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No compromise Mini ITX case idea?

S

Supmolk119

n00b
Joined
Oct 29, 2013
Messages
13
Hello everybody! Supmolk here. I've been lurking the forums long enough and decided to register to run an idea by everybody here. All comments, discussion, opinions, and help are greatly appreciated!

I want to build a SFF Mini ITX case that has no compromises made true to enthusiast class. That means building in mind with these goals:

  • ATX PSU
  • Full length display cards
  • Relatively quiet, or atleast in some HTPC configurations
  • Unified high performance watercooling loop for both CPU and GPU
  • Aiming for a 13-14 liter volume

The Story:
It all started about 3 months ago when my cousin and I were talking about the best fan based cooling solution for display cards and we both agreed that the stock cooler on the GTX Titan was aesthetically pleasing, high performance, and low noise. So while we disagreed on a whole bunch of other things related to cooling solutions, we both started to wonder why there had never been radiators for water cooling systems that uses a similar concept to the stock GTX Titan cooler.

titan_cooling_side-view.png

Figure 1: GTX Titan stock cooler with cover removed. It uses a centrifugal fan with a 37 fin heatsink arrangement that sits on top of a rectangular vapor chamber.


I tried to find out. I've searched online for these past few months and have had 7-8 years of experience assembling gaming rigs for friends and family to make a couple more bucks throughout college, several of which were water cooled (roughly 50 or so machines assembled). No such radiators exist. Correct me if I am wrong.



The Idea:
What I do know however, is that practically all laptops except Macbook Air and ultrabooks use the same idea of centrifugal fans to push air through heatsinks for heat dissipation. The reference GTX 690 uses it to dissipate up to 300W of heat. It does so without ever breaking 42 dBs. 42 dBs is like a relatively serene day in the suburbs or in a library where there is a bit of low chit chat.

Where form factor and size limitations are in place, such as the laptop and the reference Nvidia coolers, the centrifugal fan + heatsink combo can work at dissipating huge amounts of heat and do it relatively quietly.



My conclusion:
Since SFF cases have the same important considerations as laptops and such, and where every SFF case has major issues with heatsink clearance, why is there no Mini ITX case for enthusiasts that take advantage of this design?

I drew up some basic concepts on CAD for everyone to see. Eye candy for the masses!

mt51.png

Figure 2: Front side of the radiator in mind. Radiator dimensions are 170mm length * 200mm wide. 2x 100mm centrifugal fans.

zibz.png

Figure 3: Back side of the radiator, with exposed pipes to show how water flows through the block.

gzcs.png

Figure 4: How the radiator might look on an ITX tower such as the DigitalStorm Bolt.

gad1.png

Figure 5: ITX tower, radiator attached with partial cutout. I know some of you like your transparent sides :D



The Goal:
Eventually I want to make this case a reality. I want your comments, suggestions, and help of any kind! I haven't decided much on the design of the case itself, rather focusing on making sure everything fits before I design the front panel.

Right now I'm designing the case with a 15 liter volume that I will try to shave down. I'm also going to buy some panels of wood and cardboard when I'm done with the CAD to do a cheap prototype to make sure everything fits as it does in CAD. Not too sure as to how to materialize a radiator prototype at this point.

P.S. Some more pictures on my other computer that I will show soon that will expose more of the case innards!
 
Supmolk119 said:
wonder why there had never been radiators for water cooling systems that uses a similar concept to the stock GTX Titan cooler.
...
What I do know however, is that practically all laptops except Macbook Air and ultrabooks use the same idea of centrifugal fans to push air through heatsinks for heat dissipation. The reference GTX 690 uses it to dissipate up to 300W of heat. It does so without ever breaking 42 dBs. 42 dBs is like a relatively serene day in the suburbs or in a library where there is a bit of low chit chat.
Click to expand...

You haven't heard those fans at full blast. :eek:

There is a reason for centrifugal fans (AKA blowers or squirrel cage) to be used in certain configurations. They are adept at changing direction of airflow 90°, can be quite low profile and have high static pressure (important for squeezing air through tightly packed fins).

They are not good at moving high volume of air, so they usually require more RPMs. Also, they are not good at pushing air linearly (straight through).

They are used in notebooks precisely for their properties. You can't dedicate too much space inside a notebook for air channels, so they can suck in air from underneath, turn it 90°, then expel it out through some cooling fins attached by a flattened heatpipe to the CPU.

Similarly with reference high end graphics card designs. The PCB itself means air must make a 90° turn, plus be forced through a long length of heatsink fins.

Regarding the radiators, the reason why is probably one of cooling efficiency. As air moves through the radiator and heats up, cooling will be reduced for the rest of the radiator. Imagine stacking several radiators. The first one gets the coolest air, and the last one gets the hottest air. How much cooling do you think you can get out of hot air? Look at radiators for any application, and you will see that the airflow design goes through the thinnest part.

Have you looked at other "no compromise" cases bandied about here?

GL on your case idea, and remember to post pics if you do a mock-up.
 
Rather than dedicating space for a radiator, no matter now thin, I'd rather see a Titan-style blower integrated at the motherboard level, like on a notebook.

On top of that, the motherboard should have a side-facing PCI-e slot on the "top" edge, so with the video card plugged in, both blowers will be side by side and facing the same direction. (Maybe it's easier to just invest in a good ribbon cable.)
 
Updates!

I've custom ordered an extended server case to test the configuration in a more open space.

4iyy.jpg


I'll be developing the case itself first before developing the AIO liquid cooling setup. Benchmarks to come.
 
Tested out various riser cards and cables. All together 19 of them.

10 of them did not boot out of the box. Out of the remaining 9 I settled on the one you can see in the previous picture which is a 2U riser card. I spoke to the manufacturer and I could get them at about $2-3 each, which I think is reasonable enough for me to continue building my case. Cables absolutely suck. 1U Risers simply do not give enough clearance to hold dual slot GPUs. I'll be holding onto these two parts in case I ever want to build an ultra slim case for a 1 slot card.

hwxw.jpg
 
Benchmarks with this riser in custom server case. Benchmarks were all done at hotstart (30 minutes running Unigine Valley before test). The slim case performed horribly until I added 3 Gelid Silent 8s.

g2mu.png


j0h7.jpg


ei8m.jpg


If everything goes smoothly, I'll be shipping the case with atleast 2x fans. It'll either be the Gelid Silent series, or if I decide to go with side mounts, the Scythe Superslim slip stream.

Benchmarks without the riser in CoolerMaster HAF XB, open top and side panels:

87ss.png


l31u.jpg
 
Yeah I've been trying to find that short straight extender for a while to no avail.

Do you know where I can get one?
 
Your CAD drawings are a bit confusing to me. Is that design based on using one cooler over 2 cards, ore one large cooler for a single card?
 
Alted4 said:
Your CAD drawings are a bit confusing to me. Is that design based on using one cooler over 2 cards, ore one large cooler for a single card?
Click to expand...
His idea is to use a plate with engraved water channels on one side and high density fins (needs high pressure fans), similar to those found on GPU blower type coolers on the other side and replacing the unit, commonly known as radiator, with that.
So essentially his proposal boils down to a new(?) design of a water/air heat exchanger with blower style fans and this being used in a compact as possible manner for the whole system.

IMHO the radiator he proposes will be to costly to produce in comparison to current stuff. I don't think it will fly. In the Athlon XP era I had a similar setup, where the heat exchanger was convection cooled air side and engraved water channels on the inside (350mm x 400mm alu heat exchanger with a 15mm thick bottom plate = heavy and expensive). With high density fins the weight/cost comes down, but the machining will still be expensive.
 
Last edited:
Quick Update:

5x wearout extenders ordered. Was able to get them at about $2-3 per piece directly from China. Ordered a 1U 500W PSU from seasonic (its the one in the EVGA Hadron if anyone is wondering) to further develop a case that is 2 inches thick.

Not going to work on the radiator designs yet, going to primarily focus on the case before the cooling.

Two cases are now in development: one that is 4 inches thick, and one that is roughly 2 inches thick.
I'll be using the Zalman CNPS for the 4 inch thick ones (its the standard steambox cooler) quiet and high performance. Anyone got some CPU cooling solutions that are ultra low profile for the 2 inch thick case?

Hopefully I'll be able to finish my samples by the end of January, and ship 3 of them to you hardforum people for free/comments/opinions :D
 
JoanTheSpark said:
His idea is to use a plate with engraved water channels on one side and high density fins (needs high pressure fans), similar to those found on GPU blower type coolers on the other side and replacing the unit, commonly known as radiator, with that.
So essentially his proposal boils down to a new(?) design of a water/air heat exchanger with blower style fans and this being used in a compact as possible manner for the whole system.

IMHO the radiator he proposes will be to costly to produce in comparison to current stuff. I don't think it will fly. In the Athlon XP era I had a similar setup, where the heat exchanger was convection cooled air side and engraved water channels on the inside (350mm x 400mm alu heat exchanger with a 15mm thick bottom plate = heavy and expensive). With high density fins the weight/cost comes down, but the machining will still be expensive.
Click to expand...

I spoke to several electronic component sourcers in Hong Kong and they gave me a price estimate of about $10-15 dollars per heatsink+vapor chamber design (note: they were quoting the original manufacturing price of the NVIDIA GK104 heatsink). If I put two of those together and soldered the pipes onto the vapor chamber, my total cost per unit shouldn't exceed $50 USD, the fans themselves are very cheap. What are your comments on that pricing?
 
Supmolk119 said:
I spoke to several electronic component sourcers in Hong Kong and they gave me a price estimate of about $10-15 dollars per heatsink+vapor chamber design (note: they were quoting the original manufacturing price of the NVIDIA GK104 heatsink). If I put two of those together and soldered the pipes onto the vapor chamber, my total cost per unit shouldn't exceed $50 USD, the fans themselves are very cheap. What are your comments on that pricing?
Click to expand...
I admit, sounds nice. That's why I put a big IMHO in front of that up there ;)
How many units do you have to take to get that price?
 
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