New member, lots of questions.

C

cp_kirkley

Limp Gawd
Joined
Oct 4, 2012
Messages
187
Hi guys, this is my first post on hardforums as a member, although I have been trolling your site for years to get info, reviews, etc.

I have just finished a new build. Specs are as followed:

Case: Corsair 550D
PSU: Seasonix X850 80 Plus Gold
Mobo: Gigabyte Z77X-UP4 TH
Proc: i5 3570k, Stock clocks - Cooled by H80
RAM: 16GB Corsair Vengeance DDR3 1600
GPU: Sapphire 7950 (950 OC Edition) x 2
HDD: Crucial M4 256GB, 150 GB Velociraptor, 120 OCZ Nocti in MSATA
DISP: Alieanware AW2310 bookended by two LG Flatron IPS235
MISC: Logitech G13, g9x, K800 keyboard and Wireless Touchpad

Overall I found myself very happy with this build. Rock solid temps, stable for a month - there isnt a game I cant run maxed on one monitor (or 3 when I feel the eyefinity itch) until I decided to run this in a dual boot/hackintosh setup. Basically the 7950's aren't, and may never be, supported by OSX. I could keep the 7950s in, but they would not support any type of GPU acceleration. Conversely I could use the integrated HD4000, but why the hell would I do that when I have such muscle at my disposal? I dont have the PSU (or the space, or the heat dissipation means) to carry a third card (660 ti, 670) specifically for OSX use. I have to replace the cards.

The goal of this system was to keep minum frames at vsync'ed 60fps in Eyefinity resolutions. That said, I have been researching the potential replacements, and am torn between a 2 and 4GB 670. Does anyone think I can at least get into the ballpark of the perf I get now in CF with a single 670, or is SLi pretty much a must if I want to keep my minimum framerate above 40 at 5760x1080? Does the bandwith disparity of the two cards pose enough of an issue to be concerned about? Does 4GB on make a difference even if its running on 256 bit? If SLI is the only solution to my problem, can I add a 2GB 670 to a 4GB down the road and still have the mem register as 4GB, or will it drop back to lowest common denominator? And then going further, is anyone interested in trading? :D

Furthermore, I am switching from eyefinity, which has MUCH looser rules regarding the 3 screens, to surround. My monitors are all 23" with matching resolutions, but I kept my AW2310 because I liked still having the option of running games at 100+ fps when I wanted to. From what I understand, I might get lucky with the sync polarity, but I have no idea how to check these things - the LG monitors make no mention of this in the physical manuals, nor have I found info on them online. Does anyone know this offhand, or point me in the direction of a repository for info like this? If not then I guess I've got to sell the Alienware, but then I'm pissed because I'll have to consider replacing all three screens. While LGs are solid IPS screens as side monitors, I would not want one of them as my centerpiece. Much rather find some u2311's if thats the case.

For anyone thinking I should not care about OSX, I am commited to having the hackintosh, as its my wifes preferred OS and her MacPro (which has been a piece of shit since I bought it several years ago) has died and she needs to use my rig for the time being until i decide what to do with her needs.

Thanks for listening to my rants/questions. If you have any constructive answers or suggestions, or offers for that matter, feel free to let me know. and to reward those of you who actually take time to read my drivel - some screens...











Edited for typos
 
Are you seriously intending to play games while booted into OSX? What Mac games do you want to play ?

Is surround supported by OSX? Why would you go to such trouble ?

Basically, do you really need gpu acceleration for OSX? Why wouldn't the HD4000 work fine for what your wife needs?

There's so many more games & uses for aftermarket video cards when used in a windows environment. I can't even imagine why you'd buy game programmed for OSX. Are there any OSX games worthwhile of talking about that don't have a Win7 version?

Sorry, I haven't answered any of your questions. I don't understand your motives.
 
I don't understand either, why does your wife need such GPU power when in OSX?

The 670 is pretty much on par or slightly faster than the 7950 at stock clocks so no, one 670 will nowhere near replace 2x 7950's especially at triple screen resolutions.
 
Surround isnt supported in OSX, nor is eyefinity. I have no intention of gaming in OSX. My wife is freelance videographer who uses CS5 and Final Cut - both utilitze the GPU/CUDA to assist in transcoding data. Have any of you ever had the "pleasure" of enconding video via onboard?

I do ALL of my gaming in Windows, and when I do dabble in little 3d modeling projects and such, I do so in the windows environment. Which is why the dualboot option is viable - I get the best of both worlds in one machine. Once I decide what to do about replacing her dead machine, I'll just delate the mac partition and go on about my day. The problem is that since the 7950's GPU is useless in OSX, I have to switch. The performance of ANY video card in OSX is pretty inconsequential to me, I could put in a 6870 and call it a day if all I cared about was OSX compatibilty. The problem white the 6870 (the newest AMD card supported by OSX at this time) is that is slow as all hell and stands no chance of doing what I want in windows.

What I need is a powerful GPU setup to power my needs in windows, while satisfying the requirements of the other operating system. I have narrowed my sights down to a 670, maybe even a 680, but now need help in determining JUST how much power I would need 2 or 4GB, SLI or not(considering 40 FPS minimum in surround resolutions as a requirement), and some help regarding sync polarity and my monitors. Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Regarding SLI in OSX, it is not supported, however, one does not need to disable/disconnect the cards in order for OSX to just use the one card.


Edit @ SL2h - I understand I cant TOTALLY replace the power of 2 with one, I know that ultimately I'll have to buy two. But given my original requirements have been adjusted, from 60 fps minum, to 40 - can a 670 or 680 handle that in surround? Then I'm thinking I can wait a couple of months, or til black friday, to add the second and get back to my 60FPS goal.
 
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I like to take a minimalist approach.

From what I've read, the 670's can be overclocked fairly well and save you $100 off the bat.
I would buy a single 670 now and see how it performs for your resolution. If you find that the performance is not enough, buy another.

I imagine if you want sustainable 60 + fps with all graphics details on high, you will need SLI at your resolution.
2GB vs 4GB is entirely dependent on the games you play and how high of details you want.

I've read multiple posts from other users stating that 4GB is necessary for eyefinity/surround in a few games. I can't remember which ones.
 
cp_kirkley said:
Surround isnt supported in OSX, nor is eyefinity. I have no intention of gaming in OSX. My wife is freelance videographer who uses CS5 and Final Cut - both utilitze the GPU/CUDA to assist in transcoding data. Have any of you ever had the "pleasure" of enconding video via onboard?

I do ALL of my gaming in Windows, and when I do dabble in little 3d modeling projects and such, I do so in the windows environment. Which is why the dualboot option is viable - I get the best of both worlds in one machine. Once I decide what to do about replacing her dead machine, I'll just delate the mac partition and go on about my day. The problem is that since the 7950's GPU is useless in OSX, I have to switch. The performance of ANY video card in OSX is pretty inconsequential to me, I could put in a 6870 and call it a day if all I cared about was OSX compatibilty. The problem white the 6870 (the newest AMD card supported by OSX at this time) is that is slow as all hell and stands no chance of doing what I want in windows.

What I need is a powerful GPU setup to power my needs in windows, while satisfying the requirements of the other operating system. I have narrowed my sights down to a 670, maybe even a 680, but now need help in determining JUST how much power I would need 2 or 4GB, SLI or not(considering 40 FPS minimum in surround resolutions as a requirement), and some help regarding sync polarity and my monitors. Hope this clarifies things a bit.

Regarding SLI in OSX, it is not supported, however, one does not need to disable/disconnect the cards in order for OSX to just use the one card.


Edit @ SL2h - I understand I cant TOTALLY replace the power of 2 with one, I know that ultimately I'll have to buy two. But given my original requirements have been adjusted, from 60 fps minum, to 40 - can a 670 or 680 handle that in surround? Then I'm thinking I can wait a couple of months, or til black friday, to add the second and get back to my 60FPS goal.
Click to expand...

Maybe get CS and final cut for windows? Just a thought.
 
J Macker said:
gee, spend $1000-$2000 for software that he already owns?

No thanks.

He might as well buy a dedicated Mac instead.
Click to expand...

I wasnt sure how much those were, since I dont use em. :)
If they are that much then yeah, not worth it.
 
I have both types of systems you are discussing.

I have an X79 based platform that runs Crossfired HD 7970s
I have an X58 based platform that runs SLi'd GTX 670s.

I game exclusively in three monitor at 5670 x 1200 portrait.

The 670s are 2 GB MSI OC models. They are roughly 12% "slower" than the 7970s, but I have not found a game they cannot run aggressively at 70 FPS on an average. Average clock speed is 1265 MHz at full load, while the 7970s run at 1125 MHz.

That said if you can afford it, I'd buy 4GB 680s if you are really serious about minimum framerates.
 
Hagrid said:
Maybe get CS and final cut for windows? Just a thought.
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Final Cut is developed and produced by Apple. Just a thought. Theyll NEVER release it for windows use unless they stop making computers.

Furthermore, even in CS which I definitely could just drop another 1700 bucks into another license :confused:, the plug and play support of almost any professional and consumer camera in existence makes the Mac version simpler to use.

There are many cameras are finicky with the import function in Premiere for windows. My personal camera, Canon HV30 (aging, I know) doesnt get picked up by 3 of the 4 windows machines in the house. Instantly recognized in iMovie. Not to say that OSX is better than windows, but in some cases, its less troublesome.

edit - Thank you, Magoo. This is kinda what I was looking for. My main issue of concern was if the 2GB and 256 bitrate of the 670 would prove to be a bottleneck at the higher resolutions. For the sake of saving a little bit of coin I'll probably stick to the 670, as your system uses the extra vertical pixels and I'd probably benefit a couple extra frames due to that. I probably could do a pair of 680's, but I dont know how much I can convince myself to spend that much more for not a TON more performance.

Would anyone happen to have any expierence with the sync polatity of these monitors? Websites just dont offer this info anymore.
 
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Sorry for the double post, but just an idea - that I felt should be completely separated from my my post.

I was just mulling over the thought of taking such a heavy loss on my GPU's to sell and replace, when I had the thought to buy something along the lines of a GT 640 GPU for use exclusively in OSX. I could set the bios to read off that card first when booting. It would work fine in OSX. as the 7950's would just go one being unaccelerated - I could see if they can be disabled in the OS. Conversely in Windows I can disable the 640 in favor of the 7950's. Too bad I cant use the 640 as a Physx card. I actually think this could work very nicely. Virtually no heat produced by a 640, and it wouldnt require a molex from my PSU I can run off the mobo. 640 would be at LEAST on par with the 650m you'd get in a recent Macbook Pro.
 
The CUDA performance between the low end Fermi cards and the highest end Kepler cards is essentially zero. Despite what may think of Final Cut, or your wife in this case, the times won't be drastically reduced regardless of what GPU you opt to go with. Secondly, check if it's openCL supported. Adobe CS6 is openCL supported, thus you can opt to go with a the AMD 6xxx class GPUs that Apple supported in their last gen products. And is the acceleration that quick? How much work does she do with Final Cut that it makes GPGPU a requirement? Currently, only a few tasks are CUDA and openCL accelerated, with the vast majority of work still done by CPU.

Just buy a cheap Fermi card and use it when booting into OS X. This way you won't have to sell your current GPUs. The consumer Kepler cards suck at GPGPU anyway.
 
How much CUDA performance does your wife need? E.g., you could get a single-slot GeForce GTX 650 with 384 CUDA cores for ~$120. It's hard to tell from the pictures if that would fit in your case, and it's cheap enough where you could upgrade to a new PSU if you'd need to.

Just an idea.

This is another thing I like about NVIDIA -- works on everything from Windows to Solaris.

edit: oops, just saw your update... making this post redundant.
 
jwcalla said:
How much CUDA performance does your wife need? E.g., you could get a single-slot GeForce GTX 650 with 384 CUDA cores for ~$120. It's hard to tell from the pictures if that would fit in your case, and it's cheap enough where you could upgrade to a new PSU if you'd need to.

Just an idea.

This is another thing I like about NVIDIA -- works on everything from Windows to Solaris.
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Actually you may be right. The hardware support on a Hackintosh would dictate the generation of cards.

Just buy the cheapest Kepler-based card if you really need it. Though to be quite honest, with that CPU you're not going to notice much of a difference in times at all. GPU-acceleration for Adobe kind of sucks. If it's her hobby, don't trouble yourself. If it's for work, then quit screwing around with a Hackintosh and buy her something ASAP.
 
pelo said:
If it's her hobby, don't trouble yourself. If it's for work, then quit screwing around with a Hackintosh and buy her something ASAP.
Click to expand...

OTOH, it wouldn't be such a bad idea to work out a stop-gap measure until the next gen Mac Pros come out since the current release is a bit stale (Nehalem CPU architecture, old ATI cards, etc.).

Though I agree... CUDA / OpenCL performance might not be so hot for these workloads.
 
pelo said:
The CUDA performance between the low end Fermi cards and the highest end Kepler cards is essentially zero. Despite what may think of Final Cut, or your wife in this case, the times won't be drastically reduced regardless of what GPU you opt to go with. Secondly, check if it's openCL supported. Adobe CS6 is openCL supported, thus you can opt to go with a the AMD 6xxx class GPUs that Apple supported in their last gen products. And is the acceleration that quick? How much work does she do with Final Cut that it makes GPGPU a requirement? Currently, only a few tasks are CUDA and openCL accelerated, with the vast majority of work still done by CPU.

Just buy a cheap Fermi card and use it when booting into OS X. This way you won't have to sell your current GPUs. The consumer Kepler cards suck at GPGPU anyway.
Click to expand...

She works on an average of 7-10 projects a month, and has been for several years. Bar/Bats, sweet 16s, other random parties, small weddings, makes enough that I can justify replacing the now dead mac pro (5870 with a dual core Zeon) with a new one, or another machine with comparable ability. She is just now, over the last 6-8 months or so, getting into multicamera projects and heavier duty things that frankly Im not too versed in.

I have considered using a 6XXX, but support is a little spotty when it comes to the level of cards that my build could support (from a power standpoint) if I were to keep in my 7950's. 66xxs and the like are extremely hit or miss, dependent on "kexts" provided by god knows who these days, on motherboard bios, manual boot.plists, which pci-E slot the card is in, etc. The only ones that work really well are 67-6800's, 69xx doesnt work at all. I wanted to avoid that headache and use the generation of GPU for which Mountain Lion is currently using.

jcwalla - you just pegged it - this is a stopgap measure, while I decide what to replace her machine with. She already has a 27 inch cinema display, and Im not keen on the legwork of selling that, and then putting down 2 grand on an iMac with a laptop gpu. Nor is she interested in the Macbook Pro, she has a macbook air - and likes to keep her work off her laptop unless its a consultation. meanwhile im not paying 3000 on a new "old" MacPro.
 
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You probably know this already, but if your wife wants to use the triple monitors, you'll need a Kepler card as Fermi is only dual-monitor. Some 600-series are Fermi-based I believe. Seems like her work could really benefit from extra screen space.
 
We've been looking into it - currently she has the 27 - and I've thinking about getting her a secondary 27 incher (although 1080p instead of 1440). She loves my setup lol, but hates windows. If I get her a second monitor, Ill have to mount it on an arm, though, as her desk is small and the Cinema DOMINATES it.

Its like watching the fat guy ride a tricycle at the circus :D

the more Im thinking about it, I am really leaning towards the 640/650 - if Final Cut and Adobe arent as GPU hungry as I thought before, then maybe this will work for the interim, and I can start building a machine around it and just go hard on the cpu and ram.
 
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Just wanted to give an update to my dilemma/situation - I've opted to pick up a basic 640 from best buy (on sale for 100 bucks + a couple of old game trade ins = 70). Its a single slot Galaxy card, so I know it will fit withing my remaining chassis space, pulls its power from the Pcie slot and I'm looking forward to going physx with it. Further more I'll spend some more time benching this to see if I can life with the current case or if I should bump up to a full sized case with an E-ATX mobo. Only thing that worries me now is how much performance I'll lose with all three PCIex slots filled. My Mobo (Gigabyte z77x-up4 th is currently at 8-8 right now, but will drop to 8-4-4 with the new card. The rabbit hole gets deeper and deeper every build...

Those of you doing the hybrid hack - just to clarify before I pull the trigger on a 1GB card - the memory of the card is irrelevant, correct? If my 7950's are doing all the heavy lifting I would imagine the 640 should be fine for this and not be taxed at all form a bandwith standpoint.

My wife has decided to go with the 27 inch iMac to replace the Mac Pro, which I'll pick up right after the new year when I file and recieve my return. And we'll just keep the original Cinema display she has so she can now use two - and actually get her a desk to fit them both.
 
I hate looking like I'm double posting, but its been 5 days, so...

An update to any interested parties, as few as there are, lol. I recieved my 640 a couple days ago, but only had the time to put the bitch in last night. For the time being the 7950's were sitting on my workbench. Installed the Nvidia driver suite and low and behold - Surround worked perfectly with my monitors (AW2310 with LG IPS235 on each end) first shot! No tweaks, no EDID editing, just plugged and went. Also, I was able to delete some extra lines from my boot.plist on the hackintosh end and immediately working QE/CI with HDMI audio.

After air humping with exaggerated fervor and terrifying my wife with my screaming, I reinstalled a single 7950 and tried to get hybrid Physx working. but after 15 minutes of downloading and editing file directories, I just dont have the patience to do that crap anymore. I'm going back to selling the 7950's and getting a pair of 4GB 670's (within the next 20-25 days so I can return the 640...) - its just simpler and I work too hard to come home and work on trying to have fun. I wanted to play games on this thing, not spend all night every night tweaking shit. Those days are past - lol. That said I'm leaning towards the EVGA 670 SC w/ backplate, but if anyone has a reason I SHOULDNT get these, feel free to give your reasons plus a suitable replacement. Am I being a homer for just defaulting to 4GB when I could save a few bucks with the 2GB?

On another note - Since I pulled my 7950's out, I tried playing borderlands 2 on the 640 (had to reduce the res to 720, and started laughing as I thought to myself - This is what a good looking game on Xbox looks like :D
 
J Macker said:
gee, spend $1000-$2000 for software that he already owns?

No thanks.

He might as well buy a dedicated Mac instead.
Click to expand...
Or... get Adobe Creative Cloud subscription to get access to all Adobe CS6 products with the latest and greatest versions.

I pay $30/mo (student discounted) and have everything. A lot cheaper than buying full blown retail product. On the same subscription, I have it installed on two computers (personal laptop and personal workstation). I called Adobe to ask if I can do this before installing stuff on my laptop, and the guy said that as long as you're not like installing it on other people's computers and just keeping it to yourself for yourself, you're good.
 
aronesz said:
Or... get Adobe Creative Cloud subscription to get access to all Adobe CS6 products with the latest and greatest versions.

I pay $30/mo (student discounted) and have everything. A lot cheaper than buying full blown retail product. On the same subscription, I have it installed on two computers (personal laptop and personal workstation). I called Adobe to ask if I can do this before installing stuff on my laptop, and the guy said that as long as you're not like installing it on other people's computers and just keeping it to yourself for yourself, you're good.
Click to expand...

I prefer to not do a subscription route, because she actually makes enough from this to afford paying for the suite. Its more out of pocket up front, but much easier to track when following a expense budget set in the beginning of the year. I hate having my cards contantly pinged with "tiny" charges here and there. Charged it to the game, got some gas points out of it, and paid back after 3-4 months without affecting my primary account's in/out flow.
 
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cp_kirkley said:
I prefer to not do a subscription route, because she actually makes enough from this to afford paying for the suite. Its more out of pocket up front, but much easier to track when following a expense budget set in the beginning of the year. I have having my cards contantly pinged with "tiny" charges here and there. Charged it to the game, got some gas points out of it, and paid back after 3-4 months without affecting my primary account's in/out flow.
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Heh, okie dokie.

At our company, we use Adobe Creative Cloud subscriptions. It has certainly saved a lot of money, especially considering how often Adobe has major updates/releases for a fee and what it would all cost collectively otherwise for the full blown Creative Suite (every program and their huge retail prices). ;o
 
you could probably get a decent amount back for those 7950s and make buying the 670s pretty bearable.
 
aronesz said:
Heh, okie dokie.

At our company, we use Adobe Creative Cloud subscriptions. It has certainly saved a lot of money, especially considering how often Adobe has major updates/releases for a fee and what it would all cost collectively otherwise for the full blown Creative Suite (every program and their huge retail prices). ;o
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With the subscription, how much cheaper is it to pay monthly? 50 dollars a month over 12 months - 600 dollars a year. I have just upgraded to CS6 from CS4 (Three years maybe? 600 x 3 = 1800, while 1899 is the retail cost of Production Suite Premium) - which may not be adequate for a professional company as opposed to a serious hobbyist/freelancer who doesn't truly need every year of updates. We come out basically even, 100 dollars means nothing in this case - although this micro-transaction model was not available for CS4's release.

All in all it still comes down to preference - I guess a subscription model applicable to many workers in a company is better from a cashflow standpoint, but personally, I prefer to buy my products, in full, up front. Receiving physical media is a peace of mind I find too many people much too willing to relinquish.
 
cp_kirkley said:
With the subscription, how much cheaper is it to pay monthly? 50 dollars a month over 12 months - 600 dollars a year. I have just upgraded to CS6 from CS4 (Three years maybe? 600 x 3 = 1800, while 1899 is the retail cost of Production Suite Premium) - which may not be adequate for a professional company as opposed to a serious hobbyist/freelancer who doesn't truly need every year of updates. We come out basically even, 100 dollars means nothing in this case - although this micro-transaction model was not available for CS4's release.

All in all it still comes down to preference - I guess a subscription model applicable to many workers in a company is better from a cashflow standpoint, but personally, I prefer to buy my products, in full, up front. Receiving physical media is a peace of mind I find too many people much too willing to relinquish.
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Totally understandable ;o
 
fullvietFX said:
Why the hell did I just read this entire thread.
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Why waste the energy to type something so pointless in a thread that is CLEARLY above your 1337ness?

Anyway, I've gone ahead and ordered the 4GB 670 SC, based off this review regarding 2 GB vs 4 GB for triple display setups.

Thanks again all of you for your useful info and thoughts (except for that last guy, who comes of like a bit of a :rolleyes:.)

Will be sure to update with updated pics of the finished system - I also order some braided black power extensions for the GPU - to clean up the look of the case and take some better/cleaner routes.
 
TheReproducer said:
Just ordered one? You'd need two to match your prior/current setup.
Click to expand...

Yes, I gathered that after reading up and firing up some benches when the first card got here. I order the second card 3 days after recieving the first. As far as selling the 7950s, I got 520, which was a 180 dollar loss for a month of ownership. The 670's cost just under 850. Meh...

Over about 30 days, I am VERY Impressed by the heat (or lack thereof) from the 670's. In the exact same case, same internals, my 7950's operated at 58 C for the top, and low to mid 40s on the bottom. During heavy load, the top card was approaching 85 with the stock cooling profiles, and even with the fan at 75-80 percent I was in the high 70's. Furthermore, My framerates are rock steady at 60 FPS in nearly everything I play. When only gaming on one monitor - I am over 100fps in NBA 2k13 (no surprise), Borderlands has zero slowdows over 100, and Battlefield doesnt drop below 80. Nothing that the 7950's couldnt do, but not having to jump through hoops for phsyx and no longer needing the 25 dollar active MiniDP adapters is a pleasant bonus.

The top 670 idles at 34 and ramps up to 64 at full load - with the fan manually set to 45 percent is isnt really audible. Bottom card is idling at 29 degrees.:eek:The decreased case temperature and being able to run ALL my case fans quieter as a result has been worth the extra cost alone.

I will update this post with some pictures of the nonfinished product (I havent ordered the sleeved cables yet).
 
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