NVIDIA's SLI Shortchanges Gamers?

FrgMstr

FrgMstr

Just Plain Mean
Staff member
2FA
Joined
May 18, 1997
Messages
58,550
NVIDIA's SLI Shortchanges Gamers? : According to NVIDIA’s marketing, NVIDIA’s Scalable Link Interface (SLI) "can deliver as much as 2x the performance of a single GPU configuration for unparalleled gaming experiences." What NVIDIA fails to make clear, however, is that SLI currently requires NVIDIA to write driver profiles for each game to support SLI. Are all the games you want to play supported?

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NzEx

Please give our editorial a read and share your thoughts in an adult manner.
 
So all you guys that have SLi now, get cracking! I get mine in 45 days (slowboat from Voodoo) and let us know how certain apps work when forced!
 
I am too a little aggravated by the SLI marketing, and lack of current games that support it. I do believe that there will get more and more games to use it, but if you dont play one that is supported.. its really a waste. Why isnt Vampire working, when HL2 does, are they not on the same engine?

Its also my understanding that it doesnt work with widescreen monitors. That is a HUGE problem for me, as I am using one. That, and the fact that all highend PCI-E cards from ATi/NV are rare, and priced way too high. Those three issues to me, do not make SLI worth it, for now.
 
What bothers me the most is that nVidia is limiting us (SLI boards only, etc)

Sure the profiles are going to be annoying maybe, but I think they can be worked around..


Really, whats next.. disabling SLI support in their drivers for VIA boards?
 
fallguy said:
That, and the fact that all highend PCI-E cards from ATi/NV are rare, and priced way too high.
Click to expand...

No, they are priced too high for your liking. The fact that they are so scare on the ground shows that they are priced at the correct MARKET price, or possibly even below the correct market price for the current supply available.
 
fallguy said:
Its also my understanding that it doesnt work with widescreen monitors.
Click to expand...

Could you point me to where you heard/read that? This is of great concern to me, as well, though it doesn't make a lot of sense....
 
dgb said:
No, they are priced too high for your liking. The fact that they are so scare on the ground shows that they are priced at the correct MARKET price, or possibly even below the correct market price for the current supply available.
Click to expand...

I said overpriced, because they are over MSRP. That makes them overpriced. Sure people will buy them, I am not one of these people.

ECM said:
Could you point me to where you heard/read that? This is of great concern to me, as well, though it doesn't make a lot of sense....
Click to expand...

There were a few threads about it posted here. Try searching for them, it sure scared me away.

edit, here is one of the few; http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=849164&highlight=widescreen
 
It's an editorial, so it's good that it was to the point...

NVIDIA had better be busting their asses. They should probably take the additional step of forcing AFR for games with no profile (user-created or otherwise) then when zillions of bug reports come in for certain games, they'll know to switch to SFR. And editing XML files is pretty archaic, they need a frontend for it pronto....
 
my opinion has always been this. until we see some crazy CPU horsepower, dual core set-ups maybe, its just not worth the cost for the amount of benefit you recieve. not right now anyway. maybe things will change.
 
Mister E said:
my opinion has always been this. until we see some crazy CPU horsepower, dual core set-ups maybe, its just not worth the cost for the amount of benefit you recieve. not right now anyway. maybe things will change.
Click to expand...
Also, it would have been nice if far cry's hdr benefited from it.
 
fallguy said:
I said overpriced, because they are over MSRP. That makes them overpriced. Sure people will buy them, I am not one of these people.
Click to expand...

So your telling me if they adjusted the MSRP up to the average retail price there would be no bitching over the price?? Let's get a bit of a grip on reality please :rolleyes: .

The only fair way of guaging wheter something is overpriced is to look at if the market is clearing. The market here is more than clearing, it's not overpriced. An arbitrary MSRP does not provide any measure of how overpriced somethign is.
 
dgb said:
So your telling me if they adjusted the MSRP up to the average retail price there would be no bitching over the price?? Let's get a bit of a grip on reality please :rolleyes: .

The only fair way of guaging wheter something is overpriced is to look at if the market is clearing. The market here is more than clearing, it's not overpriced. An arbitrary MSRP does not provide any measure of how overpriced somethign is.
Click to expand...

He said discuss in an adult manner.. rolling eyes, and acting like you are sure isnt that.

Its overpriced to me, and to many others as well. Paying $200+ over MSRP is something I will not do. Which is why its a deterrent for going SLI. The price is far from matching the performace gain, as of right now. This isnt the place to argue over this, though. Im leaving it at that.
 
There are 2 major problems, 1 brought up by the editorial, 1 not.

the first is : people who have a high end SLI setup paid at least 2x400 for 2x6800GT + 200 for an SLI mobo... and yet, they still have to create their own profiles ?!?!?!?!

the second is : all those people buying 2 6600GTs for the performance of a 6800GT... really dont get it in every game (even tho they ARE paying the same price...).

this could get messy. wait and see... :cool:
 
LyCoS said:
There are 2 major problems, 1 brought up by the editorial, 1 not.

the first is : people who have a high end SLI setup paid at least 2x400 for 2x6800GT + 200 for an SLI mobo... and yet, they still have to create their own profiles ?!?!?!?!

the second is : all those people buying 2 6600GTs for the performance of a 6800GT... really dont get it in every game (even tho they ARE paying the same price...).

this could get messy. wait and see... :cool:
Click to expand...

I see no reason for buying two 6600s now. Hell, if you can afford them, buy the 6800GT and wait till filling the second PCIE for later. That said, SLI is a great way to upgrade over time....but not at once on the low end of the cards though.
 
On all current games, a single high end card will work fine.
Nvidia will be concentrating on making all new games sli compatible.
therefore it doesn't matter, as the games that will make great use of sli will be sli compatible by then, and they are constantly making games sli compatible in driver updates
f
 
I have to say I'm a bit surprised that nVidia have been so slow to get going on this. SLI is nVidia's Ferrari product - it's got to be seen to be hugely desirable (though in this case also attainable) and the 'feel good' will filter to the rest of the nVidia range. I'd have thought they'd have churned out a big database of profiles of all medium selling+ games of 2004 onwards by now.

On the other hand shortchanging? I don't know about that - those buying SLI are very likely to know the shortcomings in terms of missing driver support. And who better to be guinea pig for new technology than a minority of hardware enthusiasts who will maybe overlook a few teething troubles because of the 1600x1200 4xaa 8xaf in Doom 3 factor?
 
I am quite frankly thrilled with sli. I am currently playing the big three and I am confident Nvidia will step to the plate regarding drivers. They have too much to loose. I just finished my setup and its was relatively painless. SLI is as advertised and I cant wait to step up to even more powerfull video cards once they become available.

Some people blow money at the casino and think nothing of it. I have spent a day at the casino's worth of money on a platform with an upgrade path and I am having a ball.
 
I just have to ask this, maybe Kyle or Brent can find out from nVidia for me...

Is there a technical reason why they are "re-inventing" the wheel with SLI?

I thought nVidia purchased the technology from 3dfx? Why are they not using the true SLI , scan line interleaving, instead of this scalable link interface stuff? All games worked with my Voodoo 2's right out of the box.

Is the 3dfx technology just not fast enough for todays graphics? I mean, WTF is nVidia going to do with the 3fdfx technology they purchased.

Brent
 
Thats an interesting question but I fail to see what all the fuss is about. A sinlge GT will handle all the current and past games handily. I went Sli just to play with it and specifically for the most current and future games. I dont care if there is no profile for a 2 year old game that will run just fine on one card. I need a rig that will run 1650 x 1080 with everything up full on the newest games . 6800gt or Ultra SLI will do that for me.
 
It's marketing hype. I read many messages from people who are buying the Asus A8N and putting a 3000+ in it with 2 6600s. What are they thinking, and like Kyle said, why put 2 6600s in it from the start? The whole idea behind SLI is to upgrade in the future.
I tell these people to stay with an Nforce3 board, and a 6800GT OC or 6800 Ultra OC.

If you read the OC forums out there, you'll find that the A8N is not an OC dream, and needs a bios update. So besides the driver issue, the same can be said for the hardware.
 
Not only are they short changing us - they are also overcharging us. There's only one reason that SLI was created - to generate more revenue. "Hey, lets make it so a person would have a need to buy TWO overpriced cards" Seems like they could have had the ex 3dfx engineers help them simply create dual GPU cards. :0

It just doesn't seem worth it to me. Once I make the jump to PCI-E - I don't think I will have SLI on my mind. I think in my computer youth - I would be getting excited about SLI - to go along with my dual fans my dual HDD's dual Optical drives dual blow holes and dual cpus. Those days are gone for me, I like it simple yet fast nowdays. I'd rather pay $400 for a single card that performs excelent at all games than $800 on a dual card setup that seemingly only lets me crank it up "one notch". (well I would rather NOT pay $400 but you get what I mean ;) ).
 
I understand that any new technology takes time to develop. When multicore processors hit the market later this year, it will not be at all surprising to learn that the majority of programs and games we use today will recieve no immediate performance benefit. The question is how much time is needed, sure there are alot of games for Nvidia to write drivers for, but leaving the SLI user in the dark, guessing if the game they play will be supported is becoming common practice for Nvidia. Nvidia's all to framiliar response seems to be "We are working on it." Simply not good enough!

What about support for the majority of Nvidia users not using SLI. ATI's driver team has already released two new driver sets that increase performance in Half Life 2. What is Nvidia saying to the majority of thier buisness? If you don't upgrade to SLI this game will not run any faster. :mad:
 
brent_anderson said:
I just have to ask this, maybe Kyle or Brent can find out from nVidia for me...

Is there a technical reason why they are "re-inventing" the wheel with SLI? Why are they not using the true SLI , scan line interleaving, instead of this scalable link interface stuff?
Click to expand...

If you can get it to work, the new SLI's load-balancing utilizes the available GPU power and bandwidth more efficiently than the simple SLI of the past.

-SEAL
 
I find the best part is that SLI was hyped beyond belief, yet I never read before that it requires profiles for the games. Good thing I didn't sell my A8V and get a 6800GT, or I'd be kicking myself.

(I bought a X800 XT PE thank you very much and I don't have to wait for driver updates to play games) :eek:
 
DandyBear said:
I understand that any new technology takes time to develop. When multicore processors hit the market later this year, it will not be at all surprising to learn that the majority of programs and games we use today will recieve no immediate performance benefit.
Click to expand...

actually all the optimisations where done for hyperthreading. As far as the program is concerned, there is no difference between 2 logical processors, 2 physicall processors, or duall core. therefore the benefit for AMD will be immediat. The benefit for intel will take time (since duall core intel -> 4 logical cores -> needs to be optimized for 4 cores instead of 2 for full efficiency).

but then, processor manufacturers dont optimize programs/drivers. programs optimize for them. So its a different story...
 
Good article, [H] crew.

Here is my 2 cents:
I don't think Nvidia is really going to spend as much time and effort as it would take for them to make their SLI work well everywhere. My reason is this: SLI is not going to amount to jack shit of their profits. Mobo manufacturers are going to throw out 2-8 (guess) boards per mainstream chipset, and 1 or less of these will be SLI capable because they will probably be 2% or less of the total chipset demand.

Remember SLI is a completely Enthusiast type of endeavor as it stands now. nVidia is catering toward the overly loud part of the market that we [H] include ourselves in. Which gives you the bigger bragging rights, extra FPS for your sys in D3/HL2/FC or in Super Bass Fishing 7?

What I am saying here is that Nvida will likely invest only enough time to keep the very most popularly BENCHMARKED (esp.) and played games under its SLI wing. This is because that is where it will see the biggest profit return on the tiny segment of its total sales: us, the enthusiast market.

SLI is more of an interesting technology concept than a currently feasible profit maker for ATI and nVidia in the OEM market, where they make thier margins.

Again just my 1.9999 cents. Please be merciful as I am wearing cotton and nylon.
 
Hi guys,

I was looking though the files included with the nVidia driver and came across one called nvapps.xml.

I looked in this file and it contained definitions for a number of games, including something called 'multichip_rendering_mode'. I'm guessing that this is what rendering mode SLI uses for a particular exe.

I went though the file and organised the games under the rendering mode that they use. The unique values for this multi rendering mode are: 1, 2, 4, 2400401, 2C10401, 2431001, 3C00401, 400001, 4C00002, c00001, 00400001 and 00020201.

All of the review of SLI I have read state there are three modes of SLI:

Alternate Frame Rendering
Split Frame Rendering
Disabled

What I was wondering is if anyone knows why there are so many values for the multi rendering mode, when there are only logically three modes of SLI?

I have coded a basic editor to allow people to add new profiles and modify existing profiles, but I just need to clear up the SLI mode before I release it - presuming that my assumptions are correct and this does relate to SLI :)

1
Aquamark 3
Star Wars Jedi Knight II: Jedi Outcast
Star Wars Jedi Knight Academy
Star Wars: Knight of the Old Republic
Medal of Honor
Quake3
Splinter Cell
Splinter Cell 2
Splinter Cell Shadow Strike
Doom 3
Code Creatures
Serious Sam SE
IL 2 - Sturmovik: Forgotten Battles
Return to Castle Wolfenstien
Warhammer 40k Dawn of War
Conan
Return to Castle Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory
Vampire The Masquerade - Redemption

2
Painkiller
Battlefield Vietnam
Colin McRae Ralley 4 <-- nVidia typo of 'Rally'
Sims 2
Max Payne 2
Unreal 2
Tribes Vengeance
Shadermark 2.1
Battlefield 1942
Battlefield 2
TOCA Race Driver 2
Tron 2.0
Spellforce
AquaNox 2
Shadermark 2.1

4
Flight Sim 2004
Comanche 4
Call of Duty
Call of Duty MultiPlayer
Dungeon Siege
Ground Control 2
Contract Jack
Dark Age of Camelot: Trials of Atlantis
NHL 2005
Prince of Persia
Perimeter
Tiger Woods 2005
Kohan 2
Silent Storm
Star Wars Battlefront
Rome Total War
Need for Speed Underground
Hitman Contracts
MVP Baseball
Madden 2005
Soldiers Heroes of WWII
Joint Operations Typhoon Rising
Leisure Suit Larry
Tony Hawk's Underground
Myst 4
America's Army
Thief 3
EverQuest 2

2400401
3DMark 2005

2C10401
Tomb Raider: Angel of Darkness

2431001
Lock On

3C00401
Half Life 2

400001
PCMark04
3DMark 2003
Unreal
UT 2003
UT 2004
X2: The Threat
Halo
Jedi Academy
Jedi Academy MultiPlayer
Age of Mythology
Armed and Dangerous

4C00002
Far Cry

c00001
3DMark 2001

00400001
HDR Lighting

00020201
Trees of Pangaea
 
I'd say the biggest shortchange for gamers is the lack of available cards. Show me where I can find pci-e 6800 gts for less than $600 and then maybe I'll be able to tell you whether SLI shortchanges me or not. But, for now, its the lack of available cards that's screwing me.

As for why people would buy two 6600s now, they are the only decent available video solution even close to affordable for the nforce4 boards now.
 
Awesome digging there Fuzz!

I see both similarities and vast differences in game engines amongst the 1, 2, and 4. Some of the further listings look like afterthoughts, and others do not. It would be nice to see some more obvious correlation here.
 
STEvil said:
What bothers me the most is that nVidia is limiting us (SLI boards only, etc)

Sure the profiles are going to be annoying maybe, but I think they can be worked around..


Really, whats next.. disabling SLI support in their drivers for VIA boards?
Click to expand...

Alienware offers SLI without using an Nforce board.


I do think this SLI was a marketing scam. Not supporting some of the most popular games out is just stupid. (WoW)
 
djskankho said:
I'd say the biggest shortchange for gamers is the lack of available cards. Show me where I can find pci-e 6800 gts for less than $600 and then maybe I'll be able to tell you whether SLI shortchanges me or not. But, for now, its the lack of available cards that's screwing me.

As for why people would buy two 6600s now, they are the only decent available video solution even close to affordable for the nforce4 boards now.
Click to expand...

Chumbo gets 6800GT's in regularly for $399.
 
fallguy said:
Why isnt Vampire working, when HL2 does, are they not on the same engine?
Click to expand...

To my understanding they have to look at it on a game by game basis. So even if it uses the same game engine the actual game could still work differently with AFR or SFR.
 
Brent_Justice said:
To my understanding they have to look at it on a game by game basis. So even if it uses the same game engine the actual game could still work differently with AFR or SFR.
Click to expand...


Then why in the heck is Nvidia claiming the Unreal Engine 3 will work?
 
Neutraleyes said:
And editing XML files is pretty archaic, they need a frontend for it pronto....
Click to expand...

agreed, i cringe at the thought of a novice going into their system32 folder and mucking around in an XML file
 
freddiepm61 said:
On all current games, a single high end card will work fine.
Nvidia will be concentrating on making all new games sli compatible.
therefore it doesn't matter, as the games that will make great use of sli will be sli compatible by then, and they are constantly making games sli compatible in driver updates
f
Click to expand...

there are games i am playing now that could benefit from SLI
 
As always, good article, [H]

My plan on the whole SLI thing was as follows:

Purchase s754 now and in 1 year do the s939/SLI thingy. This gives me time to
a) judge the need for such a setup --Will my games benefit?
b) allow for the bugs to get worked out -- Mobo and NVidia
c) prepare for the cost -- Mobo and graphics cards are still enthusiast-level pricing


I'm not disuaded from considering SLI in the current year. I've never bought bleeding edge for the listed reasons. I did go s754 2 months ago because my "a)" was not satisfied.

I will judge my "b)" once the technology has matured and mobo manufacturers get bugs worked out, Nvidia to generate profiles for current games and judge their speed at which games get added into the SLI scheme of things. If Nvidia lags behind 3-6 months on newly released games, I will have second thoughts about that solution. My "c)" reason will happen once the bleeding edge stuff slows down and prices and supply stabilize.

I have mixed feelings for enthusiasts who have already put a great deal of cash into their setups so far. On one hand, they should have expected "b)" at this point. With bleeding edge technology you must be prepared for the limitations at the point of introduction. However, PR is a nasty thing and Nvidia has sucked me in, hook line and sinker. I _absolutely lust_ over a high-end SLI rig with all the bells and whistles. However, I'm fortunate that my finances do not allow me to spend that kind of money at this point in time. The persons who are able to spend that kind of money arent as lucky. However, with that level of enthusiasm, I'll bet they are mildly miffed at it rather than totally pissed off. If you can spend that sort of cash on introduction, you can spend cash on the functional replacement.

Which brings me to my "c)". SLI (in my mind) was touted as build now, expand later when costs are down and you need the performance for a now dated system. My games run fine on a 6800gt. I'll be stuck in 12 months when it doesnt do all that hot, but if I had SLI, I'm sure that in 12 months Nvidia will catch up on support for current and future games. Also the prices and supply should be worked out to better suit the market. In 12 months (I'm throwing that date out) I'll have to spend $1000 (throwing out the price) for mobo + vid card + vid card where the SLI early adopter will have to spend $300 for vid card.



In my mind, SLI is doing what is promised. I'll worry about it when I need to. In the meantime, I'm going to be judging the Nvidia implementation as a whole, by keeping their profile updates in-line with current games.

Who got hurt? Early adopters. But hey, its partially their own fault if they complain. With new technologies come new hurdles. Nvidia's PR is great. They make me drool over it. When I calmly and rationaly weigh the benefits and look through the hype, I think it will work out. It will just take time. Hype is hype, just ignore it for 6 months and look at it again.
 
"AFR might be the optimal choice in one game, while AFR might be the optimal choice in a different game"

typo
 
brent_anderson said:
I just have to ask this, maybe Kyle or Brent can find out from nVidia for me...

Is there a technical reason why they are "re-inventing" the wheel with SLI?

I thought nVidia purchased the technology from 3dfx? Why are they not using the true SLI , scan line interleaving, instead of this scalable link interface stuff? All games worked with my Voodoo 2's right out of the box.

Is the 3dfx technology just not fast enough for todays graphics? I mean, WTF is nVidia going to do with the 3fdfx technology they purchased.

Brent
Click to expand...

define "true" SLI?

there is no right or wrong way to double cards up to increase performance

3dfx had their method, it worked for them

NVIDIA has their method
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top