New SFF build advice please

[Aerlock]

Hey all, I'm new here after lurking for a while watching the NCASE M1 and trying to pick up as much info on the FT03-Mini as I can. I think I've put together a solid system here.

The Video card, CPU cooler, Optical drive, and short cable set are all in round two of my buying which is due in a month or two. I want to get the rest and get it together to replace my current system.

Now to answer the sticky questions and pose a couple of my own:

1. What will you be doing with this PC? Light Gaming (SWTOR, PoE, MWO) and general purpose usage. Mostly email and pics of the family but I will probably be doing some minor home video editing as well.

2. Will you be overclocking? Not intentionally

3. What's your budget? I'd like to keep everything under $1000

4. Where do you live? Just outside Nashville Tennessee. I will be buying everything through Amazon or Newegg though.

5. What exact parts do you need for that budget? Reposting build link from above

6. If reusing any parts, what parts will you be reusing? Monitors (2 Dell SP2309W), KB (no name), mouse (OCZ Behemoth), and SDDs (OCZ Vertex 2 115GB, Samsung 830 128GB).

7. What specific features do you need in a motherboard? Required: Mini-ITX, USB 3.0, 4+ SATA ports, 1 PCIe x16 slot, 8GB+ RAM capacity

8. What resolution output do you need? Dual 2048x1152

9. Does this system need to fit into a particular space and do you need an optical drive? Its going on top of a desk, potentially behind both monitors if it will fit between the dual monitor mounting arms and the monitors. An optical drive is in my phase 2 purchases for this system since I pretty much don't use the one I have in my current system.

10. How comfortable are you with custom case design/modification and electrical wiring? Never done any of it before and I'm willing, but nervous, to learn how to if I need to.
What tools do you have? Screwdrivers, Drill, Dremel

11. How important is the noise/silence of this sytem? The quieter the better, but I'm not going to spend crazy money or do major system mods to reduce noise.

12. How mobile does this system need to be? Semi portable. It'll spend most of its life on the desk but I may be taking it to a LAN party or two in the future.

13. Do you already have a legit and reusable/transferable OS key/license? Yes, 64 bit Windows 7

14. When do you plan on building/buying the PC? Immediately to a couple months down the line. If y build all looks good to you guys and the answers to my questions make me happy then as soon as I can get the money in one place and place the order.

My questions:
Has anyone ever tried to fit a 7850 into this case with this PSU? Did it work? What pitfalls do I need to look out for?

AMDs Kaveri APUs are due out this summer (I think?) should I wait for that or go ahead with the build I have?

Are there any other slot loading optical drives other than the Silverstone one I have in the build that will fit in this case? Where can I get them?

Is that Silverstone Short Cable set worth the money? Would I be better served by custom making my own cables?

- Aerlock

 

[XcPNehVYlE4A3C]

ft03 mini is basically the same as an SG05 stood on its end

doesn't the FT03 mini come with a PSU already?

2 ways I've seen to put an ATX psu in that case: above the mobo and sideways at the base. I have mine at the base on its side and I have to run the case with the cover off to allow the modular cable plugs to stick out a bit (and also to let the HR02 peek out of the top, but thats another story)

if you do decide to use your own ATX psu the short cable kit is well worth it, unless you have a high tolerance for frustration and a friend who already has the tools you'll need... or you want perfect length custom cables

 

[crABtoad]

FT03 Mini doesn't come with a PSU iirc... amazon or newegg don't have them listed as including them at any rate.

I guess the couple things the occur to me are:

AMD CPUs generate more heat and use more watts for the same, or less, performance. Makes them less than ideal for SFF builds. They're cheap though, I get it.

16GB RAM is a bit overkill, you could pick up some of that G.Skill sniper ram that runs at 1.25V, 1600MHz, CL 9. Sure, it's wacky looking, but it's good ram with low voltage and decent speed/timings for like half the price.

Graphics card... GTX 660 (not Ti) had a price drop at some point, and it's like $20 more than a 7850. EVGA GTX 660 SuperClocked is listed for ~$215 on amazon right now. Alternatively GTX 650 Ti is a good card that's a little cheaper.

I hope I don't come across as an AMD hater... These are just what I would recommend or what I would do in your place.

If you grabbed the SG05 you could save some more cash by using the 450W PSU that comes with it. It's about $120 for the SG05 on newegg right now, and that's including a sufficient PSU for this build.

This introduces some problems with fitting all those drives though... My gut says get the SG05, but it's not my build. Do what ye will.

 

[WiSK]

Has anyone ever tried to fit a 7850 into this case with this PSU? Did it work? What pitfalls do I need to look out for?

Is that Silverstone Short Cable set worth the money? Would I be better served by custom making my own cables?

Since the FT03-mini has a solid panel in front of the GPU, open shroud cards run very hot. Basically the fan will suck the card's hot air back around to the front. So you need what's usually called a 'reference' or 'blower' style cooler where the hot air is forced out the back of the expansion slot (reference 7850 review and pics here). Problem is that apart from EVGA, no OEMs use the reference cooler design, preferring to blow the hot air into the case. Bottom line is that your GPU is going to run hot, unless you don't mind getting an EVGA 660/670 instead.

PP05 Short cable set is a waste of $20 because the ST45SF-G stock cables are already that length, and the PCIe cable isn't compatible. Actually the modular cables will generally be more of an annoyance than a help because they bump into the 3.5" hdd tray. So unless making your own cables, bronze model ST45SF is easiest to fit, cheaper and quieter at idle.

 

[Aerlock]

FT03 Mini doesn't come with a PSU iirc... amazon or newegg don't have them listed as including them at any rate.

I guess the couple things the occur to me are:

AMD CPUs generate more heat and use more watts for the same, or less, performance. Makes them less than ideal for SFF builds. They're cheap though, I get it.

I've been a bit of an AMD fanboy ever since I switched over to them way back with their Barton CPUs so I went looking at them first. I've looked briefly at Intel for this build but it looked to me that equivalent performance was more expensive than the AMD CPU. Am I wrong?

16GB RAM is a bit overkill, you could pick up some of that G.Skill sniper ram that runs at 1.25V, 1600MHz, CL 9. Sure, it's wacky looking, but it's good ram with low voltage and decent speed/timings for like half the price.

The 16GB instead of 8GB is mainly just to max it out and not have to worry about any possible upgrades in the future since RAM is pretty cheap these days.

Graphics card... GTX 660 (not Ti) had a price drop at some point, and it's like $20 more than a 7850. EVGA GTX 660 SuperClocked is listed for ~$215 on amazon right now. Alternatively GTX 650 Ti is a good card that's a little cheaper.

It's been so long since I bought a video card (I'm running a Geforce 9800 GTX currently) that I pretty much just looked around at a couple Best for ~$200 lists and picked my card from there. I've thought about switching it over to a nVidia card but wasn't sure which would be best for both my wallet and power envelope in this build since the PSU I picked is 50 watts lower than recommendations on just about every video card I looked at.

I hope I don't come across as an AMD hater... These are just what I would recommend or what I would do in your place.

If you grabbed the SG05 you could save some more cash by using the 450W PSU that comes with it. It's about $120 for the SG05 on newegg right now, and that's including a sufficient PSU for this build.

This introduces some problems with fitting all those drives though... My gut says get the SG05, but it's not my build. Do what ye will.

Thanks for the feedback. No hater detected here, that's exactly what I'm looking for, peoples opinions. I'll have to look at the SG05.

Since the FT03-mini has a solid panel in front of the GPU, open shroud cards run very hot. Basically the fan will suck the card's hot air back around to the front. So you need what's usually called a 'reference' or 'blower' style cooler where the hot air is forced out the back of the expansion slot (reference 7850 review and pics here). Problem is that apart from EVGA, no OEMs use the reference cooler design, preferring to blow the hot air into the case. Bottom line is that your GPU is going to run hot, unless you don't mind getting an EVGA 660/670 instead.

Hrmm... I picked this card because I'd seen reviews saying that the HIS IceQ X were some of the more cool running cards. I'm gonna have to rethink the video card choice if this case is going to thwart any gains that the cooler style will get me. Maybe I'll give the 660 another look since that's 2 recommendations for it.

PP05 Short cable set is a waste of $20 because the ST45SF-G stock cables are already that length, and the PCIe cable isn't compatible. Actually the modular cables will generally be more of an annoyance than a help because they bump into the 3.5" hdd tray. So unless making your own cables, bronze model ST45SF is easiest to fit, cheaper and quieter at idle.

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for with this post. I'd have wasted 20 bucks without your info. I'll go take that cable set off my build right now. I've been rethinking putting the 1TB drive into this system since I have a WHS box with an open drive bay in it, so I'll just skip the 1TB drive for this build. Would going with the modular PSU and removing the 3.5" drive bay be a good alternative?

- Aerlock

 

[WiSK]

Thank you! That's exactly the kind of thing I was looking for with this post. I'd have wasted 20 bucks without your info. I'll go take that cable set off my build right now. I've been rethinking putting the 1TB drive into this system since I have a WHS box with an open drive bay in it, so I'll just skip the 1TB drive for this build. Would going with the modular PSU and removing the 3.5" drive bay be a good alternative?

Yes you could remove the 3.5" drive tray. But can I ask what are your motivations for wanting the modular version? Unless you want the better efficiency, there are more cons than pros with it in this case.

 

[Aerlock]

Yes you could remove the 3.5" drive tray. But can I ask what are your motivations for wanting the modular version? Unless you want the better efficiency, there are more cons than pros with it in this case.

The efficiency is why I went with the modular version. That and only having to use the cables I need instead of leaving the unused ones hanging in the case as I had read that its a tight case once you put in a video card. I also expect to need every spare bit of space if I go for the H60 cooler.

- Aerlock

 

[WiSK]

You'll probably use all the cables on the modular one. There's only five sockets: ATX, EPS, PCIe, Sata and Molex.

That reminds me you need some adapter for the slimline drive. They use a 7+6 connector instead of 7+15. There's the Silverstone CP10 which plugs into the Molex. Or search on Amazon/Newegg for the Startech slim Sata adapter (and then you won't need the Molex cable).

 

[crABtoad]

I've been a bit of an AMD fanboy ever since I switched over to them way back with their Barton CPUs so I went looking at them first. I've looked briefly at Intel for this build but it looked to me that equivalent performance was more expensive than the AMD CPU. Am I wrong?

i3-3220 will outperform the A10-5800K in gaming, image editing, video transcoding, and it will use about half the power doing so (at load levels). The price is pretty much the same right now. ($129.99 on Newegg).

The big thing the 5800K has is an unlocked multiplier so you can tinker with the clock better. Overclocking an AMD processor inside a tiny case doesn't sound like a great idea to me personally. I would like AMD to force Intel to compete not just in this price point, but all over the spectrum, and the A10 is a very close attempt at this price point
.

The 16GB instead of 8GB is mainly just to max it out and not have to worry about any possible upgrades in the future since RAM is pretty cheap these days.

DDR4 is right around the corner, isn't compatible with 240 pin slots, and it's money saved when you have a price ceiling.

Cheers!

 

[Aerlock]

i3-3220 will outperform the A10-5800K in gaming, image editing, video transcoding, and it will use about half the power doing so (at load levels). The price is pretty much the same right now. ($129.99 on Newegg).

The big thing the 5800K has is an unlocked multiplier so you can tinker with the clock better. Overclocking an AMD processor inside a tiny case doesn't sound like a great idea to me personally. I would like AMD to force Intel to compete not just in this price point, but all over the spectrum, and the A10 is a very close attempt at this price point.

I haven't looked at the Intel side of MiniITX much, what would be a good motherboard to match up with that i3? Taking a quick glance at NewEgg I see 5 different chipsets for the 1155 CPUs to pick from and I have no idea where to even start in differentiating them.

I don't have any plans to overclock. I went with the 5800K just cuz it was the fastest A series CPU and it fit in my budget.

- Aerlock

 

[crABtoad]

Asrock Z77E-ITX is considered by most to be the best, and one of the cheaper ITX boards at the moment... Some of the H77 boards are quite good, and can be had for less than Z77 counterparts but lack overclocking options.

Gigabyte GA-Z77N-WIFI is a pretty good "cheap" board as well.

If you have no interest in OC, you can safely grab an H77 and not tell the difference.

 

[WiSK]

Gigabyte GA-Z77N-WIFI is a pretty good "cheap" board as well.

Even on a board like this, which doesn't allow vcore adjustments, you can still bump up the multiplier and the LLC will help supply the right voltage. I think you're allowed +4 on non-K chips. Someone on OCN was saying he got his i5-3550 to 3978MHz on the Gigabyte board. Safe, light overclocking by changing two numbers in the BIOS

 

[Aerlock]

So I had a couple things change in my plans over the weekend. My current system bit the dust on Friday and I got a budget increase so I can get most, if not all, of the parts in one round of buying. Taking the advice of you kind folks, I went and part hunted up an Intel based system. With the increase in budget I was able to squeeze in an i5. I also swapped out the 7850 for a 660. Here's the link to the build. I put the Startech adapter in there because I had seen that if I used that the SilverStone optical drive comes with a molex powered adapter and I thought that if I used a SATA powered I could skip the molex cable on the modular PSU. Am I right?

For reference here is my AMD based part list to compare it to.

Do I have the current version of the H60 cooler in my parts lists? I found 2 different part numbers for it and while I think I have the right one, confirmation would be nice.

I also found a SilverStone Slim slot load Blu ray drive I added to both parts lists. Anyone used that particular dirve before? Is it any good? Pretty much all I'd use it for would be ripping blu rays to my NAS so I'm still on the fence about getting it.

Any thought or suggestions will be appreciated.

- Aerlock

 

[crABtoad]

So I had a couple things change in my plans over the weekend. My current system bit the dust on Friday and I got a budget increase so I can get most, if not all, of the parts in one round of buying. Taking the advice of you kind folks, I went and part hunted up an Intel based system. With the increase in budget I was able to squeeze in an i5. I also swapped out the 7850 for a 660. Here's the link to the build. I put the Startech adapter in there because I had seen that if I used that the SilverStone optical drive comes with a molex powered adapter and I thought that if I used a SATA powered I could skip the molex cable on the modular PSU. Am I right?

For reference here is my AMD based part list to compare it to.

Do I have the current version of the H60 cooler in my parts lists? I found 2 different part numbers for it and while I think I have the right one, confirmation would be nice.

I also found a SilverStone Slim slot load Blu ray drive I added to both parts lists. Anyone used that particular dirve before? Is it any good? Pretty much all I'd use it for would be ripping blu rays to my NAS so I'm still on the fence about getting it.

Any thought or suggestions will be appreciated.

- Aerlock

CW-9060007-WW is the 2013 Corsair H60, you've got the right one in your build. You can tell by the fan styling and the CPU block.

This is the old one.

I haven't really used an optical drive in at least a few years so I can't really comment on the SST one... By and large, Silverstone make great kit though.

The K-series processor seems like a strange match for the H77 chipset but apparently you will be able to take advantage of the unlocked multiplier with Ivy Bridge chips... This question's actually a little tricky for me right now and I have to leave immediately.

Links:
http://communities.intel.com/thread/29119
http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/archive/1914307

Rest of the build looks pretty spot on, good job.

 

[WiSK]

if I used a SATA powered I could skip the molex cable on the modular PSU. Am I right?

Yep

The K-series processor seems like a strange match for the H77 chipset but apparently you will be able to take advantage of the unlocked multiplier with Ivy Bridge chips...

The two limits of Ivy Bridge overclocking are: only Z77 boards have direct VCore adjustment; only -K chips allow more than +4 on the multiplier.

So with that i5-3570K chip you can put the multiplier as high as you like, but with the H77 you'll have to rely on the motherboard to auto-set the voltage. You might get it to x41 or x42. Maybe also a little on base clock ... maybe.

However, even if you moved up to the Gigabyte GA-Z77N-WIFI it won't help - unfortunately this is the one Z77 board without VCore adjustment. It only has 4-phase VRMs and 4-pin CPU power socket. So if you do want to go further than 4.2GHz then you need to spend an extra $20 for the Asrock Z77E-ITX. Other boards with voltage control listed here.

 

[Aerlock]

I have no intention of overclocking. The K series CPU was just cheaper than the non K.

Sounds like I have a decent build together. I'll buy the parts and put together a mini build log as I make progress.

Thanks for all the help and guidance.

- Aerlock

 

[WiSK]

Good luck with your build!

 

[crABtoad]

Cheers!

 

[Aerlock]

So I go to start buying parts today and what do I see in Neweggs shell shocker? Cheap Crucial 16GB 1600 Ram. This is what I was planning to buy.

Is the difference between CAS 8 and CAS 9 worth 30 bucks? If so would I be better to buy the 16GB kit or save a few bucks and buy two of these?

Thanks in advance.

- Aerlock

 

[crABtoad]

So I go to start buying parts today and what do I see in Neweggs shell shocker? Cheap Crucial 16GB 1600 Ram. This is what I was planning to buy.

Is the difference between CAS 8 and CAS 9 worth 30 bucks? If so would I be better to buy the 16GB kit or save a few bucks and buy two of these?

Thanks in advance.

- Aerlock

Hah, I was actually just rereading this thread... For memory... As long @1600Mhz for clock, and like CL9 for timing (which is pretty much the current "norm"), you're not going to be able to tell the difference outside of synthetic benchmarking... Human senses just aren't quick enough to tell the difference in most cases.

Is it faster? Sure, definitely. Worth the increase in cost? Not really unless you're building a serious rig that you want to benchmark constantly.

 

[Aerlock]

Hah, I was actually just rereading this thread... For memory... As long @1600Mhz for clock, and like CL9 for timing (which is pretty much the current "norm"), you're not going to be able to tell the difference outside of synthetic benchmarking... Human senses just aren't quick enough to tell the difference in most cases.

Is it faster? Sure, definitely. Worth the increase in cost? Not really unless you're building a serious rig that you want to benchmark constantly.

That's what I thought, but I didn't know enough about CAS latency vs RAM speed to be 100% positive. Thanks!

- Aerlock

 

[crABtoad]

No problem!

 

[Aerlock]

Another thing I just thought of: Will I need Thermal paste? If so what brand should I get?

- Aerlock

 

[crABtoad]

The stock TIM is pretty good on the Corsair H-series coolers... Unless you want to get fancy I'd recommend just leaving it as-is.

 

[Aerlock]

I hope since this was my thread originally I can avoid any thread necromancy problems. If not let me know and I'll start another one.

I've got two questions both related to this build. Sadly as I was purchasing parts for this I had to hold off on buying anything after getting the case, PSU, mobo, RAM, CPU and cooler. That killed my planned build log. Anyway on to the problems.

1.) I have been running the built in Intel GPU and connecting my monitor using the DVI cable. I've got an issue that I have not been able to track down a cause for. Whenever I'm using the computer my monitor will blank out for half second to a second. This is a random thing and I haven't been able to determine any kind of pattern. I have only noticed this in 2D mode, i.e. desktop use. When I have a 3D game going I don't have any problems. I have updated to the latest drivers and BIOS, tried a different monitor (I've got 2), tried old drivers, tried a different cable all with no luck. Any one have any ideas?

2.) Related to #1: Would this be a good GPU to put into this case? Do you think a GPU would solve my problems with the monitors blanking out? I know previously I had the EVGA 660 series recommended but I thought if I could squeeze a little more GPU power into the case it'd be a good thing.

- Aerlock

 

[Zap]

1) My mother's computer had the same problem. Intel IGP (socket 1156 Clarkdale Pentium G9650) and an old 1280x1024 19" NEC monitor. Clarkdale was Intel's first IGP integrated into the CPU package. When the monitor was hooked up to the DVI port, the picture would randomly blank out for a moment just as you are describing. I was never able to resolve the issue, so as a workaround I used the VGA port (monitor supported both). The problem went away, and I could not discern any image quality difference. I did not have a different monitor to try but I know that we were using the NEC monitor on DVI previously. Thus, the problem was either some strange compatibility problem (stranger things have happened) or some issue with the DVI port, IGP, drivers, firmware or some combination thereof. Things you can try would be updating motherboard BIOS and updating video drivers using latest from Intel especially if you used drivers from the motherboard CD. Also, in case it is some strange interaction, you can try changing some settings such as the refresh rate.

2) What case? FT03? I think that can hold just over 10" depending on if the PCIe power connectors are on top or on the end. Yes, the Asus GTX 670 Mini would work. I would have not recommended it in the past due to the price premium of the "Mini" part, but looks as if it has come down significantly. Whether you need the GPU power depends on your games. For instance, if you are looking forward to Battlefield 4, more GPU = better. If your game of choice is League of Legends, GTX 670 is way overkill.

 

[WiSK]

Asus GTX 670 mini is not recommended in the FT03-mini. Two reasons: it's open shroud, so would run very hot; and it's taller/wider that normal cards, so the PCIe connection bumps into the drive trays.

Just get an EVGA GTX 760 with closed shroud (Part Number: 02G-P4-2762-KR or 02G-P4-2761-KR). They are cheaper than the 670 and similar performance if you are just gaming.

 

[Zap]

Just get an EVGA GTX 760 with closed shroud (Part Number: 02G-P4-2762-KR or 02G-P4-2761-KR). They are cheaper than the 670 and similar performance if you are just gaming.

Good point. Doesn't the 760 also use less power than the 670?

 

[WiSK]

Good point. Doesn't the 760 also use less power than the 670?

Dunno. Same TDP at 170W. Higher clocks from factory, but two SMX units disabled instead of one.

 

[Aerlock]

Hope thread necro is ok when I'm the thread creator.

I've got a problem with my system that I've finally narrowed down. It seems that when I plug in certain USB devices (hard drives and thumb drives mostly) I get an immediate 0xF4 blue screen. When I reboot from the blue screen I occasionally lose my hard drive. Once I do a clean reboot the hard drive usually shows back up and I can plug in the USB drive without a problem. I am fully up to date on the drivers as far as I can tell from Gigabytes website.

EDIT:For reference I went with the GA-H77N-WIFI mobo.

Any ideas?

- Aerlock

P.S. The new GPU did resolve my monitor blanking problem if anyone is curious. I guess I'll never depend on Intels GPU when a Displayport is in the mix.

 

[Metrea]

I am new to building an SFF. for the past year i have been gathering parts and am nearing putting it all together.

My question is:

1: PSU
2: CPU cooler

I have the following as my parts.

CPU - i5-4670k
Motherboard - Gigabyte GA-Z87n-WIFI
RAM - Mushkin Blackline DDR3 2x 4GB
HDD - Crucial M4 128GB (adding several 7200rpm 2TB for data storage)
GPU - Nvidia 760 4gb or 770 2gb

i think i will probably be doing water cooling and i really want to get the Ncase M1 but i prefer just to build this into my work station so im not sure i can always reuse parts in other builds. but i want to finish this one first. if you can please give feed back i would greatly appreciate it.

this is my first post on this forum since joining. YAY

 

[cennis]

have the same mobo, great little board for overclocking
you need only a 500W and thats plenty of headroom.

ran 4770k 690 on a 650W overclocked.

 

[cennis]

A 450 silverstone sfx psu will be enough leaving you plenty of space for watercooling parts

 

[Metrea]

A 450 silverstone sfx psu will be enough leaving you plenty of space for watercooling parts

my question though is 450W isnt even the minimum for the GTX 760/770 isnt under powering not good?

 

[cennis]

450 can power a titan check out sg05 thread. alot of the times manufacture overestimate for bad power supplies, silverstone is solid.

 

[WiSK]

my question though is 450W isnt even the minimum for the GTX 760/770 isnt under powering not good?

The "Minimum Recommended System Power (W)" listed on the Nvidia site is for your whole system. They also overstate the minimum to avoid disappointment for customers that own a poor quality or overspecced PSU.

The value you should be looking at is "Graphics Card Power (W)". For the GTX 760 it's up to 170W, and for the GTX 770 it's up to 230W. Since the rest of the components you list will barely draw 100W together, you will be fine with the ST45SF-G.

For real life comparison, I'm running an i7-3770K and a GTX 660 ti. At stock they have similar power requirement as your choices. I've overclocked both my CPU and GPU, and I'm running a w/c pump. Yet my system draws less than 300W from the wall during heavy use. System has been running 24/7 for 14 months with no power issues.