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OLED/AMOLED

I've been using a Cowon S9 everyday since Feb '09 that has static images a lot when playing music, and it has absolutely no signs of image retention.
 
I must say I believe this fear of burn-in is a bit to strong.

Why just not take som precautions to minimize the risk?

  • Set the screensaver to go off in just two minutes or so
  • Change the skin in your OS once in a while
  • Run the web browser in full screen from time to time (F11)
  • Set the taskbar to auto-hide during periods

The manufacturers should of course write this in their manuals.
 
Last edited:
steal said:
I bet IR isn't covered by the warrantee of an LCD, either :confused:
Click to expand...

I bet it is. Try to find an LCD manual that explicitly says burn in isn't covered by the warranty.

The XEL-1 has a measly one year warranty and prints all over the manual to avoid anything that might burn in, it even tells you not to watch 4:3 TV programs in native mode with black bars and tells you it isn't covered by your measly 1 year warranty.

My NEC has 4 year warranty, no burn in disclaimer because IR on an LCD is extremely rare and is temporary reversible phenomena.


Jonte said:
I must say I believe this fear of burn-in is a bit to strong.

Why just not take som precautions to minimize the risk?

  • Set the screensaver to go off in just two minutes or so
  • Change the skin in your OS once in a while
  • Run the web browser in full screen from time to time (F11)
  • Set the taskbar to auto-hide during periods

The manufacturers should of course write this in their manuals.
Click to expand...

Sony does tell you read the link for the manual above. It tells you avoid watching TV stations with logos, avoid watching 4:3 TV station and if you were using it on a computer you could add randomizing you desktop icons. Move you programs around the screen etc....

Or more simply, don't use it as a computer monitor rather than jump through crazy hoops trying not to burn it in. Or wait until they actually get a practical long life blue OLED.
 
Oh geez, can we please get over the Gen 2 XEL-1 by now? We're at Gen 5.frigging 5 already making Gen 2 look like ancient history. Drive voltages, material composition... everything has changed.
 
Elledan said:
Oh geez, can we please get over the Gen 2 XEL-1 by now? We're at Gen 5.frigging 5 already making Gen 2 look like ancient history. Drive voltages, material composition... everything has changed.
Click to expand...

Great, show us the manual for all the other OLED TVs...

(sound of crickets chirping)
 
Snowdog said:
Great, show us the manual for all the other OLED TVs...

(sound of crickets chirping)
Click to expand...

Yes, please do show them. On a sidenote, I didn't find the LG AMOLED TV manual after a quick search. It probably has the same kind of generic warning in it as PDP manuals have, though.

daveswantek said:
You know what; I have finally realized you are right, and money is not a problem for me, so where can I buy one of these Gen 5 beauties?

Dave

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/home-thea...tvs-panasonic-samsung-push-on/762?tag=btxcsim
Click to expand...

http://www.lg.com/uk/tv-audio-video/televisions/LG-oled-tv-15EL9500.jsp
 
Please guys, tell me what printable OLED is in non engineering terms.

Obviously I won't live long enough to see a 24" AMOLED monitor sitting on my
desk. Pity....
 
Printable AMOLED refers to a cost effective way of manufacturing AMOLED using inkjet deposition of the electroluminescent materials into their cells. It might also involve roll printing or a similar technique of manufacturing the TFT array at high speed. The general idea is that the volume and speed of the machinery is the key to commercial viability.

Larger size AMOLED products depend on this technology being in place.
 
Thank you Whoisthisreally for a response that the rest of us can understand.
 
monitorrat said:
I could've sworn that both NEC and EIZO say that burn in is not covered.
Click to expand...

Yeah, permanent IR with LCDs is definitely possible, occurs more often than people may think and is not covered by warranty.
 
Last edited:
shankle said:
Obviously I won't live long enough to see a 24" AMOLED monitor sitting on my
desk. Pity....
Click to expand...
There's no need to be so pessimistic. Large screen OLED is coming in the next few years. Do you expect to die before 2013?
 
Snowdog said:
Meaningless FUD.

Back it up.
Click to expand...

It's not a fud


Active matrix LCDs function by holding charge for certain period time. When overdriven, greater stress is applied to the capacitor and the transistor. Over stressing the liquid could also damage its structure. F-LCD will addresses the issues, but I haven't heard anything new regarding its progress.

Most cases, the effect is not permanent static burn (as one would witness on PDP and CRT), but rather accelerate form of IR. For an example, if you display a black object in a white background for 1 second, it will take a second or two (perhaps more) for the black square to completely disappear.

There's no way to repair it and be best option is to replace the entire panel. The problem is now acknowledged by many manufactures and the majority of recent LCDs are fitted with anti-burn feature.
 
Snowdog said:
"Some say that simply turning off the display for 24-48 hours eliminates the effect, while others have claimed the effect is permanent in extreme cases. Nonetheless, home users of LCD televisions have little to fear."

Those links only speculate about permanent LCD image persistence.
Click to expand...

Thank you for selectively reading those links. Ever actually seen LCDs used at airplanes or such used to display mostly static images 24/7? Once turned off you can see that they have horrible burn-in, with the layout of the announcement grid and everything being clearly visible.
 
Elledan said:
Thank you for selectively reading those links. Ever actually seen LCDs used at airplanes or such used to display mostly static images 24/7? Once turned off you can see that they have horrible burn-in, with the layout of the announcement grid and everything being clearly visible.
Click to expand...


That is true, it is certainly possible. While I have seen permanent burn in on CRT, plasma, and LCD displays, it is very rarely an issue for the vast majority of home users on a LCD. We just don't leave a departure/arrival grid, or the like, up 24/7 at the house.
 
Elledan said:
Thank you for selectively reading those links. Ever actually seen LCDs used at airplanes or such used to display mostly static images 24/7? Once turned off you can see that they have horrible burn-in, with the layout of the announcement grid and everything being clearly visible.
Click to expand...

No, actually. I have seen it on Plasmas in airports, but never on LCDs. Not sure why they used Plasmas, maybe they were cheaper and larger before LCDs, but there you go. The LCDs in SeaTac, which I was just at, had no burnin I could see.

At work, I've not witnessed any burn in and we have LCDs that display the same thing 24/7 (nagios monitoring and such).

I'm not saying it is impossible, but I'm saying I've never seen it. I do computer support for a living, so I see a lot of LCDs too. Never seen one burned in. Ever. Period. I have gotten older ones to temporarily retain a bit of a ghost image (very slight, hard to see) but it goes away if they are shut down for awhile. Newer ones I have not witnessed image retention at all, even on a temporary basis.
 
Sycraft said:
I'm not saying it is impossible, but I'm saying I've never seen it. I do computer support for a living, so I see a lot of LCDs too. Never seen one burned in. Ever. Period. I have gotten older ones to temporarily retain a bit of a ghost image (very slight, hard to see) but it goes away if they are shut down for awhile. Newer ones I have not witnessed image retention at all, even on a temporary basis.
Click to expand...

Oh, I'm not saying that permanent LCD IR is easy to accomplish, just that it isn't as unlikely as some people suggest. It was easier in the past as well, and it's probably easier to accomplish on cheap LCDs nowadays. They may have added some tricks in the display firmware to prevent IR as well, as they do with PDP (never seen IR with the PDP downstairs since we got it, and we abuse it a lot).

Drive voltage for the crystals would play a big role, just as it does with OLED IR. IR with CRTs has been virtually solved as well. It just takes a few generations to shake out the worst bugs :)
 
Never seen it on cheap ones either. We have lots at work, and the stuff we use for information display is just cheap TNs. Still no IR at all period, never mind burnin.

As I said, if you saw it bad at an airport, it was probably a Plasma. A number of airports used them in the past (not sure if they do now). I encountered that in Calgary a badly burned display and I checked it out to see what it was, and it was a plasma. That was damn near a decade ago, they've likely long since replaced it.

However I've never seen it on an LCD and indeed can't think how it is possible. Burn in happens because the subpixels decay on emmissive displays when used. So use them in one pattern, you'll wear down some before others. However LCDs don't do that, they just block a backlight, which does wear down but since it is the whole light it is even wear. I cannot see how you would burn one in.

What it really comes down to is if it is possible, it is way outside the ability of any normal use. As noted LCDs come with no warnings whatsoever about burn in and not displaying static images. On the contrary, many are made for that precise purpose.

Some other devices do, and there's probably a reason. Doesn't mean they are unusable for computers, but it does mean you may need to be careful.

As I said earlier in the thread, when I got a TV, Crutchfield warned me off Plasma since I would be using a computer with it sometimes. Maybe they were being a bit over cautious, but it probably didn't come out of nowhere. They've a bit of experience in the market and a reason to try and sell you what works.
 
Sycraft said:
However I've never seen it on an LCD and indeed can't think how it is possible. Burn in happens because the subpixels decay on emmissive displays when used. So use them in one pattern, you'll wear down some before others. However LCDs don't do that, they just block a backlight, which does wear down but since it is the whole light it is even wear. I cannot see how you would burn one in.
Click to expand...
With LCDs there is no phosphor layer which can get damaged, true. What can happen is that since LCDs function on the distorting of the shape of a crystal (mechanical motion) in order to block/let through light, the matrix of the crystal can get damaged due to excessive stresses, causing the matrix to reorder itself into that position, causing image retention. Remember what happens when you take a thin piece of metal and bend it a bit? It'll flex back, but if you bend it further, it will get stuck in that position. That's basically what happens. Stuck/dead pixels are an extreme example of this.

What it really comes down to is if it is possible, it is way outside the ability of any normal use. As noted LCDs come with no warnings whatsoever about burn in and not displaying static images. On the contrary, many are made for that precise purpose.
Click to expand...
I have to admit that I haven't seen it occur on any LCD I have seen being used in office or home settings. I have seen it occur on those used at airports, though, and I have people report it happening after displaying the Windows desktop for a week straight. Temporary IR is quite common.

As I said earlier in the thread, when I got a TV, Crutchfield warned me off Plasma since I would be using a computer with it sometimes. Maybe they were being a bit over cautious, but it probably didn't come out of nowhere. They've a bit of experience in the market and a reason to try and sell you what works.
Click to expand...

PDPs can have good resistance against burn-in or less so. Panasonic PDPs in particular have a lot of measures to prevent burn-in. In theory you can let it display a static image for a few weeks 24/7 and you'll maybe have some temporary IR. I have heard of people doing this by accident (going on vacation, leaving the TV on), without any harmful effects. Pixel orbiting is one technique Panasonic uses.
 
Elledan said:
With LCDs there is no phosphor layer which can get damaged, true. What can happen is that since LCDs function on the distorting of the shape of a crystal (mechanical motion) in order to block/let through light, the matrix of the crystal can get damaged due to excessive stresses, causing the matrix to reorder itself into that position, causing image retention. Remember what happens when you take a thin piece of metal and bend it a bit? It'll flex back, but if you bend it further, it will get stuck in that position. That's basically what happens. Stuck/dead pixels are an extreme example of this.
Click to expand...

This doesn't make sense. Conventional LCDs modulate light by rotating the alignment of the LC material. There might be elastic energy in this reorientation, but I don't think the term shape or distortion applies.

LCD image retention is electrode related as far as I can tell.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
This doesn't make sense. Conventional LCDs modulate light by rotating the alignment of the LC material. There might be elastic energy in this reorientation, but I don't think the term shape or distortion applies.

LCD image retention is electrode related as far as I can tell.
Click to expand...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LCD#Twisted_nematic_.28TN.29

Twisted Nematic (TN) panels are called this way because the LCs are twisted and untwisted. Other LCD types are modifications of this basic principle.
 
Nielo TM said:
It's not a fud
Active matrix LCDs function by holding charge for certain period time. When overdriven, greater stress is applied to the capacitor and the transistor. Over stressing the liquid could also damage its structure.
.
Click to expand...

It is FUD to suggest it is anything more than a remotest of remote events.

It is misdirection to bring up LCD burn in, into the OLED debate by saying LCD can burn in too, like there is any kind of equivalence. That is disingenuous. It is like discussing the melting of ice and saying steel can melt too.

Permanent LCD IR is something even the most display abusing user will likely never see, where OLED will be something that would require constant vigilance to avoid and there is probably nothing that can protect from differential aging.

In this debate about OLED burn in, Permanent LCD IR is nothing but a red herring, even if it exists in some small corner case, it doesn't lead to any kind of real equivalence of issues.
 
In a TN cell the LC material is anchored at the top and bottom of the cell at 90 degrees difference to each other. When voltage is off, light follows the 90 degrees twist and is transmitted. When voltage is turned on, the twist is destroyed and light is not transmitted.

In IPS cells when voltage is off, all of the LC molecules are uniformly oriented parallel to the substrate. This is called an homogeneous alignment. When voltage is turned on, the molecules reorient ~90 degrees in-plane and change the phase of incoming light, allowing it to be transmitted.

In VA cells the LC orientation is perpendicular, or homeotropic. There is no light transmitted in this initial state. When voltage is turned on, the LC molecules begin to tilt between the electrodes and light is transmitted. Single-domain VA has Grey-scale inversion like TN, and Multi-domain VA fixes this by having several domains which cancel each other out off-axis.

:eek: Blue phase cells are for another day.
 
Snowdog said:
It is FUD to suggest it is anything more than a remotest of remote events.

It is misdirection to bring up LCD burn in, into the OLED debate by saying LCD can burn in too, like there is any kind of equivalence. That is disingenuous. It is like discussing the melting of ice and saying steel can melt too.

Permanent LCD IR is something even the most display abusing user will likely never see, where OLED will be something that would require constant vigilance to avoid and there is probably nothing that can protect from differential aging.

In this debate about OLED burn in, Permanent LCD IR is nothing but a red herring, even if it exists in some small corner case, it doesn't lead to any kind of real equivalence of issues.
Click to expand...

Technically, LCDs don't burn (forgot to mention it).


Anyway, all pixels based devices suffer from uneven aging. ATM, LCDs are much more resilient than OLED, but that may change.

After all, it's now extremely difficult to burn-in NeoPDP and Kuro 9G.
 
Whoisthisreally said:
In a TN cell the LC material is anchored at the top and bottom of the cell at 90 degrees difference to each other. When voltage is off, light follows the 90 degrees twist and is transmitted. When voltage is turned on, the twist is destroyed and light is not transmitted.

In IPS cells when voltage is off, all of the LC molecules are uniformly oriented parallel to the substrate. This is called an homogeneous alignment. When voltage is turned on, the molecules reorient ~90 degrees in-plane and change the phase of incoming light, allowing it to be transmitted.

In VA cells the LC orientation is perpendicular, or homeotropic. There is no light transmitted in this initial state. When voltage is turned on, the LC molecules begin to tilt between the electrodes and light is transmitted. Single-domain VA has Grey-scale inversion like TN, and Multi-domain VA fixes this by having several domains which cancel each other out off-axis.

:eek: Blue phase cells are for another day.
Click to expand...

Please do tell

But how is BP advancing in comparison OLED? I can't get any word from Samsung engineers
 
Nielo TM said:
Please do tell

But how is BP advancing in comparison OLED? I can't get any word from Samsung engineers
Click to expand...

I think what he meant was that BP isn't out yet, and isn't coming out right away, hence "For another day."

More or less what you see is what you got for display technologies for the near future. There are other technologies on the horizon, which hopefully will be better. However there's no expected date on them, and even if they start coming to market they are very new and preliminary and as such are likley to be expensive and perhaps have other limitations.

So for now, if you want a display, you have to deal with what is on the market.
 
Is this really hardforum?
There have been lots of reports of LCD burn-in on this forum alone. I specifically remember (I'm on a slow connection, can't look it up) a guy that bought a brand new apple 30" LCD (back in the days when 30" was a rare sight even on sites such as hardforum) that got burn in issues within the first hours of use.

I've seen bad burn-ins on a few LCDs. Probably about as many as I've seen in CRTs. The risks of burn-in in late CRTs wasn't great either, at an old job CRTs were running 24/7 (even over the weekends) showing static images and there was no hint of burn in there either - burn in with CRTs was much more an issue with TVs rather than computer monitors.

There's a dell monitor at school which suffers badly from permanent burn in and a friend with a *VA panel have starting to get temporary issues as well. All this was a hot topic when *VA panels was first being targeted to gamers, with aggressive overdrive that often prolonged the input lag and increased the risks of burn in.
And permanent LCD burn in sure is permanent.

The discussions I've read about this seems to indicate that heat often is a major factor and with that in mind running displays in portrait might increase the risks since the ventilation often is optimized for running the monitor in landscape.

LCD burn in most certainly exist but it's rare and in no imaginable way comparable to OLED or even plasma.

Although it really sucks that it isn't covered by the warranty. Since it's so rare you might be lucky and get it replaced just for good will - but in most cases you are just out of luck....
 
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