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Newb WOW question

I'm gonna post a bit of an accumulated truth update with some helpful hints.

As for the weapon's issue: up until lvl 50 and above, stick with a very slow sword in your mainhand and a very fast dagger in your offhand. The reason behind this is that rogue special attacks are instant and thus weapon speed doesn't matter when using these attacks. Since 70-80% of your damage will come from these attacks, they should take your highest priority. You will be giving up backstab and ambush to do this, but for leveling 1-50 it is much easier and more efficient to use swords and place your talents in the combat tree (with a few sprinkled in sublety / assn). If you don't want to give up backstab and ambuch, keep a dagger on you and switch to it to do those attacks and switch back in combat to your sword. Search for weapon switch scripts to make this easier.

As for traveling lowbie night elves, the way to get to Ironforge is to go through the portal in Danassus to Rut'theran village. Take the free hippogryph ride to Auberdine, then wait for the boat to Menethil Harbor (look at signs for which boat goes where). When you arrive in Menethil Harber (aka. The Wetlands) make sure you talk to the griffon master to get that flight path. Now head north and follow the road to Dun Morogh and Ironforge. IMPORTANT FOR LOW LVLS: Make sure you look for a griffon master in every city you visit as it will save a lot of travel time without your mount. Not every city or town has one, but most do.
 
Also, if you type /who and put Ironforge in the " " find a warlock and they might summon you saving your a 20 minute walk. Some warlocks wont but everynow and then you will find one that wll.
 
Defc0n 6 said:
Did you read my post? That doesn't matter. There is no way a dagger is possibly better than a sword/mace for PvE leveling.
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When you can ambush, gogue, backstab a caster and kill it while taking no damage there's plenty of ways it can be better for PvE leveling.
 
Hate_Bot said:
This has started pissing me off. Im he highest lvl in my instance group usually (lvl 24 warrior) and a priest healing me pulls like every single guy off.

Also, a mage sheeping one guy will also pull the mob off.

It's starting to piss me off, since the priest has to run away, I have to run after everyone all the time.
Click to expand...

First tip coming from a high lvl warrior, lvl 60, switch to def stance. It increases your threat and keeps aggro, use your taunt, it you have it at that lvl, disarm, sunder armor. One big thing that alot of warriors dont do is use a shield, you have to reliaze that a warrior is not the damage dealer, the other classes are, so get your shield and use shield bash also, all these will increase your threat and keep aggro. I went with a flurry axe and a wall of the dead shield, gives me some dps, around 100, and the shield bash stops casters and procs more armor from my shield
 
Hate_Bot said:
err, are you kidding me? Rogues are very high powered.

Pls, they are they king of ganks.

I consider Rogues more deserving of a nerf then shamans
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Ug, nah, shammies need to get thwacked with the nerf bat first.

As a hunter I have a somewhat easy time with rogues. Easier than most other classes ( except for, ironically enough, mages and priests ). Warriors rip me up.

Shaman on the other hand...there is literally nothing I can do to take down an even partially competent shaman on my own. Start us both off, fully buffed and full on health/mana, and there will be no way I can take him down. None. I have no abilities ( as a hunter ) to counter him. He, on the other hand, has a few different stuns, some good nukes, decent armor and good melee.
 
Lvl 60 Sword Rogue Checking in.

This is the Dagger/Sword debate.

Daggers are great for instant damage (ie ganking lowbie cloth wearers) but in practicality they don't help much. In most instances if you ambush a mob too early all you are going to do is pull agro off the tank and get your ass kicked. Also daggers are great for openers but sustained damage is lacking. My fiancee is a 60 dagger rogue and she does alot of damage but I am still doing much more than her. And unless you are ganking cloth that is 20 lvls lower than you Ambush and backstab don't help much in PvP. Cheap Shot, Hemmorage, Full Combo Bar, Cold Blood, Evic FTW.


Full combo with cold blood is netting me around 2000-2300hp



http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?name=Desolance&s_id=41
 
DemisE said:
Lvl 60 Sword Rogue Checking in.

This is the Dagger/Sword debate.

Daggers are great for instant damage (ie ganking lowbie cloth wearers) but in practicality they don't help much. In most instances if you ambush a mob too early all you are going to do is pull agro off the tank and get your ass kicked.
Click to expand...
This is why you use feint and don't attack first but let everyone else do a bit of damage first. Works every time.
DemisE said:
Also daggers are great for openers but sustained damage is lacking. My fiancee is a 60 dagger rogue and she does alot of damage but I am still doing much more than her.
Click to expand...
She must have a very poor talent build. Also, I don't know where you're fighting that you need so much sustained damage. Judging by your gear, I see you've done no MC runs, so unless you go with really crappy parties most mobs should no live past an ambush and backstab. Dagger rogues ALWAYS come out on top when I do instance runs.

DemisE said:
And unless you are ganking cloth that is 20 lvls lower than you Ambush and backstab don't help much in PvP. Cheap Shot, Hemmorage, Full Combo Bar, Cold Blood, Evic FTW.


Full combo with cold blood is netting me around 2000-2300hp



http://www.wowrankings.com/viewb.htm?name=Desolance&s_id=41
Click to expand...
Ambush and backstab help a lot in PvP. They're great for dealing a lot of damage in a very short time, which is often needed. Hemmorage is a complete waste of time and building up to a 5 point eviscerate is not always the answer because kidney shot or rupture should be used at certain times depending on the situation. Also, eviscerate doesn't do 2300 damage but whatever.

I looked at your talent build... you really need to change that. You get MoD, camo, and RP basically so you can just get hemmorage - but you still have improved sinister strike? Also, a very slow offhand weapon? That's really not going to take advantage of hemmorage or poisons. I'm sure you read some Theorycraftist's post on the forums about hemmorage being the way to go - it's not, it sucks. Just use sinister strike if you decide you want to use swords 100% of the time and focus more on the combat tree. Or, you could be like me and swap weapons depending on the situation - in which case you'll want a 21/8/22 build.
 
kick@ss said:
Judging by your gear, I see you've done no MC runs...
Click to expand...

How is this even remotely an accurate statement? I've done quite a few MC runs but has never had a rogue item drop. Also, this isn't a dagger vs. sword debate for lvl 60's, its a dagger vs. sword for low-mid levels in which there is no way you can say a dagger build is worth it. Not only are good swords abundant at all levels of the game, good daggers are non existant until ~lvl 50+. Even then, unless you're the most hardcore of WoW players in a top guild, you're never going to see the MC daggers.
 
the@ntipop said:
How is this even remotely an accurate statement? I've done quite a few MC runs but has never had a rogue item drop. Also, this isn't a dagger vs. sword debate for lvl 60's, its a dagger vs. sword for low-mid levels in which there is no way you can say a dagger build is worth it. Not only are good swords abundant at all levels of the game, good daggers are non existant until ~lvl 50+. Even then, unless you're the most hardcore of WoW players in a top guild, you're never going to see the MC daggers.
Click to expand...
You must not have gotten very far in MC or done it that many times if no rogue stuff has dropped. Also, any rogue that uses hemmorage in MC would get booted from any raid I'm in.

If you're going to do the same comparison with swords as you do with pre 50 daggers to post 50 daggers, then swords/maces suck too. There's nearly as many opportunities to obtain "good" mid level daggers as there are to obtain "good" mid level swords.
 
kick@ss said:
This is why you use feint and don't attack first but let everyone else do a bit of damage first. Works every time.
She must have a very poor talent build. Also, I don't know where you're fighting that you need so much sustained damage. Judging by your gear, I see you've done no MC runs, so unless you go with really crappy parties most mobs should no live past an ambush and backstab. Dagger rogues ALWAYS come out on top when I do instance runs.

Ambush and backstab help a lot in PvP. They're great for dealing a lot of damage in a very short time, which is often needed. Hemmorage is a complete waste of time and building up to a 5 point eviscerate is not always the answer because kidney shot or rupture should be used at certain times depending on the situation. Also, eviscerate doesn't do 2300 damage but whatever.

I looked at your talent build... you really need to change that. You get MoD, camo, and RP basically so you can just get hemmorage - but you still have improved sinister strike? Also, a very slow offhand weapon? That's really not going to take advantage of hemmorage or poisons. I'm sure you read some Theorycraftist's post on the forums about hemmorage being the way to go - it's not, it sucks. Just use sinister strike if you decide you want to use swords 100% of the time and focus more on the combat tree. Or, you could be like me and swap weapons depending on the situation - in which case you'll want a 21/8/22 build.
Click to expand...



I can't stand the combat build at all. I was too slow in stealth and there were too many talents that I missed. As far as my point in Subtlety they were all points that I wanted with the exception of Hemmorage. I didn't really want or need it but couldn't find a better talent for my play style. As far as Theorycraftist post, yes I have read it and took note of what he had to say, But I have respeced so many times and I keep coming back to my current build which I am happy with.


Not sure what your mages are doing but it is very rare for me too see a rogue out damage a mage. Especially a dagger rogue. See This Screenshot 2 rogues and a mage. We were all lvl 56-57 at the time iirc. See damage meters in upper right. Granted these are not 100% accurate but close enough to get a good idea of what I am talking about.
 
kick@ss said:
You must not have gotten very far in MC or done it that many times if no rogue stuff has dropped. Also, any rogue that uses hemmorage in MC would get booted from any raid I'm in.

If you're going to do the same comparison with swords as you do with pre 50 daggers to post 50 daggers, then swords/maces suck too. There's nearly as many opportunities to obtain "good" mid level daggers as there are to obtain "good" mid level swords.
Click to expand...

All you seem to talk about is MC this and MC that. So you have been there, get yourself a cookie and have fun. I will get there when I am ready but I have my own priorities atm.
 
DemisE said:
I can't stand the combat build at all. I was too slow in stealth and there were too many talents that I missed. As far as my point in Subtlety they were all points that I wanted with the exception of Hemmorage. I didn't really want or need it but couldn't find a better talent for my play style. As far as Theorycraftist post, yes I have read it and took note of what he had to say, But I have respeced so many times and I keep coming back to my current build which I am happy with.


Not sure what your mages are doing but it is very rare for me too see a rogue out damage a mage. Especially a dagger rogue. See This Screenshot 2 rogues and a mage. We were all lvl 56-57 at the time iirc. See damage meters in upper right. Granted these are not 100% accurate but close enough to get a good idea of what I am talking about.
Click to expand...
You must party with people who use incredibly bad gear. Rogues with at least halfway decent gear will always outdamage mages, unless there is a lot of AoE usage (which is rare). This is why when people fight Ragnaros they will opt for rogues over mages for DPS (that and because mages don't have the downtime).

The only SS I have of damage meters showing damage done:
Me (Dagger Rogue): 15.02%
Mage: 13.79%
Warlock: 11.24%
Combat Rogue: 10.14%
 
kick@ss said:
You must party with people who use incredibly bad gear. Rogues with at least halfway decent gear will always outdamage mages, unless there is a lot of AoE usage (which is rare). This is why when people fight Ragnaros they will opt for rogues over mages for DPS (that and because mages don't have the downtime).

The only SS I have of damage meters showing damage done:
Me (Dagger Rogue): 15.02%
Mage: 13.79%
Warlock: 11.24%
Combat Rogue: 10.14%
Click to expand...


Once again a lvl 10-50 is not going to give a damn about Ragnaros
 
DemisE said:
Once again a lvl 10-50 is not going to give a damn about Ragnaros
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No, but most of the damage dealing talents for backstab/ambush are easy to obtain. By level 30 you can have improved backstab, opportunity, and improved ambush.
 
kick@ss said:
No, but most of the damage dealing talents for backstab/ambush are easy to obtain. By level 30 you can have improved backstab, opportunity, and improved ambush.
Click to expand...


There is only 1 dagger that I have seen thus far that would make me reconsider my build and that is the Barman Shanker. Satyr's Lash Was pretty cool at 45-50, Shadowblade was about the same but nothing was doing damage like my swords.
 
I always wondered: Is Felstriker a once-a-minute proc or the standard 5% chance?
 
Talon Blackrazor said:
I always wondered: Is Felstriker a once-a-minute proc or the standard 5% chance?
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There are no timed procs. The rate of something procing may adjust depending on weapon speed (in the case of the crusader enchant, for example) so a slower weapon = higher chance to proc per hit. So in a way it's sort of timed, but not really. You could get 3 procs in a row and then nothing for 10 minutes straight. Felstriker is on a static % proc chance.
 
I was under the impression that there were some enchants and effects that could only proc once in a one minute period. Not guarenteed in that period, but once it did proc there was a one minute cool-down until you'd have the chance of it proccing again.
 
Talon Blackrazor said:
I was under the impression that there were some enchants and effects that could only proc once in a one minute period. Not guarenteed in that period, but once it did proc there was a one minute cool-down until you'd have the chance of it proccing again.
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I've yet to see that, but I haven't tried out every enchant first hand. Crusader goes off quite a bit (sometimes).
 
I think the specific enchant I had heard it mentioned about was Icy, and specifically why it was worthless to dual-wield two Icy Weapons since the proc was statically locked to one per minute. I'm not 100% sure, though.
 
There is a formula floating around that gives the ~proc of an enchant. (To be fair it was basically a guy that took each enchant and went around taking 100 swings with each enchant)

I know that warlocks chance on proc for firestone has been changes to about 33% on each swing and has been given a chance to crit.
 
I think a lot of it depends on your playing style. Many people are just much more comfortable with one style as compared to other builds. Try several different builds, then stick with what works for your playing style.

Unless it's 1 vs 1 PvP, I would go with the backstab build. I'm a backstab rogue and it works awesome for me, but I can't deny the power of a combat rogue in 1 vs 1. I've battled a few Orc combat rogues and the stun resistance can make them reallllllllly tough. The combat builds are, in my opinion, superior for grinding mobs and leveling...while I feel the backstab builds are superior for dishing out DPS in instances and for group PvP.

As a backstab rogue, gouge and crippling poisons were essential for grinding.

Play the style that you feel comfortable with.
 
kick@ss said:
http://www.thottbot.com/?i=20470
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Are ya kidding me? Look, it's obvoius that you are the type of person who plays 40 hours a week. For the other 99% of us, we can't hope to obtain things with 3% drop rates in high end instances. Can you post a link to your char on allakazahm or thottbot, etc? I'd like to see all your uber gear.
 
the@ntipop said:
Are ya kidding me? Look, it's obvoius that you are the type of person who plays 40 hours a week. For the other 99% of us, we can't hope to obtain things with 3% drop rates in high end instances. Can you post a link to your char on allakazahm or thottbot, etc? I'd like to see all your uber gear.
Click to expand...


You mean 0.3% drop
 
Hate_Bot said:
This has started pissing me off. Im he highest lvl in my instance group usually (lvl 24 warrior) and a priest healing me pulls like every single guy off.

Also, a mage sheeping one guy will also pull the mob off.

It's starting to piss me off, since the priest has to run away, I have to run after everyone all the time.
Click to expand...

I have not had an issue with aggro post patch. Either when playing my warrior or when playing my priest or rogue with another good warrior.

A warrior needs a little help from his group, but he is also a natural group leader, so it works out. You get rage from mobs beating on you, and many other classes don't understand that particular benefit that helps everyone... rogues especially seem to have an "I can tank it, don't worry" mentality (as long as they are being healed, which tends to chew up mana, but they don't really think or care about that... in general, I know there are good group rogues out there, but as with any class the bad outnumber the good). Explaining to them that feint can help you keep aggro that lets you gain rage to apply more sunders that allow them to do more damage is the best way I've found to get them to cooperate.

When I play my rogue I can't help but get caught up in seeing the huge damage numbers scroll avobe the mob's head... Many rogues are simplistic like this and the difference between no sunders and 5 stacked sunders is HUGE in terms of the numbers that start coming up with instance mob armor so high. I have seen as much as 30+% more damage because of sunder when using my special attacks like Eviscerate, backstab and SS. If you can get them to let you demonstrate this just once, you'll have them hooked on helping you keep aggro, even many of the ones who aren't very good.

If the priest is running away from you, you have a priest problem. The priest should:
1) fade
2) stand still or run towards you so you can get the mob off

It generally takes only one close shave or death for a priest to understand the issue with him running away while you are trying to pull aggro. Just let him know after the first time he does it and it creates a problem. Most priests don't like dying, will listen, and will understand that running really creates more problems than it solves.

When I play with guildies, they generally understand the need to lay off a bit in the beginning, so I can gain aggro on everything, then they can AoE or gang up on one mob as much as they want and not worry much about pulling aggro. But pickup groups are generally quite impatient, and it's near impossible to make them patient.

In this case I will, before the instance, designate someone Main Assist (or ask the party to designate someone main assist). Basically the function of MA is to be the person who coordinates attacks. At the beginning of each battle, everyone selects his portrait, hits 'F' to acquire his target, then beats the crap out of that target. A marked target with hunter's mark is even better for this... it's very easy to teach people to do this, and they are generally very willing to cooperate, as the 'F' key thing is generally new and they seem to like trying out new things.

In that case, as warrior, you use the 'F' key to get his target and IGNORE IT. Let someone else tank that mob, it'll go down quick enough that him not being a warrior isn't a big issue. I'll generally demo shout first to get a little aggro on everything, then sunder each one twice or sunder + revenge each one. This is generally enough to keep them all on you for a while. Just tab, sunder sunder, tab, sunder, revenge, tab, etc... and skip the one that has very low health, as that's the one people are ganging up on.

When I do this with my warrior, after the first goes down, very rarely do any of the other mobs come off me, even on a five or six pull. Pickup healers will love you, add you to your friends list and by the time you're higher level you will not have nearly as many problems finding healers as you do in the lower level instances, because healers will know you make things easy for them, and they will enjoy grouping with you as warrior.

That strategy has worked very well for me with pcikup groups, the DPS guys can do what they want (sit and pound out the damage), the healer is happy because he isn't fading and dodging mobs, and I'm happy because my instances go smoother and get finished faster with fewer wipes when playing with my warrior than with any other character I have.
 
DemisE said:
Not sure what your mages are doing but it is very rare for me too see a rogue out damage a mage. Especially a dagger rogue. See This Screenshot 2 rogues and a mage. We were all lvl 56-57 at the time iirc. See damage meters in upper right. Granted these are not 100% accurate but close enough to get a good idea of what I am talking about.
Click to expand...
hey, what mods are you using?
 
kick@ss said:
When you can ambush, gogue, backstab a caster and kill it while taking no damage there's plenty of ways it can be better for PvE leveling.
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Sigh, obviously you are stubborn. I can assure you though to the OP, 99 percent of the smart rogue community will agree with me here.
 
Rogues make baby Jeebus cry.

By the way, sword rogues are logistically the easiest to level. Consider switching to daggers end-game for sure, but before you get there it's just far, far easier to get some stupidly good 1-hand swords and good talents that suppliment it early on. For instance, Wingblade at level 15-23 from a quest in Wailing Caverns. Sword of Omen/Sword of Serenity from a Scarlet Monastery quest from 34-42. Vanquisher's Sword from a Razorfen Downs quest at level 38-46. Thrash Blade from a Maraudon quest at level 45-53. That doesn't even cover common blue boss drops or blacksmith forged stuff, let alone stuff you can buy at the Auction House. Those are all free blue quest rewards.

Dagger and 1-hand mace quest rewards are far less common (let alone good ones). One-handed maces and swords are more common boss blue drops than daggers in general.

Basically, if you want to level up quick, which you should, go sword and you won't have to worry about farming for good weapons. Then you can go daggers later when you can farm for Barman Shanker and/or farm for mats/money for a weaponsmith-made heartseeker.
 
Neurofreeze said:
Then you can go daggers later when you can farm for Barman Shanker and/or farm for mats/money for a weaponsmith-made heartseeker.
Click to expand...

Or you can farm Alterac Valley BG for the blue and purple daggers there (revered and exalted reputation required, respectively).

Also for those wondering about aggro changes post patch THERE ARE A FEW DIFFERENCES. It has something to do with blocks, dodges and parries being counted as hits now instead of misses. This would, natually, lead to more aggro for any attacking class than you had before. The change is subtle, however, so it is still very much possible to manage your aggro.
 
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