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Next Generation

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maverick786us

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Couple of years from now, will we see SSDs or something similar, that will have unlimited number of write cycles, or is there work already going on in developing such drives, thus overcoming the limitations of current SSDs?
 
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unlimited number of write cycles, thus overcoming the limitations of current SSDs?
Click to expand...

Larger current gen SSDs (240GB or larger) have in my opinion made this a non issue for desktop usage.
ReRAM should make it a non issue for server usage.
 
maverick786us said:
Couple of years from now, will see SSDs or something similar, that will not unlimited number of write cycles, thus overcoming the limitations of current SSDs?
Click to expand...

Write cycles are already an irrelevant concern for home users. At this current rate, my Samsung 830 which I have owned for 11 months, is slated to use up its cycles in 120 years.
 
People say that any SSD which has a write cycle > 1 million is considered to be a good SSD and faster the SSD is, quickly the write cycles will be finished. How much write cycles does a good SSD like Samsung 840 Pro has?
 
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maverick786us said:
People say that any SSD which has a write cycle > than 1 million is considered to be a good SSD and faster the SSD is, quickly the write cycles will be finished. How much write cycles does a good SSD like Samsung 840 Pro has?
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WOW.

Stop posting late at night if you are drunk and can't post something that makes sense.

You're making yourself look bad.

> = "Greater than" so when you say "> than" it reads "Greater than than". I`m not the best at spelling and grammar, but you have commas in random spots, are missing words, and are using improper conjugation. The bigger issue is this is your second time in the SAME thread, and then you question those of us who ask you what's going on!?
 
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maverick786us said:
Couple of years from now, will we see SSDs or something similar, that will have unlimited number of write cycles, or is there work already going on in developing such drives, thus overcoming the limitations of current SSDs?
Click to expand...

"Grandpa, read me a story?"
 
I don't think we'll see "unlimited" lifespan, mostly because I don't think that'll be a priority for a consumer level product.

If nothing else, the increase in capacity (from GB to TB) will make "older" drives a waste of physical space inside the computer.
 
I'm drunk and stoned, and here's a question about a technology that I don't understand.

Write cycles for modern consumer level drives used with higher than average write activity yields a lifetime measured in decades. It's not 2008 anymore.
 
The samsung 840 EVO is released today and its geared for the mass consumer. I just ordered the 250gb and excited about it :)


BEFORE RAPID MODE

Samsung-Magician-Performance.png


AFTER RAPID MODE

Samsung-Magician-Performance-RAPID.png


RAPID-Samsung-840-EVO-1TB-SSD-CDM.png
 
Ummmm... Those speeds aren't possible on Sata 3. Is that a raid or something?
 
so i tried primo on my old and underperforming OCZ vertex 2 60gb ssd.
I LOL'ed.

9514275068_74d5241a44.jpg
 
drescherjm said:
There is a software cache (that uses system ram as a read / write cache) that comes with the SSD. I am currently testing similar software with PrimoCache beta.

http://www.romexsoftware.com/en-us/primo-cache/download.html
Click to expand...

Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like that performance could only be achieved via write-back caching which seems like it would leave one exposed to losing writes if the system crashed or powered off for whatever reason. It does seem though that there would be benefit to reducing writes to an SSD where the same file changes rapidly by coalescing all changes in to a single write (similar to the kind of write-back caching Linux does with USB sticks and the like).

How lazy are the writes? How are sync writes handled? To quote the ZFS tuning guide; One can be infinitely fast, if correctness is not required.

The website seems a little thin on information.
 
its already a non issue in high performance enterprise storage arrays. Any array worth its salt will know when the drive is getting to a point where it can no longer write data. The array will proactively hot spare out that drive. you call support, and support sends you a new drive, you or the tech will swap the new drive back in.

its only a problem if you have an array this not under support, or a software raid solution that doesn't have the logic to preemptive fail a drive.
 
HFBallad said:
I don't think we'll see "unlimited" lifespan, mostly because I don't think that'll be a priority for a consumer level product.

If nothing else, the increase in capacity (from GB to TB) will make "older" drives a waste of physical space inside the computer.
Click to expand...


But it will definitely ease tension for consumers like us, where we don't have to worry about paging, hibernation, temporary internet files or deciding scratch disk issues. People like us if one HDD sector completes its write cycle, it will hurt
 
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This "long-term" plan for electronics is silly. Technology is changing so rapidly right now, and the current drive limits are not short I don't think you will have any issues.

Your current CPU came out in 2008... I don't think it's too common here that many have CPUs that old on their main rig. If you're OK with that technology then worrying about fast, and everlasting high-performance SSD is kind of against what you believe in anyway, right?
 
ToddW2 said:
This "long-term" plan for electronics is silly. Technology is changing so rapidly right now, and the current drive limits are not short I don't think you will have any issues.

Your current CPU came out in 2008... I don't think it's too common here that many have CPUs that old on their main rig. If you're OK with that technology then worrying about fast, and everlasting high-performance SSD is kind of against what you believe in anyway, right?
Click to expand...


I can't afford a CPU upgrade specially after buying latest generation Envy 15 costing 1200$. Its not that I don't want to upgrade one. But its difficult to save money after you are married. I've calculated that I need around 2000$ get latest Haswell gaming rig for which I need 6-8 months of saving if I don't spend money arrogantly,
 
maverick786us said:
I can't afford a CPU upgrade specially after buying latest generation Envy 15 costing 1200$. Its not that I don't want to upgrade one. But its difficult to save money after you are married. I've calculated that I need around 2000$ get latest Haswell gaming rig for which I need 6-8 months of saving if I don't spend money arrogantly,
Click to expand...

Get a (real) job?
 
Correct me if I'm wrong but it seems like that performance could only be achieved via write-back caching which seems like it would leave one exposed to losing writes if the system crashed or powered off for whatever reason.
Click to expand...

Primo allows you to control this. And yes one of the options is delayed writes for a drive that you specify the amount of time to delay. For me (as a programmer) this works out well. My data (source code) is checked into source control on a different server and is also distributed on every machine I use to develop my software so the risk of data loss is very minimal. I do not have this cache enabled on the system drive only the code drive.
 
maverick786us said:
Who is talking about mechanical spin drive. I am talking about limitation on write limit
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yes, and as others have pointed out this is a non issue

"limitation" compared to what?

my point is that a mechanical drive is likely to fail long before an SSD would run out of cycles with the same use
 
jojo69 said:
yes, and as others have pointed out this is a non issue

"limitation" compared to what?

my point is that a mechanical drive is likely to fail long before an SSD would run out of cycles with the same use
Click to expand...

OK so it is safe to use SSDs the same way we use mechanical HDDs for operations like...

1) Paging in virtual memory
2) Photoshop scratch disk
3) Default temporary internet files
4) Keeping the PC on for overnight?
 
maverick786us said:
OK so it is safe to use SSDs the same way we use mechanical HDDs for operations like...

1) Paging in virtual memory
2) Photoshop scratch disk
3) Default temporary internet files
4) Keeping the PC on for overnight?
Click to expand...


Is this real life :confused:
 
maverick786us said:
OK so it is safe to use SSDs the same way we use mechanical HDDs for operations like...

1) Paging in virtual memory
2) Photoshop scratch disk
3) Default temporary internet files
4) Keeping the PC on for overnight?
Click to expand...

All of those really don't stress SSD anymore. You may as well not even consider the write limit when buying because 99% of the time something else will break before it becomes an issue.

My 120GB SSD is a year old and has something like 4-5TB of writes to it and there have been zero issues.

The actual write limits are somewhere up in the heavy use range of 10 years excluding other things on the drive failing before then and in 10 years a 60 GB harddrive would be about as useful as a hard drive that is 10 years old today... Useless.

The TL;DR of this post is that write limits on SSD don't matter. Your hard drive will die of other things / become worthless before it runs out of writes.
 
where we don't have to worry about paging, hibernation, temporary internet files or deciding scratch disk issues
Click to expand...

None of these are a problem at all with current generation 240GB or larger drives.
 
maverick786us said:
OK so it is safe to use SSDs the same way we use mechanical HDDs for operations like...

1) Paging in virtual memory
2) Photoshop scratch disk
3) Default temporary internet files
4) Keeping the PC on for overnight?
Click to expand...

Yes. It is safe to use a modern 240GB+ SSD just like a hard drive for all of these. The main thing to avoid on SSDs is running defrag.
 
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Unlimited writes? Nope, never will happen. Not even hard drives have unlimited read/write. The mechanics will fail and the way memory currently works writes will always be a limitation. Although you can find new methods to raise the endurance to the point it no longer matters.


Once you get to 10,000 writes it already is fairly irrelevant with TRIM and controllers making better use of each cell of memory.

Near-term future technology: 3D NAND/NAND Stacking is where its going. Huge endurance boost as well as everything else that is currently limiting 2D planar NAND expansion.

Future: ReRAM

Far-Future: MRAM/STT-RAM

Duke Nukem Forver Future: PCM

Of course none of these may be needed except maybe one (ReRAM is closest to actual production) to ultimately replace NAND. With 3D and NAND stacking things will have a huge lifespan and the chances of any of these future memories making it out of niche markets is very small as the cost will be incredible for a long time to come. Right now Samsung is saying they are having limits of 24 layers stacking (so in theory take max capacity able to fit per drive and multiply by 24). That's not even a hard limit, just an economical one for them supposedly. Who knows costs could go down to make stacking 100 possible profit wise.

Interesting times we live in, but like silicon of old for CPU's, it appears all that research has paid off in pushing NAND beyond what was thought to be its limitations. I really hope they don't push it below 10nm even if they can. There is a lot of technical reasons why this could be very bad for everyone, but if they stay above that threshold and keep stacking then we may not see any of these technologies come as a replacement before most of us die.
 
Any one know any very recent info sources for ReRAM dev or testing? I'm really interested in watching this tech evolve, but the latest info I can find is about it being used in is an article from last year stating it was in a prototype SSD as a ReRAM+NAND hybrid drive. Anything more recent about a full ReRAM storage device?
 
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