Non-wide Gamut H-IPS LCD's 24" or 26"

Discussion in 'Displays' started by mildante, Mar 5, 2009.

  1. mildante

    mildante Limp Gawd

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    Hello all, I wanted to ask if you guys know about any 24" or 26" LCD without the wide gamut that uses preferably H-IPS (less preferably S-PVA) panel and is cheaper than the NEC LCD2490WUXi ? Possibly something like HP LP2475w in the terms of cost but without the wide gamut. Or is this mission impossible?
     
  2. Drags

    Drags Gawd

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    Hazro HZ24W and HZ24Wi if you can get them where you are. they are IPS based and standard gamut. no other 24" models i know of which are not extended gamut and aren't the NEC 2490WUXi
     
  3. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Hazros have no backlight control. I would stay far, far away even I could get them.
     
  4. PC_User

    PC_User [H]ardness Supreme

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    Mission impossible.
     
  5. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Wasnt Hazro supposed to update their models in future, and add backlight controls to it? If they do, then they might be serious contenders if they can fix their quality control.
     
  6. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I am completely stumped that Hazro came to market without the most fundamental control beyond the on/off button.

    It's like selling a car without and accelerator pedal. You always get this much gas, you drive around buy modulating your brakes...

    When I first read about Hazro, I thought it was really cool building a series of monitors with only high quality IPS panels, but missing this, I am seriously questioning the thought that went into this.
     
  7. mildante

    mildante Limp Gawd

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    Thank you for your suggestion, but I cannot get Hazro here anyway, they do not sell those here.

    The NEC 2490WUXi just started selling here in Europe so it is quite an expensive choice now.

    What about Eizo - aren't they doing any non-wide gamut panel suitable for photo editing?

    This wide-gamut thing is really not worth all the trouble with the color management. No benefit in it. There are really very few photos or scenes that I had photographed where the extra tones would be visible - so far I have come across 5-7 such photos. However all the not-color-managed content is terribly oversaturated - movies, games. If I knew this before I would not buy a wide-gamut lcd, it's a pain in the,,,
     
  8. PC_User

    PC_User [H]ardness Supreme

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    Once again, your view is subjective and will be addressed by Windows 7.

    BTW, I've never had oversaturation in games or movies...
     
  9. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    Yeah, Eizo has the CE240W, and there's no way you're getting it for less than the 2490WUXi.

    Actually, I'm pretty sure now that Windows Vista already fixes wide-gamut oversaturation with the color management control panel. However it cannot manage two monitors with different gamuts...sigh. Fortunately that should change with Windows 7. edit: oops I'm wrong, Vista is in fact useless after all :eek:
     
  10. mildante

    mildante Limp Gawd

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    Well if W7 was color managed as a whole and somehow managed to force the color profile to all the applications - including games and movies - it would be really really very helpful.

    But again - I cease to understand what is the point of a wide-gamut panel.
    If I had an accurately calibrated wide gamut LCD and an accurately calibrated non-wide-gamut LCD and a photo with only sRGB colors will the photo on the wide gamut LCD look somehow better? It should look exactly the same, right?
     
  11. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    He keeps claiming that, but it doesn't seem to be backed up. 10e went as far taking him at his word, installing the latest W7 beta only discover it is no different than Vista.

    10e is no slouch when it comes to color management. He must have bought 10 LCDs in the last couple of years, both normal and wide gamut. Has purchased a couple of extra software calibration packages and knows what to do with them.

    FWIW I had a wide gamut screen for a while(returned and got an NEC 2490 very happy now), but couldn't tolerate the color issues. I did see oversaturation in games/movies/everywhere. Only the relatively few color managed applications were not.

    For 99.9% of people, wide gamut is nothing but a hassle.

    If I was doing it today I might sacrifice size/resolution and try that new 22 Dell with IPS screen. or wait for a 23"/24" version.
     
  12. Armatoste

    Armatoste Limp Gawd

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    I'd say to wait for the 23"-24" e-IPS lcds that are on the way. Probably will be 16:9, but the price should be right. Perhaps finally I'll have a worthy successor to my NEC 20WMGX2.
     
  13. PC_User

    PC_User [H]ardness Supreme

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    I had Windows 7 beta Build 7000 which I was running as a secondary OS for some time. When I enabled the scRGB mode with the extended color gamut, the colors were perfect and everything in Windows was spot on. Sure, this doesn't apply to non-color-managed programs but I never noticed oversaturation in those in the first place. I also never noticed oversaturation in games or movies in both Windows 7 and Windows Vista, so I can't comment on the 'hassle' that others find in wide gamut.

    In an ideal world, monitors would be standard gamut to fit the standard 72% NTSC gamut of sRGB colors, but we don't live in an ideal world and have to select monitors from those that are available. What can one do if they don't have an 'affordable' 24" non-wide-gamut monitor?
     
  14. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    ...Vista already does this. So does XP (but XP doesn't have default profiles). If that's all 7 can do, nothing has changed.
     
  15. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Thats dissapointing. I was already looking forward to Windows 7.
     
  16. mildante

    mildante Limp Gawd

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    Hmm, those 23"-24" e-IPS you are mentioning ... are they supposed to be non-wide-gamut? When they can be available?

    edit - oh I see, the first ones will probably be LG's and it looks like they might be inferior to H-IPS panels. So probably cheaper. Ok, now it depends on how good they will be in terms of color accuracy..
     
  17. xorbe

    xorbe [H]ardness Supreme

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    that cracked me up! lol

    :D
     
  18. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    Correct if I am wrong but I think you both are talking past each other. The scRGB use in Vista is Windows Photo not the OS in general. That is way the default picture viewer displays sRGB and larger gamut pictures correctly even on wide gamut monitors. What is missing and would solve the problem is if W7 actually used scRGB as the default for the OS. That would resolve the issue permanently because all current content would look correct and scRGB exceeds the light spectrum detectable by the human eye.

    XP never had this feature. Yes you could use the optional color panel but that is not the same and neither did it work to resolve the wide gamut issue.
     
  19. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    The color management control panel in Vista is the same as in XP, except it has two 'default' profiles so you don't need to generate your own with a hardware calibrator (or download one from a place like this forum.) The 'scRGB virtual device model profile' is just a general wide-gamut profile provided by Microsoft, and if you associate it with a device (or set it to system default) then color managed programs like Firefox or PS will use it just like an ICC profile you generated yourself.

    PC_User specifically said that non-color managed applications do not benefit in Windows 7. Which is the same as Vista.
     
  20. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    We are still talking past each other. The color management control panel has very little do with what we are talking about. It doesn't matter what profile you apply to your monitor, Vista or XP will still display none color aware items in the default gamut of the monitor. All the control panel is good for is setting a profile for an indiividual device but it doesn't change the OS default color profile.

    The scRGB feature talked about in Vista has nothing to do with the that panel. It is built in feature of the default picture viewing software.

    Again, if W7 or a patched Vista were changed to use scRGB by the OS by default then this issue would be go away for 99% of content.
     
  21. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    Then I don't know what control panel you are talking about. The one I mean is in Color Management. You can select the scRGB virtual device model profile and associate it with a display device, or set it to system default under the Advanced tab. Either way, results are pretty close in color managed apps to the DS-263N profile I got from ToastyX.

    If it's different in windows 7, I don't see why PC_User would have said that non-color managed apps are unchanged.
     
  22. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ok, let me back up.

    Issue One: All the articles about scRGB in Vista have nothing to do with it replacing sRGB as the default rendering profile. It was specific to the default picture viewer / gallery. From what I have been able to find this is the same for W7. If it is not and MS is actually going to replace sRGB with scRGB then I would applaud that move.

    Issue Two: The Color Control Panel does not do what you think it does. Let me point to how you can tell. Go to your CCP and click the Advanced tab. See the field called Viewing Conditions Profile? Notice when select that pulldown the only option is various versions of the sRGB profile? The other profiles you can change are all device profiles. These work in conjunction with the default render but they do not replace it.

    Honestly, I think it is time for MS to step and support the power users by changing the default for Vista/W7 to scRGB. IT won't break anything and will ensure future compatibility. Unless humans evolve better eyes, its the profile to end all profiles.:D
     
  23. HenryBravo

    HenryBravo Limp Gawd

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    Way to stay on topic guys.

    OP you're going to have a hard time finding a decent non-wide gamut display in the 24" - 26" range. If I may make a suggestion: stop listening to all the nay sayers about wide gamut and try it for yourself. That's what I did. I think you'll find it's not really a big deal after all. 15 minutes of tweaking and you're good to go. For example you mentioned an interest in the HP LP2475w monitor, but you have reservations about the wide gamut. I'm here to tell you it's really no big deal.

    1. Install the HP LP2475w color profile located on tftcentral.co.uk, and manually adjust the monitor's colors to match their recommended settings.
    2. Web browsing - If you want web pages to look normal, you'll have to ditch IE, no way around that. You'll have to use a color aware browser like Firefox with color management enabled (about:config, then set "gfx.color_managment.enabled" to true). Takes 10 seconds or so.
    3. Movies - For movies just turn down the saturation a little bit in your video player, or in the video card's video color settings. No big freakin' deal. If you're picky then you can always play around with the individual color gamma settings. For nvidia cards this is in the "Adjust Video Color Settings" section of the nvidia control panel.
    4. Pictures - For viewing pictures, Vista's built in Photo Gallery is color aware, and will therefore adhere to the color management profile. If you're hardcore into photo editing, then there are many programs that are color aware. Again, no big deal.
    5. Games - There is no easy way to force a game to follow color management. Big woop-dee-doo I say. If a character is coming at me in Unreal Tournament 3, and the red bandana on his head is a little oversaturated compared to the sRGB standard, I say who the fuck cares because colors in games are unrealistic to begin with. When Vista first hit the market, people used to bitch because digital vibrance was broken in the nvidia drivers. Now people are complaining about the possibility their games will look a little oversaturated on a wide gamut monitor. On a CRT or normal gamut LCD, if you bump up the digital vibrance to 15%, then you'll be close to the default saturation level when gaming on a wide gamut monitor. Personally I think the slightly richer colors make all my games look better. Personal preference of course.
     
  24. nomu

    nomu Gawd

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    I see now what you mean, but that's a feature that is coming up on 10 years as a no-show. Either way, if unmanaged programs remain unaffected, the result is the same as Vista (and effectively XP - who makes extensive use of the photo viewer?)
     
  25. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    OP has tried it. Said if he knew about the mess with WG he never would have bought one. Which is why as a "nay sayer" I always warn people away from WG when I get the chance.

    Tried this with my WG screen. It was FUBAR. I was looking at the Simpson, had a choice between green simpsons or purple skies. A long frustrating exercise with poor outcome.

    Yeah, Thats why I use windows. So I can only choose from 10 properly working programs instead of the 100 000+ that will work properly with a normal monitor.

    You are entitled to your opinions, but even games sucked for me. The Reds were so radioactive they hurt my eyes.

    WG is largely nothing but grief over a normal gamut screen. That is why you see countless threads complaining about it, asking for solutions, schemes to try to make just one application work properly (like a movie player) or rejoicing when a single application gets support (Firefox).

    My suggestion remains on low end (back on topic):
    22" e-IPS Dell
    or wait for 23-24" inch versions reported to be coming.
    High end:
    NEC 2490 (Tends to hum in Europe BTW).
     
  26. vick1000

    vick1000 [H]ard|Gawd

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    Honeslty, I have gotten used to the over saturation of WG on my HP LP2475w. I think it's just a matter of going from non-WG to WG and the brain seeing the difference initially. Now whem I see a managed app using scRGB, it looks bland and washed out, so I changed the CCM settings to use the monitors profile in all situations. It's just like when I went from CRT to LCD, and black was not black, eventaully I got used to it and hardly notice it now.
     
  27. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    You mean, with Gamma setting or saturation setting? With saturation, just reducing it 85 provides very natural looking colors, aside from slightly stronger shade of red than normal.
     
  28. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    I don't remember the exact detail. But saturation (and no saturation for general, just movie) wasn't sufficient, color didn't look right and I was trying to fix it.

    It was pain for a week until I gave up and boxed it.
     
  29. dmr

    dmr n00b

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    In fact games on Win7 look much better than on xp. I do not know what they did in Microsoft, but the games have much deeper colors and more realistic than on win xp! I also have HP LP2475w.
     
  30. MaZa

    MaZa 2[H]4U

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    Well if you have calibrated your monitor and then reduce the saturation then it obviously butchers up the colors, but if you have ATI card and reduce the screen saturation and then calibrate the monitor, the colors look surprisingly right. I guess thats because color gamma and temperature are adjusted with the saturation-reduced picture as a base. Red is still problematic.
     
  31. Luthorcrow

    Luthorcrow [H]ard|Gawd

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    Ditto


    That is true until you start comparing what you are seeing on the screen with the real world. Particularly skin colors just never look natural in non-color managed applications on a WG monitor.

    No one denies that WG instantly makes everything garish. It also depends on how wide the gamut is. If you have one with 92% it might only be annoying or pleasing to some but with the newer units hitting 115% and up, it just looks stupid no matter how long you stare at the screen.

    MS just needs to patch windows to scRGB and get it done.

    I do think the 92% gamut monitors for most users are fine but anything above that is just out of bounds unless you are colorblind.
     
  32. Ruahrc

    Ruahrc Limp Gawd

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    My question is, Mac OSX defaults non-color tagged stuff to the RGB profile of the monitor, not sRGB. But Windows does it to sRGB. What is the reason each took a different approach?

    Do WG displays have these same problems on macs? Or because they default non-color manged stuff to monitorRGB, it avoids the issue of stretching sRGB space into WG color space?

    Ruahrc
     
  33. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Gawd

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    The you could just as well buy a 17"; also has a impractical 10xx resolution as opposed to the superior 1200 of the 20" 4;3 and 24" 16:10 monitors.
     
  34. Armatoste

    Armatoste Limp Gawd

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    Thanks for the advice!

    *thows away evil 1680 x 1050 monitor and replaces with 17" crt*

    MUCH BETTER!
     
  35. jcvjcvjcvjcv

    jcvjcvjcvjcv Gawd

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    Vertical resolution only 26 lower and pixelpitch much higher, no inputlag, better colors. Yes, I have to agree with you.
     
  36. Armatoste

    Armatoste Limp Gawd

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    Why so serious jvc?
     
  37. Dainas

    Dainas Limp Gawd

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    My HP LP2475w falls into the category of what you wanted to avoid, but its a simple matter of taming the colors down to 230/230/230 in its menu to calm things down, still vibrant but not eye bleeding. Also no banding or contrast issues result, it just looks dead one excellent.

    I love the thing to death. Its sitting right next to a very good standard rgb 24" and does not look oversaturated, just better.
     
  38. dandv

    dandv n00b

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    Home come nobody has mentioned the HP LP2465? It's rated "very good" by PRAD.de and I know of a very large company that equips its cubicles with this monitor.

    It's indeed a business-oriented monitor: no shiny/glossy stuff, no colors that JUMP IN YOUR EYES (I too hate the oversaturation and NO, I didn't get used to it after using the damn HP LP2475w for a month), no crappy speaker or media card reader.
     
  39. solaris54

    solaris54 2[H]4U

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    I agree with you 100%. The ATI control panel does a very nice job adjusting WC gamut monitors whether it be the larger home monitor or notebook display. I cant even count how many monitors I have used this with and had very nice results. I switched from Nvidia to ATI partly because of this and it has been more than worth it. The Nvidia saturation control does not work that well unless they have fixed it.
    Im not even worried about WC gamut anymore.
     
  40. Kai

    Kai [H]ard|DCer of the Month - February 2014

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    No one has mentioned it because it's not IPS.