OK, maybe there is something to ARM encroaching on or replacing x86 for many users

[Elledan]

Win8 ARM might just provide the incentive required for proper desktop ARM-based systems to pop up, though. Even if they're just fancy systems to browse the internet and watch videos on. Not expecting to play modern games on an ARM system any time soon here, but if there's anything ARM as an ecosystem is good at it's ubiquitous and cheap

 

[octoberasian]

Win8 ARM might just provide the incentive required for proper desktop ARM-based systems to pop up, though. Even if they're just fancy systems to browse the internet and watch videos on. Not expecting to play modern games on an ARM system any time soon here, but if there's anything ARM as an ecosystem is good at it's ubiquitous and cheap

It got me thinking:

Take those mobile games on those smartphones, add Win 8 ARM, add Office 15 (or whatever), put it in a slim monitor with a wireless keyboard and touch screen interface, give it an internet connection... and you got yourself a small, efficient computer for home and office use.

It'd probably give Chrome OS competition and make Intel and AMD work harder at making smaller, more power efficient CPUs that's on par with ARM-based CPUs. Does VIA even count nowadays? They're the only other x86 CPU manufacturer I can think of that has low-powered x86 CPUs but it's almost as comparable to Atom and AMD's 350-series.

 

[Elledan]

VIA made a tiny splash with their Nano CPU design a while ago, but I haven't seen any examples of them pop up in the wild so far. Probably more of an OEM CPU at best.

 

[Yossarian22]

That doesn't mean you can write Win32 Apps for Win8ARM machines.

It also doesn't mean that just because WinRT is calling Win32 today, that it always will.

Win8ARM machines will essentially be Metro machines, wether or not there is an accessible Win32 Desktop environment. In practice it will be somewhere between non existent and negligible.

Well, yeah, obviously.
At the end of the day, Microsoft will have a documented API for the new functionality regardless of the answer. I'm not sure of the inherent benefits of running Win8 on ARM with the assumption that most ARM devices are going to be mobile.

Working with the documentation Microsoft provides within the last couple of days, I have to say it is documented well. Not as well as Java's Javadocs but pretty easy-peasy.

 

[heatlesssun]

Working with the documentation Microsoft provides within the last couple of days, I have to say it is documented well. Not as well as Java's Javadocs but pretty easy-peasy.

The WinRT is not even a released product how old now? No it's not as well as Java which is 15 years old.

I've been spending a lot of time learning Metro and I say what one will of Microsoft's products, their development tools are outstanding these days. Microsoft has pretty much nailed the development tools for creating Metro apps. It leverages the skills of existing Microsoft platform developers and it offers the same to web developers via CSS and JavaScript. The quality and smart leveraging of developers current skill sets is the key reason why there 40,000 apps available for Windows Phone 7, it's certainly not because of market share.

There are 4 key things that I expect to happen in January with Windows 8:

1: The beta will be released
2: Office 15 and the Metro Office will be released or announced
3: The Windows Store will open in beta
4: ARM and x86 tablets and possibly other form factors running Windows 8 beta that will be upgradeable to the RTM version will be sold or otherwise become available to the general public.

Some clarifications. I'm not sure how Office 15 will deal with Metro, whether we're looking at a separate package or add-on or what. Also not sure if the apps in the beta store will be free or not.

 

[Stoly]

The WinRT is not even a released product how old now? No it's not as well as Java which is 15 years old.

I've been spending a lot of time learning Metro and I say what one will of Microsoft's products, their development tools are outstanding these days. Microsoft has pretty much nailed the development tools for creating Metro apps. It leverages the skills of existing Microsoft platform developers and it offers the same to web developers via CSS and JavaScript. The quality and smart leveraging of developers current skill sets is the key reason why there 40,000 apps available for Windows Phone 7, it's certainly not because of market share.

There are 4 key things that I expect to happen in January with Windows 8:

1: The beta will be released
2: Office 15 and the Metro Office will be released or announced
3: The Windows Store will open in beta
4: ARM and x86 tablets and possibly other form factors running Windows 8 beta that will be upgradeable to the RTM version will be sold or otherwise become available to the general public.

Some clarifications. I'm not sure how Office 15 will deal with Metro, whether we're looking at a separate package or add-on or what. Also not sure if the apps in the beta store will be free or not.

4. Very unlikely, I don't think we'll see any tablet or netbook/nettop with windows 8 until its done.

I do think a windows 8 ARM beta may be installable on some ICS compatible tablets, mainly tegra2/3 based.

 

[heatlesssun]

4. Very unlikely, I don't think we'll see any tablet or netbook/nettop with windows 8 until its done.

I do think a windows 8 ARM beta may be installable on some ICS compatible tablets, mainly tegra2/3 based.

The reason why this makes since is that developers will need ARM devices before Windows 8 is launched to get apps into the Windows Store, at least to test with. I don't see how Windows 8 can go through beta without ARM devices avilable somehow to developers before RTM. In fact there's been a couple of leaks that Nokia might have Windows 8 ARM RTM devices by summer.

 

[Stoly]

The reason why this makes since is that developers will need ARM devices before Windows 8 is launched to get apps into the Windows Store, at least to test with. I don't see how Windows 8 can go through beta without ARM devices avilable somehow to developers before RTM. In fact there's been a couple of leaks that Nokia might have Windows 8 ARM RTM devices by summer.

Sure developers will have access to Win 8 ARM compatible devices for testing (and probably are by now) but not the general public.

 

[heatlesssun]

Sure developers will have access to Win 8 ARM compatible devices for testing (and probably are by now) but not the general public.

I kind of see it like the Samsung Series 7 Slate. That device was really made for Windows 8 but Samsung tweaked and created a Windows 7 machine and Samsung will support it for Windows 8. Even running just the beta they would sell in tens of thousands.

Plenty of small and independent developers would buy them as long as they were upgradeable to the RTM version.

 

[Yossarian22]

Or Debian.

 

[Stoly]

I kind of see it like the Samsung Series 7 Slate. That device was really made for Windows 8 but Samsung tweaked and created a Windows 7 machine and Samsung will support it for Windows 8. Even running just the beta they would sell in tens of thousands.

Plenty of small and independent developers would buy them as long as they were upgradeable to the RTM version.

I kind of have doubts of M$ selling windows 8 ARM by itself. I think they will only release it for OEMs pre-installed on arm devices.

 

[jeremyshaw]

The WinRT is not even a released product how old now? No it's not as well as Java which is 15 years old.

I've been spending a lot of time learning Metro and I say what one will of Microsoft's products, their development tools are outstanding these days. Microsoft has pretty much nailed the development tools for creating Metro apps. It leverages the skills of existing Microsoft platform developers and it offers the same to web developers via CSS and JavaScript. The quality and smart leveraging of developers current skill sets is the key reason why there 40,000 apps available for Windows Phone 7, it's certainly not because of market share.

There are 4 key things that I expect to happen in January with Windows 8:

1: The beta will be released
2: Office 15 and the Metro Office will be released or announced
3: The Windows Store will open in beta
4: ARM and x86 tablets and possibly other form factors running Windows 8 beta that will be upgradeable to the RTM version will be sold or otherwise become available to the general public.

Some clarifications. I'm not sure how Office 15 will deal with Metro, whether we're looking at a separate package or add-on or what. Also not sure if the apps in the beta store will be free or not.

Fully concur with you. Attended a wp7 dev camp recently, and was very impressed with ms' serious push - this isn't some halfhearted attempt for wp7, and I expect win8ARM to be just as well supported.

 

[jeremyshaw]

Sorry, typing from phone, message may not be clearly worded above.

 

[heatlesssun]

I kind of have doubts of M$ selling windows 8 ARM by itself. I think they will only release it for OEMs pre-installed on arm devices.

Totally agree and it's part of the reason why I think Windows 8 ARM machines will be available with the beta. This was a rumor that Paul Thurrott and Mary Jo Foley had bought up a while back and it made a lot of sense to me as 1) developers are going to need ARM machines before Windows 8 launches and 2) plenty of developers will buy them as long as they are guaranteed to be upgradeable to the RTM version.

 

[heatlesssun]

Fully concur with you. Attended a wp7 dev camp recently, and was very impressed with ms' serious push - this isn't some halfhearted attempt for wp7, and I expect win8ARM to be just as well supported.

I'd signed up to go go to one of these but had to cancel because my work bipedal wouldn't permit, how was it?

 

[Yossarian22]

I kind of have doubts of M$ selling windows 8 ARM by itself. I think they will only release it for OEMs pre-installed on arm devices.

Well, that's how they swept the PC market, so wouldn't be surprising...

Although if there is one solid fact, it is that Microsoft sucks at advertising.

The only discussion that Windows has in regards to ARM is how they really have the clout when it comes to x86... so they really could bring the industry magnifying glass on ARM and RISC and put it in the spotlight.

But besides that, there is no reason not to go GNU/Linux (unless you have an aversion to technical stuff -- but as I understand it there are distros for mobile).

And historically we know the only thing that is keeping that back is hardware support...

So Microsoft needs to bribe hardware manufacturers to win in mobile sector? That's the conclusion I reach, anyway.

 

[Digital Viper-X-]

Well, that's how they swept the PC market, so wouldn't be surprising...

Although if there is one solid fact, it is that Microsoft sucks at advertising.

The only discussion that Windows has in regards to ARM is how they really have the clout when it comes to x86... so they really could bring the industry magnifying glass on ARM and RISC and put it in the spotlight.

But besides that, there is no reason not to go GNU/Linux (unless you have an aversion to technical stuff -- but as I understand it there are distros for mobile).

And historically we know the only thing that is keeping that back is hardware support...

So Microsoft needs to bribe hardware manufacturers to win in mobile sector? That's the conclusion I reach, anyway.

Since wehn does MS need to advertise? 99% of the users who use tablets have no idea what ARM or x86 is. Hw vendors will line up to install win8 on the tablets, why wouldn't they? extra sales, increasing the options to the users, and win 8 will be a valid replacement for your laptop at home when you can do everything on the tablet that you cold previously do on your laptop.

 

[heatlesssun]

Since wehn does MS need to advertise? 99% of the users who use tablets have no idea what ARM or x86 is. Hw vendors will line up to install win8 on the tablets, why wouldn't they? extra sales, increasing the options to the users, and win 8 will be a valid replacement for your laptop at home when you can do everything on the tablet that you cold previously do on your laptop.

Initially however ARM devices won't replace your laptop as they will only run Metro apps. When it comes to x86 tablets, Intel seems to be stressing the idea that x86 tablets running Windows 8 will off the bat be able to replace a laptop and also function as a media tablet.

Of course long term Microsoft will want as many Metro apps as can write so that ARM devices can be more capable.

 

[rudy]

I kind of have doubts of M$ selling windows 8 ARM by itself. I think they will only release it for OEMs pre-installed on arm devices.

See I see this exactly the opposite. M$ had a huge problem when netbooks came out. They were sared by linux. They had to offer windows at a much reduced price to compete. The problem as all people notice is that all windows versions are the same minus a feature or two and that is stupid. ARM will finally allow M$ to make a really different low cost version of windows that no one can buy and just use as the full version. For the time being no one is going to be running big games and important productivity on arm based devices. So M$ can keep a higher priced sku as x86 and an ARM based sku might replace what we now know of as starter.

And if they make this work well enough that it can install on lots of devices I am sure M$ will have no problem watching people buy say a $20 version of windows to replace android then selling them office.

 

[Red Falcon]

Intel seems to be stressing the idea that x86 tablets running Windows 8 will off the bat be able to replace a laptop and also function as a media tablet.

If it's anything like that crappy Atom-powered x86 phone they released, no, they so will not replace anything.

 

[Shurane]

The only place I can think of where ASM is used often or in brief spurts are video game consoles. You can probably trace it as far back as maybe the NES system and probably earlier to Atari. And, I'm sure some ASM is used in current DS, 3DS, PSP, Wii, 360 and PS3 titles.

A lot of the reasons behind it is because:

a.) You're working with one very specific hardware spec so there is no worry that ASM will break on another console. Can't program entirely in ASM on PC unless everyone uses the same very specific hardware. It helps a lot as another person mentioned above in stuff like video encoding when you want to accelerate encoding speeds using multimedia extensions like SSE or MMX-- something that is commonplace in every x86 processor.

b.) It allows for some game code as someone mentioned above to be optimized. If I can remember, I believe a few games had ASM code to enhance something like data transfer or get direct access to the graphics chip or similar to enhance certain functionality in the game. It was something so specific that a higher level language can't do optimally.​

To give you a very good example: When a game has specific hardware code programmed into it, video game emulators would have to include code specifically for those lines of code to run well in the emulator. You can open up something like ePSXe and look at the various options for specific games that were needed just to run a single game.

Outside gaming consoles, very, very few applications are programmed in ASM unless they are embedded systems, BIOS, or the like. Majority of the applications today are programmed in a high level compiler like C, C++, C# or similar.



The only thing I can think of is this:
http://www.xda-developers.com/windows-mobile/guide-installing-windows-8-on-the-htc-shift/

I am unsure if Microsoft ever released a Beta or Alpha of Windows 8 ARM yet. I don't think the Dev Preview has the ARM compatible code in it either, or we would have been reading posts of people installing Win8 on their Android devices.

It's still weird. Gaming developers are quite constrained by development time. Possibly much more than they are about program efficiency. They would benefit much more from a higher level language with certain core operations that they would have to drop down into Assembly for. What I'm imagining to be optimum here is certain developers making things like BLAS or LAPACK, which is partially hand-tuned assembly for linear algebra (pretty sure anyway, I'll have to double check to be certain), but can readily used by higher level packages like GNU Scientific Library and NumPy.

Higher level languages allow you to rewrite and scratch code much more easily than any assembly languages. This is great for experimentation.

But the gaming industry likes to shoot itself in the foot. That's why they (mostly) restrain themselves to using C++, unless the platform requires otherwise (Heh, Objective-C on iOS, Java on Android).