Next Gen Consoles

Discussion in 'Console Gaming & Acc.' started by Stitch1, Sep 11, 2019.

  1. Stitch1

    Stitch1 n00b

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    Has anyone else started down the rabbit hole of what the next gen consoles might bring in the way of performance gains and what that might mean for gaming as a whole?

    Things we know so far.
    AMD Zen 2 CPU: This alone is a huge leap in performance as the Jags currently used has been the biggest thing holding current hardware back in terms of performance.

    8 core 16 thread CPU: With devs now working with this as the baseline PC gaming should see a huge jump in performance.

    Custom Navi GPU: While a chip upgrade brings in more muscle to push performance, I am more excited about...
    RDNA Architecture: Because they will be using Navi we will get all the gains from the advancement of graphics architectures over the last 7 years. Current gen hardware is really based on early GCN architecture. Digital Foundry recently did a comparison video of how much architecture changes from Tahiti GCN 1.0 to Polaris GCN 4.0 to Polaris GCN 4.0 (4 more compute units) to Navi (same 36 compute units) at worse we are looking at a 30% gains in from the architecture alone.

    14Gbps GDDR6 system memory: We still don't know how much ram will be provided. It would be surprising to see the the kind of jumps we've had in the past. However, anything is possible.

    Custom Low level integrated Storage SSD: A lot has been said about how they are going to be able to pull of the claims from both Microsoft and Sony. The idea is to get to next to no loading times. Something even the PC isn't currently capable of using NVME.

    Ray Tracing: Sony has said they will have ray tracing but not saying how they plan to handle it. Microsoft on the other hand has stated they will have hardware enhanced ray tracing. The thing to remember about ray tracing is that up until the Nvidia RTX lineup, that type of integer processing was completed at the CPU level. I will be interested to see if they use a dedicated chip, part of the GPU or CPU, or even possibly software based (in the case of Sony). Also, I wonder about what the means for the future of PC ray tracing.

    Variable Refresh Rate: Xbox has already added this feature and soon more and more TVs will support VRR with the advancement of the HDMI 2.1 spec. As spoiled as we have become with FreeSync and G-Sync, having this available on consoles is a huge deal. No longer will we see tearing like what was common place in the 360 era and being locked in at 30, 60, or even 120 won't matter quite as much as it does today. Combined with the dynamic resolution tricks currently seen in gaming I think this will help the new hardware meet or exceed expectations for a buttery smooth experience.

    Now the fun part. Speculation. The goal post seems pretty much set that 4k 60 needs to become the norm. Microsoft seems to be setting their bar even higher with 120fps. Being that these are 400 to 500 dollar boxes and current PC prices for that kind of performance seems far fetched at that price point. However, looking back at how good current games were able to look and run with such outdated and weak hardware, looking at you Jaguar CPUs, and how far technology has come. DX11 to Mantle to Vulcan and to DX12, giving devs more access API commands and lessen the burden on driver and software support. Think about the more efficiency in processing with additions of asynchronous compute with less idling compute units. Also, the addition of more, complex, and powerful compute units. This might be a much bigger leap than we have seen in a very long time.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2019
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  2. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    They going to be $500+. Don't expect 120fps at 4k from anything outside simple indie games. It is going to be a huge leap sure. It will push PC games more like every generation of consoles has. Sony is probably going with their own custom low level API like always. MS still won't have any games.
     
  3. Archaea

    Archaea [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Two things i don’t buy.

    “No loading”. If PC can’t do it in any iteration now, in 2019 even regardless of cost — then console can’t do it in 2020 at console prices. No way no how.

    120FPS at 4K. Ain’t happening. Not in they way we consider it on PC at Max Settings anyway.

    Next gen consoles are basically equivalent to a Ryzen 2700 performance with a 1080TI right? That’s a HUGE step up from current gen — and a really solid gaming platform on PC! But it’s not even a 4K 60hz arrangement on max settings with current gen PC games — never mind next gen.

    I’m excited about everything else. And I think it’s a big deal for PC gamers to have that much horsepower available as the base platform for game development. It’ll move the ball forward on game engines and graphic detail significantly. VRR integration is huge and makes specific FPS numbers largely irrelevant. I don’t care about capped 120hz when VRR is on the table. VRR makes continuous capping of FPS moot.
     
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2019
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  4. Stitch1

    Stitch1 n00b

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    I am still thinking $400 is the target price but with the tariffs in place I could easily see $500 as their base price.

    I'm not so sure on the 120 4K. While it may not be completely the norm I could see it as the target for some AAA games. IE: how 60 is the target on the Pro/X games currently. However, I don't think it will be a solid 120 or a solid 4k as we know them today on PC. Look at the new Call of Duty engine and what its doing with temporal supersampling. Any one frame may not be a solid 4k but they do dynamic tricks throughout the frame to give both the look and feel of a solid experience. This looks to have replaced checker boarding and it probably the same tricks that will be used going forward to get 4k 120 with the horsepower of the next gen systems.

    Sony and Microsoft both put their own secret sauce into their consoles. I think M$ might have the better blend with the lessons learned from their backcompat emulation team. The same tech they used to upscale their older games could be leveraged with even current gen games on current gen hardware. Reading in between the lines on some of their interviews it seems they are planning to use it for current gen games running on their next gen hardware to give them that impressive "enhanced edition" look on the new system. If you've played any 360 game on an X you'll know what I am talking about.

    I find it comical that you say Microsoft will still have no games. I remember the trends on the PS3/360 era where it was Sony was the one with no games. Even the launch of this gen people claimed Sony had no games. Then the PS4 took off and the story reversed. Microsoft made a HUGE blunder this generation. There's no doubt about that. Almost everything they wanted to do at launch had to be scraped and then they canceled game after game and didn't have the install base to support second party exclusives. Titanfall and Sunset Overdrive ring a bell. Heck, even Tomb Raider didn't help the bleeding at the time. Then the attempt to right the ship with the Halo collection blew up in their face when the game launched in horrible shape. Things are just now turning around for them but this gen is for sure an overall loss. However, they are in really good shape to start the next one. Backwards compatibility and Game Pass both are excellent features and make owning their system a good value again. To say they will have no games is comical because of all the studios they recently purchased. Plus they are launching with a revamped from the ground up Halo. Gears 5 just launched to rave reviews. Give them time. They are making good for the next gen.

    Now don't discount Sony and what they have done with their studios lately. When Sony was going through a similar hell at the start of the PS3 era they were able to launch some much loved franchises. Uncharted came out at the right time for them. They had some success with Resistance but had some real stinkers as well. LAIR anyone? Naughty Dog flexed their muscles and kicked off both Unchared and Last of Us at a time when Sony needed them most. However, Sony is now saying they want to make less of these single player experiences so that they can take longer fine tune and craft these types of games. I will say as of right now Sony has some of the best devs for single player story driven experiences. My worry is a lot of their eggs are set to hatch soon rather than with the next gen. So much so that I've decided to wait for the next gen to even play their latest crop of games. They have already confirmed PS5 will be backwards compatable with PS4. Death Stranding, Last of Us 2 can wait for new hardware for me.



    No loading does seem far fetched but with both of them talking about it this early on as their main selling point makes me put credibility to it. They will have the bandwidth with PCI4 and having very fast (even with current SSDs) transfer speeds. As well as whatever custom transfer algorithm they come up with due to being a closed ecosystem.... They may just do it. Or, if nothing else shorten them enough that they become nominal. If they are able to make a game like Witcher 3 go from what feels like a life time to load on current hardware to a few seconds on the new console... Call me impressed.

    Yes, you are correct. They are targeting 2700 performance at half the power consumption. The GPU side things are a little more cloudy and seems harder to compare to current GPUs. But yes ball park seems to be anywhere as low as a 1070 to as high as a 1080ti in raw horsepower. But I think the difference is how they put the rubber to the road. (poor analogy) But I still don't expect the same 4k 60 max settings we are used to on PC. Again the consoles can't play by the same rules as the raw power of the PC market. Consoles will never have the same PC "max settings". However, I think both the console and PC games will be better in the long run for it. Think about it this way. If the next gen hardware is able to be optimized to run in a veritable refresh rate between 60 to 120 on hardware that cost less than $500 in the PC market..... What would the high end PC cards be capable of?

    Also remember, both next gen consoles are using an APU configuration. So both CPU and GPU are on a single chip. This is probably the most interesting aspect of this. If they are able to optimize performance, keep power draw down, and of course thermals in check. What does that mean for something for a PC version of this kind of hardware where power and heat aren't a limiting factor. The PC future is looking very bright for someone like AMD at the moment. We're just too early to see how this will play out. Should be interesting to see what Intel has up its sleeves as well.

    On the flip side, I am very interested to see what 7nm will do for Nvidia's hardware. They should see some real performance gains but will it be as great as Pascal was for them or will their gains slow down again? Turning saw improvement but not to the same level as Pascal. I would like to know more about their road map but they are much more secretive. I would never count them out though. They such a unique company. Just pure speculation but I could see them double down on the ray tracing aspect of their cards. Currently, they are only able to really compute a very small level of rays. Basically, black and white shadow detail and not even all "that" much data. But as their die shrinks they could make a lot more room on the chip for much more powerful integer processing units. This could become their next big advantage in the gaming space. Again time will only tell.
     
  5. vegeta535

    vegeta535 2[H]4U

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    The PS3 issue wasn't the no games. It was the price it came out of the game with. It was too damn expensive. What hurt the Xbox one was all the bs drm crap and the price for inferior hardware to the PS4. No games worth owning a Xbox one for were exclusively release that couldn't be found on PC. Tarrifts shouldn't effect Sony much since they generally produce their console in Japan for a year before moving it all to China.
     
  6. Stitch1

    Stitch1 n00b

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    Oh, I'm sorry, I must have been mistaken. Sony has no games was never a meme or anything.


    Yes, we all agree Xbox pooped the bed with the XBO. Lots of heads were replaced after that and it's taken all generation to get them back on track. You can pretty much trace every Xbox issue back to when Peter Moore left and Don Mattrick took over. Moore was the one that stepped up to the plate when red ring was an issue and talked M$ to shell out to fix the issue with a no questions asked warranty. Did that save the brand? You bet your ass it did. Moore was great and fought to get exclusives or exclusive content on the system. Mattrick on the other hand never seemed to understand why people liked consoles in the first place. He put all his eggs in the Kinnect basket. We all know how that worked out. The interesting thing about the DRM Microsoft was pushing is pretty similar to how Steam and the rest of the PC market works. Their biggest issues was communication. They didn't deliver a clear message and didn't ever explain their vision or why or how it would benefit the consumer. Then you tack on the Windows 8 style experience as your console dashboard (an app for achievements) and you got yourself one mess of a system on your hands.

    Sony originally produced the PS3 in Japan but the PS4 has always been built in China as far as I am aware.

    I'm not really here to debate the past. Although, it is good to look at when predicting the future. I'm just far more interested in hearing what others know about the next generation and how devs will be able to make better use of new technology.
     
  7. Domingo

    Domingo [H]ard as it Gets

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    I'm just happy that they keep bringing up FPS. That's a first on the console side of things.
    There's no way in hell we're going to see 4K/120 any time soon (and it won't work on 99% of TVs) but 4K (or upscaled 1440p) and 60fps IS within reach.
    That combined with quicker load times makes me happy.
    I'm also hopeful that some of the rumors related to Sony's next VR project are true. I'm still a believer in VR, but feel that it's just too much of a pain right now. Smaller hardware with wireless (or "less wired") functionality could go a long way toward making it a mainstream option.
     
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  8. Armenius

    Armenius I Drive Myself to the [H]ospital

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    No games worth playing is more apt. I felt that a lot of early releases were very gimmicky in that they were focusing too much on graphics and forgot about the gameplay. It really wasn't until about halfway through the console's lifespan did the PS3 get any games I felt were worth playing. We praise the PS4 for its quality lineup of exclusives, but it took awhile for Sony to hit the mark with that lineup on the PS3. Despite the relatively shorter list of games on the PS3 I think Sony understood where the market was going with multiplatform titles and decided to reevaluate the kinds of games they were releasing to make them really stand out among the competition. Microsoft did the opposite and are embracing the multiplatform ecosystem and that strategy has hurt their hardware division in a big way. It will be interesting to see what is going to happen now with both Sony and Microsoft teaming up to try and dominate what they see as the future of game streaming.
     
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  9. Denpepe

    Denpepe [H]ard|Gawd

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    I think they said something more to the likes of no more or little loading screens once the game is loaded or something to that effect.

    They demoed spiderman loading in 0.83 sec on the new hardware vs 8.10 sec on the PS4 pro (ofc you have to keep in mind this is a current gen game, not next gen) but iirc the dev also said they could have upped spidermans travel speed in the game with these faster loading speeds.

    I'm all for some speedier loading speeds as imo that is what currently keeps the consoles almost back as much as the dated CPU and GPU.
     
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  10. gamerk2

    gamerk2 [H]ard|Gawd

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    To be fair, the faster loading is a function of the HDD more then anything; a SSD pretty much covers that performance difference.
     
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