New colorimeters from X-Rite.

Discussion in 'Displays' started by sblantipodi, Jul 18, 2011.

  1. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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  2. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Curtpalme.com (high end projector site) really likes the things. They say is best device they've ever seen for the price, bar none.
     
  3. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    is there a complete reviews about this new devices?
     
  4. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well they don't really have what I consider a proper review. That's partially because they are in to projectors, not monitors. However they have some info on it and seem to love the thing.
     
  5. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    Really interesting, I will wait for some other reviews, thanks.
     
  6. NivOn

    NivOn n00b

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  7. Sycraft

    Sycraft [H]ardness Supreme

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    Well one reason to get it, if you've money, is just speed. My i1d2 works fine but is not what I'd call a fast device. The i1d3 is apparently much faster, which is really nice. The other big thing would be for wide gamut or LED displays. The i1d2 is not designed for those. It can work, but not as well as something that is designed for them.
     
  8. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    I hope that Denis from prad will try this colorimeters soon, it would be really interesting to hear is thinking...
    My DTP94b is really new, I bought it recently and it was hard to find, I would like to know if i1d3 will be a good upgrade from my DTP94 or not.
     
  9. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I'm thinking of taking advantage of the 40$ trade in rebate offer they have for the i1 Pro 3, the problem is the feedback their program provides is extremely lacking unlike Lacie Blue Eye Pro. Have to use HCFR and BasICColor to get the real numbers.
     
  10. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    who is making this trade?
     
  11. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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  12. three4seven

    three4seven [H]ard|Gawd

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    You can get up to $40 back ($25 when you buy the colormunki display) when you trade in your old colorimeter AFTER you buy a new one (either the i1 display pro or colormunki display). You don't get the new colorimeter for $40.

    It's basically a mail in rebate - but you're mailing in your old colorimeter as well. Download the PDF form in the link.

    Honestly - it's not that great of a deal. Even old spyder2 pro goes for atleast $40 on ebay. If you have an i1 D2 - you can easily fetch closer to $80-90 for it.
     
  13. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    yes its a crappy trade. :)
    it's convenient for them not for us.
     
  14. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    Here's a test where they used several colorimeters and tested them with a spectroradiometer:

    http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html

    As you can see, the DTP-94 comes on top except with wide gamut, where Spyder 3 is one of the few that has filters for. You use a NEC 2490WUXi, which is sRGB, so unless you plan to upgrade to a wide gamut display or your DTP-94 is failing, there shouldn't be a need for a new colorimeter. :)
     
  15. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    I use an Eizo S2433W, I used a NEC 2490 only for one day.
    We are talking about i1 display 3 not spyder 3 :)
     
  16. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    Sorry. I mixed you with another user. :)

    The S2433W is a wide gamut, so DTP-94B might not be the best choice, since it doesn't have filters for wide gamut. I1 D3 has support for wide gamut, so you will notice difference in calibration, especially in the white according to the results I posted in last post.

    I remember that Andrew Rodney made a test with 2690WUXi and a generic (not the NEC branded) I1 D2, which also doesn't have filters for wide gamut. Color temp was constantly off by 500K when he measured the results with a spectroradiometer.
     
  17. rmp459

    rmp459 [H]Lite

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    Is there any difference between the Pantone & X-Rite versions at this point? or are they now all the same ?
     
  18. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    We workarounded this problem using the iColor Display software from Quato.
     
  19. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    Interesting. :)

    I haven't used that software. How did it work around the problem? Its normally a hardware issue with filters, so the colorimeter cannot detect the white point properly itself. The workaround has been to use a spectroradiometer to obtain the values and then use that as base for calibration. Problem is that this needs to be done for each display type.
     
  20. Sailor_Moon

    Sailor_Moon Gawd

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  21. Sailor_Moon

    Sailor_Moon Gawd

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    By applying appropiate 3x3 correction matrices. Quato implements averaged generic ones for IPS and VA displays with WCG-CCFL and extended WCG-CCFL backlight (92-102% NTSC - the spectra are not so different between these screens) and every supported colorimeter. This approach works fine for the DTP94 which has a quite good inter instrument agreement (the particular matrix is also averaged over a number of probes of one type). So the measured values pass through two correction matrices in this case. One for non WCG-CCFL screens (72% NTSC) on colorimeterside and another for the WCG-CCFL spectra on softwareside.

    The filter solution of Spyder 3 and EOD2 comes a bit closer to the 2 degree CIE standard observer - without achieving it (therefore corrections against a spectral normal are still required). The main problem is the poor inter instrument agreement and bad durability of the organic gelatine filters. But Datacolor has recently changed the filter solution for the Sypder 3 to an anorganic type which leads to noticeable better results now - unfortunately that enhancement is not communicated. X-Rite has replaced the EOD2 with the already mentioned (and very potent) new colorimeter that features an optical system, anorganic interference filters and a more flexible correction matrix handling (the filter solution matches the 2 degree standard observer better but there is still no ideal match which would lead to spectral independency).

    Best regards

    Denis
     
    Last edited: Aug 1, 2011
  22. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    Always a pleasure to read your post denis, it's like beeing at school :)

    Do you think that you will test i1 display 3 soon?
    Will you ever do a comparison between i1d3 and older devices like mine (DTP94)?

    I found DTP94 very precise for my two S2433W (I changed the panel of one of this, the panel was the problem of the reddish grey) but if i1d3 will be as precise as my DTP94 (or more) and it will be faster, I will be glad to upgrde.
     
  23. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Edit.

    Missed the Reply from Denis which better explains it than mine.
     
  24. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    So, its a "best guess" approach based upon generic values based upon averaged spectroradiometer readings of a selection of displays of different panel matrices?
    I can see that this can improve of the readings somewhat, considering that without the proper filters, the WCG-CCFL's are to be considered an unknown light source to some degree. Is the panel type selected by software, or do you select it within the program?

    I was hoping that they did some sort of pairing of the most known models at least, similar to the NEC branded I1D2, but without storing it in the puck.

    Do you know of any reviews or tests where the results have been measured afterwards with a spectroradiometer over a selection of screens, spesifically the white point? :)


    Yes, the Spyder 3 came out well in both consistency and both WG and sRGB test according to this:
    http://www.drycreekphoto.com/Learn/Calibration/MonitorCalibrationHardware.html

    What was suprising, was that the Eyeone pro did so poorly in the wide gamut black tests.

    Did prad.de get any of the I1D3's in yet? :)
     
  25. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Given how stable and how good inter-instrument consistency is for the DTP-94 that almost certainly better than any other colorimeter for the instrument. Obviously more panel backlight types would be beneficial on getting the panel side of the equation matched, but again, I bet it is better than another solution that doesn't do this.

    Note in this test, there was absolutely no correction applied to DTP-94 for wide gamut. If there was the result would be much closer to its exemplary standard gamut result.

    Not really surprised about the i1 Pro. It Spectrophotometers are known to be weak in black and the wide gamut display had a much darker black point. So low that I would not be surprised if it is out of spec for the i1 Pro readings.

    I am more surprised how poorly the colormunki did on white. It is spectrophotometer as well. That is quite a disappointment, but they only had one.

    I am surprised no one builds a spectrophotometer with a build calorimeter for to deal with dark readings.
     
  26. Sailor_Moon

    Sailor_Moon Gawd

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    We are testing this in all reviews with the EyeOne Pro as reference. For example:

    http://www.prad.de/new/monitore/test/2011/test-eizo-sx2762w-teil14.html#Korrektur
    (see table)

    Of course the EyeOne Pro is no ideal reference (i.a. quite coarse sample intervall and the already by Snowdog mentioned problems with dark tonal values), but fairly good nevertheless.

    You are selecting it within the software. Although the matrices are averaged between WCG-CCFL and extended WCG-CCFL screens and multiple probes of one type the results are very usable with the stable DTP94. As I said: The spectra between the mentioned screens are not so different.As long as the probes have a good inter instrument agreement you won't suffer from too strong deviations. In the majority of cases the results are not worse compared to the OEM EOD2 solution of NEC or the similar approach of HP für the LP2480zx.

    [​IMG]
    For their own screens there are specialized matrices.

    I will definitely look at one/ some of the new devices but I can't tell a definite date.

    Best regards

    Denis
     
    Last edited: Aug 2, 2011
  27. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    We will wait, thanks :)
     
  28. tonyptony

    tonyptony [H]Lite

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    This is an interesting read

    http://www.luminous-landscape.com/forum/index.php?topic=53825.0

    One of the takeaways is really how variable even the better devices are. It is true that a spectro like the i1Pro will never be great at very low black levels, or that maybe a cheaper colorimeter will not be quite as good for color accuracy. But if one sample was used for any of these spectros or colorimeters to draw broad conclusions then I think it should be taken with a grain of salt. It's not quite the luck of the draw, but it does leave at least me with a bit less confidence.
     
  29. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    Question wasn't about the performance of the solution, but the implementation itself. BasICColor Discus was interesting though and can be proven to be the best solution on the marked now if its consistent. :)

    Thanks. From your tests, the corrections seems to work surprisingly well. I know about EyeOne Pro being bad in measuring black, though it suprised me how much when I saw the results, but in white point as you show in the tests, the Eyeone does its job.

    I look forward to see your i1D3 tests. The BasICColor Discus seems even more interesting when I reread the review I linked. :)
     
  30. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    At $1200 for the device alone without software, Discus better be consistent and I am sure it will be as they are individually calibrated.
     
  31. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    $1200 ($1299 with software) isn't much for those that need that kind of accuracy. Screens are pretty expensive in Norway compared to US, but I paid $2,667 USD (about 14 500NOK by using todays rate at xe.com) for my NEC 2690WUXi a few years ago. The Spectraview edition (SV 2690, not Multisync) was about 21 000 NOK if I remember correctly then.

    I've tried out the Spectraview profiler software from Basiccolor (same as their usual software, but it can LUT calibrate NEC screens) and its pretty solid. Here's one review I dug up where they use Discus with that software:

    http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/reviews/profiling/discus.html
     
  32. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Sure that accuracy is worth it to some, not many here I imagine. That is is about what I paid for my complete NEC2490UXiSV package. I will get similar accuracy (my probe is calibrated for my monitor) and I got a monitor too. :)

    I cringe at the thought of $500 spectrophotometer, but it does occasionally cross my mind. $1200, not unless I had so much money that I never needed to think about it again.

    I am more interested in how the new i1d3 stacks up in terms of getting good enough results on a variety of screens. Though it does sound like the device may be locked an not work with third party SW.

    I will probably just try to make do on next monitor (perhaps a Dell U2412) and see how bad the results look from my NEC branded iD2 on a W-LED display.
     
  33. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    Are you downgrading from a Nec LCD2490 to a Dell U2412 for some specific reason or you simply add another monitor to your collection?
     
  34. Tamlin_WSGF

    Tamlin_WSGF 2[H]4U

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    The NEC SV 2 package with the paired I1D2 probe as you got was a good solution. :) A shame that NEC US blocked EU credit cards to get that package.

    Is the i1D3 going to be locked to its software?
     
    Last edited: Aug 15, 2011
  35. Drags

    Drags Gawd

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    I believe the OEM version of i1 D3 is not compatible with X-rites i1 Profiler software but can be used with third party packages, only where they have added support. the Retail version CAN be used with i1 Profiler but not with other packages!
     
  36. Snowdog

    Snowdog [H]ardForum Junkie

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    Yes, it appears the retail D3 is locked. This does seem to be one of the dumbest moves I have seen. This insures I will NOT buy a retail Display 3 as it is useless in third party software. Exactly what is supposed to be gained by this brain dead policy? It would seem anyone who does any research would want to avoid buying the actual Retail product as it won't work with anything else.

    I see this as a big opportunity for Datacolor. They could bring out a slightly improved Spyder 4 with the killer feature: It doesn't lock you out of your own HW and will work with third party SW.


    http://www.curtpalme.com/ChromaPure_EyeOneDisplay3.shtm

     
  37. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    at the moment display3 will not work with third party software, when the driver will be released, third party will be able to use it.
     
  38. NCX

    NCX [H]ardness Supreme

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    I was about to order one of these, probably still best for me to wait for new drivers rather than paying ridiculous shipping+duties coming to Canada.
     
  39. sblantipodi

    sblantipodi 2[H]4U

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    If you buy it, please don't forget to share your toughts.
    What calibration device have you got now?