New rig - Techguru advice needed please!

M

Maxi-

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Hello [H]ard!
Even though I’ve been browsing the site and the forums for a very long time, I’ve only now made a new account, as the last one seems to have vanished. I’m aware you often get this kind of questions, and although I’ve looked around a lot for information, read reviews, tests & comparisons, and I’m still not entirely decided about certain things.

I’m looking to replace my current rig which is getting awfully outdated (Athlon 2400+, 1Gb, Radeon 9700, WD Raptor). I’m quite into hardware and stuff, but as mentioned above I want to get it right this time. My budget is around 1000-1250 euros (800-925 pounds), that’s without monitor. (will keep dual-screen setup, have 2x 17” LCD) Besides the usual performance, ‘upgrade-ability’, and most bang-for-bucks I also want to keep the noise level down as much as possible, and some overclocking will be in order. Pc will be used for Gaming, Internet, Music, Video, Work etc, no plans of using it for ‘specialised’ programs/tools/calculations. So here I am, asking some advice to techguru’s and people who know more about this than I do! Can you help me get rid of my doubts?


Several issues I’m toying around with:

OS:
- Is Vista worth buying knowing that the good SP 1 is out soon? (Heard great things about it, RC was tested thoroughly) What’s the difference (compatibility? Performance?) between 32-bits and 64-bits, and is it worth getting Vista 64? I heard a Quad Core is needed to get ‘more’ out of the 64-bits version?

Hardware:
- Antec P-182 Case
- Mobo; X38 or P35 chipset? Going for DDR2, is X38 compatible? Always liked Asus, but any recommendations are welcome. Heard good things about P5K, P5N32-E SLI ?
- Core 2 Duo or Quad Core (ie Core 2 Duo E6750 or Quad Q6600) ? Any difference with the new 45nm Core 2 Duo E8400 etc?
- 8800 GT 512mb
- 2Gb or likely 4Gb of ‘high-end’ Ram; Corsair/Ocz/G.Skill. PC6400 (800 MHz) or PC8500 (1066 MHz)? Heard 4Gb only ‘works well’ with Vista 64?
- Two HDDs on a Raid 0, with an extra ‘storage’ HDD. 2x Hitachi Deskstar P7K500 or 2x Samsung Spinpoint T166 or WD Caviar SE16, all S-ATA at 320Gb & 16 Cache. Is it worth going for a 32 cache, I heard the more the better on a raid? (Raid 0 setting @ 64kb seems best?)
- Seasonic M12-500 PSU or any other recommendations? Has to be Silent & modular. 500W enough to make this rig run stable, with some average overclocking in mind?
- Noctua NH-U12P CPU heatsink & fan
- Dvd burner/mouse/keyboard/Vista should be included in the budget.


Thanks for your time, I’d appreciate any comments or advice, be it good or bad! :)
 
Note that the E6750 has been replaced by the E8400. There is no reason to consider an E6XXX series processor if you plan to spend around $200-$250 for a cpu. The best quad at the moment remains the Q6600 G0 stepping (and will remains so if you plan to seek a high overclock.) The dual core is the more attractive proc if you want to maximize gaming performance. For overall longevity, and for increased performance in multitasking scenarios, the Q6600 remains a better choice. You can easily crank out extra mhz from a processor, but you can't add cores. Note that PC-8500 RAM is a waste for the Q6600... you won't use the extra speed. Only consider PC-8500 RAM if pairing with an E8400 and only if you want a 4.5ghz+ OC.

As for the chipset, do not consider SLI or Crossfire -- it will be nothing but a waste for your setup (the resolution of a 17 inch monitor is well the 1920x1200 required to make use of it.) It will further limit your motherboard choices. Instead, consider a motherboard based on the P35 chipset. The Abit IP35 pro, Asus P5K series, and Gigabyte P35-DS3R or DS4 are all excellent options. Look at all and select based upon features and price.

As for Vista, it's certainly the recommended OS now for new hardware. Unless you have a very specific need or desire to stick with XP, most of us (myself included) highly recommend Vista. (Home Premium is the edition which best suites most home / gaming builds.) As for 64-bit vs 32-bit, that depends upon how much RAM you will have. If you are going to have 4 or more gigs, then 64-bit is a must. 32-bit Windows can only address four gigs MINUS the sum of the component memory installed in your system (i.e. memory in your video card.) Depending upon your video card setup, you will loose anywhere from 512 to 2 gigs of RAM if going with a 4 gig setup and a 32-bit OS.

Best of luck on the rig
 
Well said, Mark.

Adding on a bit...

The only true advantage the X38 chipset has over P35 is native CrossFire support, but since you are using two monitors, it's a moot point. X38 boards offer PCI Express 2.0 slots (unnecessary because today's video cards don't fully saturate the PCIe 1.0 bus -- and today's PCIe 2.0 cards are backwards-compatible with PCIe 1.0 slots), native CrossFire support (useless, as I mentioned earlier), and DDR2/DDR3 support (DDR3 memory is very expensive, especially compared to the rock-bottom prices that DDR2 RAM has cost recently). In the US, Asus brand motherboards are somewhat overpriced, compared to other brands, but that may or may not be an issue for you.

RAID 0, I believe, is overrated. Yes, a RAID 0 array is faster than any single drive, but it's not enough IMO to outweigh its main disadvantage -- you lose one drive, you lose all of your drives. It is worth it right now to get a HDD with a 32MB cache, as it runs a bit faster than one with just a 16MB cache (though you won't get more than a 10% increase in performance). And if you want a quiet drive, go with the Samsung SpinPoint T series (Seagates are comparatively noisier, but they still have the 5-year limited warranty).

As for memory, in most cases, you don't really need RAM faster than DDR2-800, as Core 2 Duo/Quad processors don't really benefit from having the RAM overclocked as well. For example:

E8400:
Multi x FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 x 333Mhz, DDR2 667 RAM = 3.0Ghz <== Stock Speeds
9 x 400Mhz, DDR2 800 RAM = 3.6Ghz <== Good OC

Q6600:
Multi x FSB, RAM Speed = Clock Speed
9 x 266Mhz, DDR2 533 RAM = 2.4Ghz <== Stock Speeds
9 x 333Mhz, DDR2 667 RAM = 3.0Ghz <== Good OC
9 x 400Mhz, DDR2 800 RAM = 3.6Ghz <== Excellent OC

(Unfortunately, there are few motherboards that provide a stable OC at a FSB speed of 500MHz, and I don't know of any personally.)

I'd say stick with DDR2 800 memory, unless you can obtain some DDR2 1000 RAM at a good price. And if you choose to purchase 4GB of memory, make sure you that you purchase a 2x2GB kit, so you could free the other slots for more in the future (not that you would really need more memory... 2GB is still the unofficial sweet spot).
 
Thanks for the replies guys, really appreciate the help!

It confirms what others have recommended me and what I've been reading about lately. I'm almost definitely going for an E8400, and likely an Asus P35 motherboard. Cheers for the heads up about the Ram speeds, too! DDR 2 800 it is, unless there's DDR2 1000 around equivalent prices, it'll just run at a lower speed automatically right (as well as easier to OC/ added stability for an average OC)? I've been told that (good) drivers are scarce for Vista 64, and that most applications & software won't function (well) with it. I guess the increase from 2 to 4Gb doesn't warrant the extra possible issues with Vista 64?
 
Maxi- said:
Several issues I’m toying around with:

OS:
- Is Vista worth buying knowing that the good SP 1 is out soon? (Heard great things about it, RC was tested thoroughly) What’s the difference (compatibility? Performance?) between 32-bits and 64-bits, and is it worth getting Vista 64? I heard a Quad Core is needed to get ‘more’ out of the 64-bits version?
Click to expand...

Vista SP1 only added a 1-2% increase in performance and didn't get rid of those annoying issues us techies like to bash. However, regardless of the complaints of myself and others who think Vista is a horrible idea as a whole; M$ is not going to give up on this OS. They've invested BILLIONS of dollars into Vista, and I don't see them dropping it like they did with Windows ME, (omg... so many broken monitors and keyboards...).
 
Maxi- said:
Thanks for the replies guys, really appreciate the help!

It confirms what others have recommended me and what I've been reading about lately. I'm almost definitely going for an E8400, and likely an Asus P35 motherboard. Cheers for the heads up about the Ram speeds, too! DDR 2 800 it is, unless there's DDR2 1000 around equivalent prices, it'll just run at a lower speed automatically right (as well as easier to OC/ added stability for an average OC)? I've been told that (good) drivers are scarce for Vista 64, and that most applications & software won't function (well) with it. I guess the increase from 2 to 4Gb doesn't warrant the extra possible issues with Vista 64?
Click to expand...

For a home gaming desktop, Vista x64 will likely perform well without any compatibility or support issues. Drivers for current, popular hardware (such as what you are considering to buy) are just as robust as their 32-bit equivalents. (They're anything but scarce now.) The only applications that won't function are those containing 16-bit code. Modern 32-bit applications will function just as well under Vista x64 as they do in a 32-bit OS. Unless you have a very specific need for an old, esoteric application, x64 bit Vista is absolutely worth considering.
 
paco16 said:
Vista SP1 only added a 1-2% increase in performance and didn't get rid of those annoying issues us techies like to bash. However, regardless of the complaints of myself and others who think Vista is a horrible idea as a whole; M$ is not going to give up on this OS. They've invested BILLIONS of dollars into Vista, and I don't see them dropping it like they did with Windows ME, (omg... so many broken monitors and keyboards...).
Click to expand...

There will always be people who are for or against a 'new' OS - I remember when XP came out, most 'techies' were ditching it first, like they do with Vista nowadays (Altho XP seemed more 'finished' at it's release than Vista was).
About your 'only 1-2% perf increase' - I've got the latest Hardware Magazine on my desk that has reliable tests about SP1. Sure, not everything has been speed up, but general 'reactivity' of the system has been boosted, and several things like file copy has been improved. There's a graph comparing the copy speeds of a certain file with and without SP1 - Vista 32 takes 182seconds to finish, Vista 32 with SP1 RC only 82 seconds. Seems quite an improvement! Another example is a benchmark with PCMark Vantage - Vista 64 scores 3671, Vista 64 SP1 RC 3968. Also, SP1 shortens boot time by about 6-7 seconds average.
There's a whole list of improvements, and although most of them wont affect an everyday user, they seem to have done quite a good job.
(oh well, might've been rambling a bit too much - let's not get into a Pro or Anti Vista discussion. ;) )


Markyip1 said:
For a home gaming desktop, Vista x64 will likely perform well without any compatibility or support issues. Drivers for current, popular hardware (such as what you are considering to buy) are just as robust as their 32-bit equivalents. (They're anything but scarce now.) The only applications that won't function are those containing 16-bit code. Modern 32-bit applications will function just as well under Vista x64 as they do in a 32-bit OS. Unless you have a very specific need for an old, esoteric application, x64 bit Vista is absolutely worth considering.
Click to expand...

Thanks for clearing that up Mark! If there's no big drawbacks/differences as you say, I'm very tempted to go for Vista 64 now, to add future compatibility with 4GB of Ram!
Only thing I'm hesitant about is the Raid 0 now. Is the speed increase not worth the extra 'risk' of losing data like tiraides said? I'm thinking of using a Raid 0 for two disks for the OS, Apps and Games, and a third to store work data, music, photos and videos... Still have doubts! :confused:
 
After having informed myself on several forums, read a lot of reviews, tests and comparisons, I've come to a near conclusion. :p

* Vista 64
* Asus P5k Premium Wifi/AP
* E8400
* 8800 GT
* 4Gb of DDR2 800 Ram
* Antec P-182 (possibly the SE )
* Corsair HX-520
* Noctua NH-U12P
* Samsung Spinpoint, 500 or 750Gb, 32 cache. (no Raid 0 after all)


Thanks everyone for the advice, it has been really helpful. Happy gaming! :D
 
Maxi- said:
Only thing I'm hesitant about is the Raid 0 now. Is the speed increase not worth the extra 'risk' of losing data like tiraides said? I'm thinking of using a Raid 0 for two disks for the OS, Apps and Games, and a third to store work data, music, photos and videos... Still have doubts! :confused:
Click to expand...

Many people use RAID as a way to protect the data on their drives should one of them go bad. RAID 0 doesn't protect any data, which is why I don't recommend it. (This Wikipedia article explains the concept of RAID better than I ever could in this post.) The benefit to having a RAID 0 array is that it's faster than any single non-SCSI hard drive. (But nowadays, the newer drives can compete with the Western Digital Raptor drives in certain benchmarks... IMO, the Raptor's speeds aren't worth its price premium.) You can still use RAID 0, but you should be fully aware of what it can and can't do. (And if anyone else can explain RAID better than me, please do so.)

And some other suggestions for CPU coolers (since I've never heard of the Noctua NH-U12P before, and in case you can't find it) are:

Thermalright Ultra 120 Extreme with one 120mm fan
Cooler Master GeminII RR-CCH-ANU2-GP with two 120mm fans
Sunbeam Tuniq Tower 120 (comes with one 120mm fan)
Scythe SCNJ-1100P Ninja Plus Rev.B (comes with one 120mm fan)
Thermalright Ultima 90 with one 92mm fan (can also support 120mm fans)

Some fans that we recommend are (low-/medium-/high-speed) the Yate Loon D12SL-12/D12SM-12/D12SH-12 (120mm x 25mm), the Scythe S-FLEX SFF21D/SFF21E/SFF21F (120mm x 25mm), and the Panaflo/Rexus NMB-MAT L1A/M1A/H1A (92mm x 25mm/120mm x 38mm).
 
I've read several reviews of the Noctua, including a good comparison in a Hardware magazine I always buy - it came out top 3 on most tests, cooling & noise. I'll check the availability of the ones you've posted, thanks! The Fans you mentioned are hard or impossible to get over here, I'll just be looking for fans with low Db (~20).

I've been advised a 8800GTS, but it's a whopping 120E more expensive. Do you think it's worth the extra price? I really like the idea of a direct hot air VGA output cooler, like the Arctic Cooling VGA silencer on my current Radeon 9700 Pro. Do you know if there are any good equivalents around for the 8800 GT?
 
If you have a 24 inch monitor, then the 8800GTS is the better choice. Check out the [H] review of the 8800GTS to see how it compares to the 8800GT. Otherwise, the 8800GT is the better choice in the best-bang-for-your-buck category. And here is another [H] review, this time comparing third-party VGA coolers for the 8800GT. (I don't know which ones would sell where you live, but they should work with the 8800GTS, should you decide to get that instead, as well.)
 
Cheers! The Accelero looks interesting, especially with the added fan module option. Knowing I'm only on a dual screen 17" LCD, I'm pretty sure I won't need a GTS, for now. ;)
 
*Bump*

Quick question - I can't seem to be able to find the difference between the Asus P5K Premium Wifi/AP and the Asus P5K Deluxe Wifi/AP, any ideas?
 
Almost 3 weeks later and I'm still waiting for the E8400 to be available over here. Apparently I have to wait another 1-2 weeks. ;)

My current 'very likely' list is:

- E8400
- Asus P5K Premium Wifi/AP
- 8800 GTS 512
- OCZ Gold GX XTC 2x2Go DDR2 PC6400
- Antec P-182
- Corsair HX 520 ou HX 620
- Samsung Spinpoint F1 750Go
- Noctua NH-U12P
- DVD burner NEC 7xxx
- Vista 64-bits


Only hesitation for the moment is - Is it useful/needed to get the 620W PSU instead of the 520W, knowing there's around 40E/30GBP/60US$ difference in price, and that I intend to overclock? Thanks once again! :)
 
For your setup, the 520HX would be enough. I'd also look at the non-modular 550VX (if it's available) if you're not comfortable with the 520HX (in the US, the 550VX is also cheaper than the 520HX).
 
Awesome! Wasn't sure, especially if I want to upgrade some components in a year or two. :)
 
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