issue. As long as you make sure you are installing or partitioning on the correct drive, it should be okay. I would think it would be easier to partition off the Maxtor at that point rather than going through changing drive letters and whatnot. I honestly don't really give a hoot what the letters are, so long as its organized, there is enough room for everything that needs to be on whichever partition, and it looks nothing like the cluster-fuck that I have going right now..lol I am going to do my best to keep it to an absolute bare-minimum of installed programs. It will be noce to be able to keep my OS drive empty of all assorted storage, except for games and main apps. All the BS will just go on the Maxtor and external.

 

[unhappy_mage]

A little of both. Security so I don't lose all my game files. Speed not in performance, but in defragging. Do you know how long it takes to defrag a terribly fragmented 200GB drive? I do, that's why I break it up.

Do you know how often I defrag my terribly fragmented hard drive? Never

What are the drivers you're talking about.

If you set your BIOS to use AHCI mode, you'll need drivers for the sata ports so that Windows will recognize the drives.

Also, I never got an answer about the page file. On its own partition or no? I've heard alot of people talk about putting it as its own partition at the very beginning so its the fastest. Makes sense to me.

To be honest, I don't care where my pagefile goes as long as it goes somewhere. If enough stuff gets paged out that I'm hurting, it's gonna suck pretty much no matter what I'm paging from. More memory is (almost) always better.