nvidia is making a desktop cpu

[TomGreen321]

Let this sink in for minute: Majority, if not all, smartphones and tablets on the market TODAY are on an ARM-based CPU, from Android-run smartphones to iPhones and iPads and Blackberry Playbooks, etc.

Ok, now think about this: Tegra 2-- ARM plus Nvidia GPU meant for smartphones (maybe), netbooks, and tablets.

Now combine both with Microsoft's announcement of an ARM-compatible version of Windows 8 with better tablet and multi-touch features.

Nvidia is pretty much attacking AMD (Fusion APU) and Intel (Atom) from both ends of the mobile and portable market-- CPU and GPU for smartphones and tablets. It's going to be interesting to see what develops out of this.

How are they attacking? They are just getting into another segment of the market. This isn't surprising at all. They have no choice to go with ARM.

I don't really see what the big deal about this announcement is.

 

[Yakk]

I don't really see what the big deal about this announcement is.

Same here, everyone knew they had to do something or else slowly get pushed out as the market evolved. So this is what nvidia "chose" (saying chose very lightly here).

Nothing too exiting for me.

Y.

Oh and another PR line.... The desktop is dead.....

 

[drakken]

There is also the twist that cuda can with the new gpu compiler do c code, or something like that. So with the arm doing the general pupose tasks and the gpu acting as a massive array of computation units it could be a very interesting chip as that is exactly what Intel was talking about in a future cpu. The biggest problem they will run into is designing a decent transport on their own motherboards.

 

[MrGuvernment]

So if the GPU starts to take over what the CPU does, how hard could that affect game performance, if true, since now the card isn't solely dedicated to doing visuals but also the back end work on processing the game code...

 

[dook43]

.NET is platform independent, as it's compiled down to bytecode like Java is, then JIT compiled (only once) as code is about to be executed. The problem with that is even commercial .NET software often calls down to native code. If Windows 8 starts to adopt an App type of concept (of course not throwing away backwards compatibility that makes it popular), more strict .NET only use could make an application compatible with both x86 (32-bit and 64-bit) and ARM (32-bit and in 2 years likely also 64-bit). MS *is* making a Windows app store, so the idea is not far fetched. Then there's the possibility that developers may just compile native apps, making ARM apps incompatible with x86 and vice versa.

The .Net Framework does not yet abstract several important things that need to be done for a proper windows application to run well.

However, the "native code" we are calling is just thunks out to the Windows API. The .exes will have to be recompiled, but that's all.

 

[Yakk]

So if the GPU starts to take over what the CPU does, how hard could that affect game performance, if true, since now the card isn't solely dedicated to doing visuals but also the back end work on processing the game code...

This would probably where a chip like an APU/Fusion (Not really sandy bridge as far as I can tell) chip can come in. The on-chip GPU can handle the parralel tasks, leaving the discrete GPU to handle graphics.

Nvidia must be keenly aware of this but a little behind. Right now I believe cuda/fermi can only handle 1 program accessing the GPU at a time. Ati's new Developer kit has functions for multiple programs to access the GPU with multiple kernal calls simultaniously. I'm still reading up on this, but the last part is VERY interresting to programmers.

Now back to on-topic ARM discussion...

Y.

 

[pxc]

The .Net Framework does not yet abstract several important things that need to be done for a proper windows application to run well.

However, the "native code" we are calling is just thunks out to the Windows API. The .exes will have to be recompiled, but that's all.

Writing pure .NET applications is possible, and "well" is subjective. If the competition is the typical type of "apps" available on Android and iOS, .NET is perfectly fine for user apps on ARM. For full blown commercial grade apps, yeah .NET isn't ideal.

Native code can also come in the form of libraries compiled outside of .NET. While you can call Windows APIs from .NET apps, you usually don't need to since common functionality is available through .NET classes. Speaking as a 9-5 .NET code monkey.

 

[dook43]

Writing pure .NET applications is possible, and "well" is subjective. If the competition is the typical type of "apps" available on Android and iOS, .NET is perfectly fine for user apps on ARM. For full blown commercial grade apps, yeah .NET isn't ideal.

Native code can also come in the form of libraries compiled outside of .NET. While you can call Windows APIs from .NET apps, you usually don't need to since common functionality is available through .NET classes. Speaking as a 9-5 .NET code monkey.

I'm a .Net architect....

Key issues that we run into are double buffering (SetWindowLongPtr) and windows messages (Can't send a windows message to an control without an API call). Our application loads controls dynamically based on a table driven layout, so we probably run into issues most haven't had to deal with.

It's time to go to WPF, at any rate.

 

[Dark Shroud]

This is going to take years to materialize in any form. By then Intel & AMD will have even better hardware out. AMD's Fusion and Intel's SoC will both be out in 2nd or 3rd by then. Intel can also buy out Lucid to make their own version of Optimus for desktops & mobile.

Intel has plenty of time & money to improve x86 and continue to shrink their nodes while streamlining their architecture by the time Nvidia has a working hardware sample of this out.

As for gaming? Current consoles use PowerPC architecture and will probably continue to do so for some time. No game company is going to just port over a full game to Nvidia's CPU. These companies barely do it for x86 in DirectX on Windows let alone porting to OpenGL for Mac OS (also x86/x64). We'll see Sega reenter the hardware game before Nvida can compete with Microsoft, Sony, & Nintendo. It takes billions to launch a support Console for a few years.

This is serious wait & see since MS only said Windows 8 & showed MS Office. They've said nothing about .NET & WPF. Silverlight and XNA are a maybe since they run on WP7 already. XNA already works on the 360 & Silverlight should be going to the 360.

I'll bet Windows 8 releases before this ARM based CPU is shown to running as an engineering sample.

 

[Silus]

This is going to take years to materialize in any form. By then Intel & AMD will have even better hardware out. AMD's Fusion and Intel's SoC will both be out in 2nd or 3rd by then. Intel can also buy out Lucid to make their own version of Optimus for desktops & mobile.

Intel has plenty of time & money to improve x86 and continue to shrink their nodes while streamlining their architecture by the time Nvidia has a working hardware sample of this out.

As for gaming? Current consoles use PowerPC architecture and will probably continue to do so for some time. No game company is going to just port over a full game to Nvidia's CPU. These companies barely do it for x86 in DirectX on Windows let alone porting to OpenGL for Mac OS (also x86/x64). We'll see Sega reenter the hardware game before Nvida can compete with Microsoft, Sony, & Nintendo. It takes billions to launch a support Console for a few years.

This is serious wait & see since MS only said Windows 8 & showed MS Office. They've said nothing about .NET & WPF. Silverlight and XNA are a maybe since they run on WP7 already. XNA already works on the 360 & Silverlight should be going to the 360.

I'll bet Windows 8 releases before this ARM based CPU is shown to running as an engineering sample.

Heh, so you think that this sort of announcement means that they just started working on this ?

 

[gizmo]

Can anyone really compete with the marketing size of Intel? I do not really like it any more than the next person, but it seems a tough castle to conquer.

 

[Yakk]

Can anyone really compete with the marketing size of Intel? I do not really like it any more than the next person, but it seems a tough castle to conquer.

Possible? I would say Yes.

How did Walmart or Google beat out their respective Top-Of-Industry giants when they started out, before becoming one themselves? (I will keep sarcastic remarks to a minimum )

Getting to the "Top of an industry" is a collosal accomplishment, staying there and anticipating the competition is just as, or more difficult. (Ask Micro$oft...etc...)

Y.

I would think nvidia is at least a couple years R&D into this project at this point. The announcement seems more for their financials then anything else. Which seemed to at least partially work BTW, their stock prices spiked on announcement.

 

[Kardonxt]

I assume they know what they are doing but if it doesn't pan out that's a crap load of R&D $$ down the drain. Personally i don't know if it's worth the risk but apparently nvidia does.

 

[heatlesssun]

This is serious wait & see since MS only said Windows 8 & showed MS Office. They've said nothing about .NET & WPF. Silverlight and XNA are a maybe since they run on WP7 already. XNA already works on the 360 & Silverlight should be going to the 360.

I'll bet Windows 8 releases before this ARM based CPU is shown to running as an engineering sample.

Heh, so you think that this sort of announcement means that they just started working on this ?

Exactly. The .NET compact framework has been running on ARM for years, before the iPhone even. One of .NET's goals was to be platform independent and it's not like Microsoft hasn't done Windows on on different architectures. I guarantee that you will see more apps more quickly for this platform than iOS or Android could have dreamed of. A lot of stuff will only need straight forward recompiles. .NET code will very seamless. Even with Windows desktop and Windows Phone there's a large amount of source code compatibility, the main differences are is in the UI components.

 

[pxc]

They've said nothing about .NET & WPF. Silverlight and XNA are a maybe

Tap, tap. That's a 4 piece puzzle and it fits together quite well.

I can make a 100% accurate guess that you don't program .NET.

 

[Dark Shroud]

Heh, so you think that this sort of announcement means that they just started working on this ?

Thanks for addressing anything I said. When Nvidia started this is moot as they do not have hardware or else they would have shown it off. Nvidia made this announcement because Windows announced ARM support. And Nvidia has been loosing money lately so now their stock price is back up.

I said years for a reason. Getting the chip finished & mass produced is only part of the situation. They need mobos and they need companies to actually put these devices in products. I just don't see much happening beyond tablets & netbooks. The only reason this even has a chance is because Silverlight works on ARM as I mentioned before. If .NET & WPF do not happen with some emulation assistance we're not going to see this do very well at all in a desktop.

EDIT:

Tap, tap. That's a 4 piece puzzle and it fits together quite well.

I can make a 100% accurate guess that you don't program .NET.

I know Silverlight is a subset of .NET. But no I haven't learned any of these languages yet.

 

[Deleted member 88227]

A new gaming console backed by Nvidia. That would be interesting, maybe it'll have keyboard/mouse support straight out of the box.

 

[Red Falcon]

This is going to take years to materialize in any form. By then Intel & AMD will have even better hardware out. AMD's Fusion and Intel's SoC will both be out in 2nd or 3rd by then. Intel can also buy out Lucid to make their own version of Optimus for desktops & mobile.

I'll bet Windows 8 releases before this ARM based CPU is shown to running as an engineering sample.

This is a possibility. We waited forever for Intel to release Larabee, and back when it would have mopped the floor with the Series 8 and HD2000 series cards. Now though, the Larabee would be toast compared to the GTX500 and HD6000 series cards, not to mention it would not be nearly as power efficient (assuming it was using the same tech as before).

It is good though that Windows 8 will have the support, even if there isn't a working model yet. Microsoft did this with Win Vista before a DX10 card had even been released as well.

 

[Silus]

Thanks for addressing anything I said. When Nvidia started this is moot as they do not have hardware or else they would have shown it off. Nvidia made this announcement because Windows announced ARM support. And Nvidia has been loosing money lately so now their stock price is back up.

I said years for a reason. Getting the chip finished & mass produced is only part of the situation. They need mobos and they need companies to actually put these devices in products. I just don't see much happening beyond tablets & netbooks. The only reason this even has a chance is because Silverlight works on ARM as I mentioned before. If .NET & WPF do not happen with some emulation assistance we're not going to see this do very well at all in a desktop.

NVIDIA has been losing money ? Someone is not really paying attention to 10Ks...

Also, how is it moot when you claimed this is going to take years and have no idea when they started it ? A product announcement isn't made when there's NOTHING done. Besides, this wasn't a product announcement (and thus they don't need to show any hardware), they just said they have a project called Denver that will be an architecture based on ARM, but for high performance and with a GPU on the same die, much like Intel's and AMD's APUs.

The Microsoft announcement isn't a coincidence either. NVIDIA knew this before hand. Microsoft didn't just start on ARM support, after they said that there would be a Windows for that. These things take quite a bit of time and when any company makes this kind of announcement, it's because they already have something tangible and not just some blueprints on some folder named "Denver" or "Windows with ARM support".

As for the other support, you seem to think that these things (especially new stuff never before seen) are thought out as "hey let's invest in this, without knowing that there's interest in it and that we'll have support from our usual partners" ?...I'm sorry, but that doesn't make a whole lot of sense.

 

[Michaelius]

A new gaming console backed by Nvidia. That would be interesting, maybe it'll have keyboard/mouse support straight out of the box.

That's a good point. It could be great platform for gaming console with single chip doing CPU and GPU functions (game developers already have crapload of experience for ARM architecture).

Also it could be used as dedicated hardware platform for whatever professional tasks you can do on CUDA.