New Power Generation and Propulsion System for Satellites

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rgMekanic

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Researchers at the Universidad Carlos III de Madrid (UC3M) and the Universidad Politécnica de Madrid have designed and patented a new propellantless system for satellites that allows generation of electric power and on-board thrust. Via electromagnetism, the tether can generate power passively as the altitude of the satellite lowers. Conversely, if there is available power for on-board use, the tether can be used to produce a thrust force that increases the altitude of the orbit.

I can't even pretend to understand the science behind this, but the potential is amazing. The article and video also goes on to say that this technology can help eliminate space debris, which in my reading a few years ago is a massive problem. Very cool stuff.

The system is based on what is known as a low-work-function tether, a thin, km-size aluminum tape of a few centimeters width with enhanced electron emission properties on receiving sunlight and heat. The tape, which is rolled up in a reel during the launch, is deployed once in orbit.
 
Just 'cuz you patent something doesn't make it functional or efficient. I question whether they'll produce enough 'thrust' to actually climb in altitude.
 
Seems like more and more, the first reaction to every news article about "new" or at least improved technology is:

"I don't believe it, its not possible"
"I severely doubt the potential of the claimed statistics of the article"
"I heard about this before, therefore this is old news"
"something else does the same thing, similarly or better... therefore this is useless"
"I don't like it, its ugly, something else is better"

I should not complain because that information IS HELPFUL and gives context to the article on the front page.
It's just...wow we are really a community of grumpy old men here (myself included).
 
nubbin77 said:
I should not complain because that information IS HELPFUL and gives context to the article on the front page.
It's just...wow we are really a community of grumpy old men here (myself included).
Click to expand...
Nah, we are just old enough to question every perpetual motion machine and cold fusion claim that comes over the wires.
I only believe stuff that shows up in my fakebook* feed. /s


*full disclaimer, i don't use fakebook.
 
nubbin77 said:
Seems like more and more, the first reaction to every news article about "new" or at least improved technology is:

"I don't believe it, its not possible"
"I severely doubt the potential of the claimed statistics of the article"
"I heard about this before, therefore this is old news"
"something else does the same thing, similarly or better... therefore this is useless"
"I don't like it, its ugly, something else is better"

I should not complain because that information IS HELPFUL and gives context to the article on the front page.
It's just...wow we are really a community of grumpy old men here (myself included).
Click to expand...

I object. While the proposal of generating energy by passing a length of conductor thru the Earths magnetic field has been studied and tested for decades, using it to apply new vector, I believe, should take substantially more energy than they expect to produce....and the article provides no numbers or links to explain their 'propulsion'
 
without some details, I'd say this almost sounds like that "lifter" idea that I recall seeing 20 or so years ago. Basically making a shape out of super light balsa wood and aluminum foil that attaching wires connected to an absolutely massive transformer you could create some sort of upward thrust. Wasn't really keen on the details that went into it.

A quick google shows this
https://newatlas.com/mit-ionocraft/26908/
and this video
 
rgMekanic said:
I can't even pretend to understand the science behind this
Click to expand...
otherweeb said:
I object. While the proposal of generating energy by passing a length of conductor thru the Earths magnetic field has been studied and tested for decades, using it to apply new vector, I believe, should take substantially more energy than they expect to produce....and the article provides no numbers or links to explain their 'propulsion'
Click to expand...

What do you mean by a new vector? You can use a long moving wire within Earth's magnetic field as a generator (useful for generating power and decelerating the spacecraft/lowering it's perigee). Add a power supply and drive a current in the opposite direction as that field and you get the opposite effect. This has been tested with satelites in the past.

It sounds like the real interesting aspect to this story is the roll-up tether design they're patenting.
 
nubbin77 said:
wow we are really a community of grumpy old men here (myself included).
Click to expand...

I call that "being realistic". Even at 31 (I don't think is "old man" territory at all) I see a lot of the stuff I use to get excited for being a lot less tame than I originally imagined or had hoped for.

Just learning more over time has changed my perspective dramatically. Like UFO's for example. I use to believe that aliens existed, giant government coverup, conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy, all that...but now? Not so much. I now, over time as I've learned more and have learned to curb my expectations I now look at UFO's completely differently. I now know that video and picture editing is a thing...so that eliminates a lot of the "evidence" of UFO's...people see shit that isn't there...there goes more evidence...weird natural phenomenon does occur that's not alien...there goes more evidence...government agencies DO have top secret unknown tech...there goes more evidence...

It's like at the end of the day, realistically, most UFO footage is either fake, government stuff, or it is actually "unknown" but even then who knows? Just because the DOD says they don't know what a UFO is/was doesn't mean that someone else might not know what it is. Ya know?

Meh, plus with stuff like this I see it no different as the miracle cure for cancer or AIDS that has popped up every 6 months before it never happens or we never hear of it again.

Same here...past few years has been filled of the energy creation thing to this interstellar traveling tech...nothing happens.

Grumpy? Perhaps. I see it more as "I've heard it all before either do it or don't!".
 
How does it eliminate space debris? It sounds like they are just using that wording when they really mean it will produce less space debris in the future versus existing technology. Not the same thing at all. The space debris that already exists isn't falling out of orbit fast enough for us to continue on this path.
 
DedEmbryonicCe11 said:
How does it eliminate space debris? It sounds like they are just using that wording when they really mean it will produce less space debris in the future versus existing technology. Not the same thing at all. The space debris that already exists isn't falling out of orbit fast enough for us to continue on this path.
Click to expand...

Yes I'm not sure on this. They almost seemed to be talking about two things, that being a) the foil tape to collect energy and b) a low earth orbiting satellite to shove space debris out of orbit
 
DeathFromBelow said:
What do you mean by a new vector? You can use a long moving wire within Earth's magnetic field as a generator (useful for generating power and decelerating the spacecraft/lowering it's perigee). Add a power supply and drive a current in the opposite direction as that field and you get the opposite effect. This has been tested with satelites in the past.

It sounds like the real interesting aspect to this story is the roll-up tether design they're patenting.
Click to expand...

vector=a quantity having direction as well as magnitude (thrust? I'm not a rocket scientist)

I can find a reference to the propulsion method and debris collection:

https://books.google.com/books?id=rpUkDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA53&lpg=PA53&dq=climb+a+magnetic+fields+space+tether&source=bl&ots=RhCz_Yc_Nf&sig=ZWFF9_e7bgQlY8JZoM5i74aKQuU&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwix69KbouLYAhVC9WMKHbWDCfQQ6AEIPjAH#v=onepage&q=climb a magnetic fields space tether&f=false
 
DedEmbryonicCe11 said:
How does it eliminate space debris? It sounds like they are just using that wording when they really mean it will produce less space debris in the future versus existing technology. Not the same thing at all. The space debris that already exists isn't falling out of orbit fast enough for us to continue on this path.
Click to expand...

I think the idea is that it extends the useful life of satellites and allows for rapid deorbiting of satellites at higher altitudes which would normally take forever to decay from atmospheric drag. As long as the spacecraft has power it can manipulate it's altitude without having to expend propellant.

The main problem with these tether systems in the past has been the weakness of the tether itself. A 20km tether flown on a Shuttle mission was able to generate power for over 5 hours, but the cable insulation failed causing the tether to short circuit and snap.
 
Mut1ny said:
I call that "being realistic". Even at 31 (I don't think is "old man" territory at all) I see a lot of the stuff I use to get excited for being a lot less tame than I originally imagined or had hoped for.

Just learning more over time has changed my perspective dramatically. Like UFO's for example. I use to believe that aliens existed, giant government coverup, conspiracy conspiracy conspiracy, all that...but now? Not so much. I now, over time as I've learned more and have learned to curb my expectations I now look at UFO's completely differently. I now know that video and picture editing is a thing...so that eliminates a lot of the "evidence" of UFO's...people see shit that isn't there...there goes more evidence...weird natural phenomenon does occur that's not alien...there goes more evidence...government agencies DO have top secret unknown tech...there goes more evidence...

It's like at the end of the day, realistically, most UFO footage is either fake, government stuff, or it is actually "unknown" but even then who knows? Just because the DOD says they don't know what a UFO is/was doesn't mean that someone else might not know what it is. Ya know?

Meh, plus with stuff like this I see it no different as the miracle cure for cancer or AIDS that has popped up every 6 months before it never happens or we never hear of it again.

Same here...past few years has been filled of the energy creation thing to this interstellar traveling tech...nothing happens.

Grumpy? Perhaps. I see it more as "I've heard it all before either do it or don't!".
Click to expand...

Being gullible and being presented with scientifically-based research are two different things. UFOs and the like fall into the former, new discoveries in propulsion, battery chemistry, finding earth-like planets falls into the later.

Proclamations such as this without a demonstration and deeper scientifically-proven means discussed should be approached questionably though

I am curious to learn more about this in any case. I'd like to know where the electrons are coming from that will be emitted a solar panel? It also makes me curious if it requires electricity could why not instead use a thin metal coil within the stage and an electro-magnetic field be created in a way to use the Earth's magnetic field to either speed up or slow down (this would be very slow though over time could decay/grow the orbit.
 
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DedEmbryonicCe11 said:
How does it eliminate space debris? It sounds like they are just using that wording when they really mean it will produce less space debris in the future versus existing technology. Not the same thing at all. The space debris that already exists isn't falling out of orbit fast enough for us to continue on this path.
Click to expand...

What they're saying is it will decrease future space debris from future missions. Not current space debris.
 
I'm shocked that this gets a patent. Might have to do with the specific implementation details. This is a very old concept. From the 1970s at least. Earth's magnetic field, spacecraft motion with some East-West component and electrical current in the tether are the 3 axes. If you have any 2 you will get the 3rd. Left hand rule at work. When working, this system transfers momentum between the Earth and the satellite.
 
sfsuphysics said:
without some details, I'd say this almost sounds like that "lifter" idea that I recall seeing 20 or so years ago. Basically making a shape out of super light balsa wood and aluminum foil that attaching wires connected to an absolutely massive transformer you could create some sort of upward thrust. Wasn't really keen on the details that went into it.

A quick google shows this
https://newatlas.com/mit-ionocraft/26908/
and this video
Click to expand...

I don't think this is the same principle as the patent. The Ion lifter uses a fluid to generate thrust. It ionizes the molecules and accelerates them between the electrodes to generate a jet, providing thrust. The patent is a method to provide thrust in a vacuum by coupling the spacecraft with the Earth's magnetic field. A moving current carrying conductor in a magnetic field will generate a force allowing orbital changes. You can either increase the orbit or de-orbit the craft depending on the current direction in the tether
 
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