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new block... look any good?

Performance CPU Block uses a solid copper base with an insane amount of pins to actively dissipate heat.
Click to expand...

Well it does have a INSANE amount of pins....
 
Surface area doesn't mean as much in waterblocks as it does with air heatsinks. The dynamics between them are totally different.

The best waterblock design to date focuses on having an impingement system (like a shower head) that squirts the water into holes/dents situated dead above where the cpu sits. The Cascade waterblock by Cathar was the first to do this.

AFAIK all waterblocks are inferior to direct die watercooling and so can only attempt to equal it for sake of an easier setup.

Large waterblocks with huge amounts of surface area tend to only perform averagely.
 
spine said:
The best water block design to date focuses on having an impingement system (like a shower head) that squirts the water into holes/dents situated dead above where the cpu sits.
Click to expand...
Bingo. The efficiency of jet impingement is simply higher than the efficiency of "pin grids". With pin grids, you have a large amount of surface area, and a healthy degree of turbulent flow, but you also have stagnant flow regions as a result of crossflow. These stagnant regions increase the resistance of flow throughout the pin grid. Jet impingement, however, as it's observed in the Cascade and Storm, does not create stagnant flow regions that inhibit the dissipative performance of the block (the only significant area where stagnant flow can happen in the Storm occurs in the area outside of the cups, and not much heat has the opportunity to flow into that region). The Storm creates turbulence by focusing and increasing the velocity of water flow (jets), then maximizes the capabilities of that turbulent flow (cups and turbulators), without requiring excessive pumping power.

Now, it's very possible to surpass jet impingement performance with a pin grid block, but it requires a much higher degree of pumping power to achieve that result. Or, on the other side of the coin, with extremely low pumping power, but not in the midrange in which the grand majority of setups fall.

You could spin the fact that this block might surpass a Storm G4, and in rare circumstances, a Storm G5, but only within an extremely narrow flow rate range atypical of a typical cooling system. Not D5 or DDC range, nor 2xD5 or 2xDDC range (probably), but something along the lines in the RD30 range.

The best block money can buy is still the Storm G5.
 
Hi all,

We have designed our block to give the best performance to price ratio coming in at only £25 its great value for money.

We have started to ship the blocks out for independent reviews to review sites and mags alike with he first review due in PC format issue.
 
thanks, im looking to spend around £200 on a new WC system and illl probs get the flow cpu block and res.
 
phide said:
Bingo. The efficiency of jet impingement is simply higher than the efficiency of "pin grids". With pin grids, you have a large amount of surface area, and a healthy degree of turbulent flow, but you also have stagnant flow regions as a result of crossflow. These stagnant regions increase the resistance of flow throughout the pin grid. Jet impingement, however, as it's observed in the Cascade and Storm, does not create stagnant flow regions that inhibit the dissipative performance of the block (the only significant area where stagnant flow can happen in the Storm occurs in the area outside of the cups, and not much heat has the opportunity to flow into that region). The Storm creates turbulence by focusing and increasing the velocity of water flow (jets), then maximizes the capabilities of that turbulent flow (cups and turbulators), without requiring excessive pumping power.

Now, it's very possible to surpass jet impingement performance with a pin grid block, but it requires a much higher degree of pumping power to achieve that result. Or, on the other side of the coin, with extremely low pumping power, but not in the midrange in which the grand majority of setups fall.

You could spin the fact that this block might surpass a Storm G4, and in rare circumstances, a Storm G5, but only within an extremely narrow flow rate range atypical of a typical cooling system. Not D5 or DDC range, nor 2xD5 or 2xDDC range (probably), but something along the lines in the RD30 range.

The best block money can buy is still the Storm G5.
Click to expand...

So how come Fuzion beats Storm in most reviews/comparisons? I mean, most reviewers don't have RD30, they use D5 or DDCs..
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131297
 
TehQuick said:
So how come Fuzion beats Storm in most reviews/comparisons? I mean, most reviewers don't have RD30, they use D5 or DDCs..
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131297
Click to expand...

First off, the FuZion does employ impingement (granted, it's with a single nozzle... but it's still impingement). Second of all, phide was referring to Stew's Storm G5 as being the best performing (which, aside from the G7 prototype, it likely is). Just because the FuZion can outperform the G4 doesn't mean that there's something fundamentally wrong with the concepts on which it was based. All it shows is that the implementation of said concepts needs to be updated to better match with changes that have occurred in CPUs since its design (e.g. the change from small, bare dies to larger dies, multiple dies, and integrated heatspreaders).
 
That block is average, and pretty much mimics a number of other products which have been out on the market for quite some time now. Off the top of my head similar blocks are : AquaComputer Cuplex Pro/XT, AquaXtreme MP-05 and all its derivatives, Nexxxos XP (and derivatives), you could also perhaps throw in the Dtek Fuzion and Swiftech Apogee into the mix because they are similar concepts but slightly different designs.

However the first three listed, and that Flow block, are all virtually the same exact design. A very compact grid of rectangular pins. It is a decent design, nothing groundbreaking by any means.
 
Erasmus354 said:
That block is average, and pretty much mimics a number of other products which have been out on the market for quite some time now. Off the top of my head similar blocks are : AquaComputer Cuplex Pro/XT, AquaXtreme MP-05 and all its derivatives, Nexxxos XP (and derivatives), you could also perhaps throw in the Dtek Fuzion and Swiftech Apogee into the mix because they are similar concepts but slightly different designs.

However the first three listed, and that Flow block, are all virtually the same exact design. A very compact grid of rectangular pins. It is a decent design, nothing groundbreaking by any means.
Click to expand...

You can compare this block to the Apogee, perhaps, and to that new Zalman block... but not to the others listed. The NexXxos, the MP-05, etc. all utilize accelerator nozzles to create additional coolant turbulence over the cooling area, this Flow block does not.
 
Petra said:
First off, the FuZion does employ impingement (granted, it's with a single nozzle... but it's still impingement). Second of all, phide was referring to Stew's Storm G5 as being the best performing (which, aside from the G7 prototype, it likely is). Just because the FuZion can outperform the G4 doesn't mean that there's something fundamentally wrong with the concepts on which it was based. All it shows is that the implementation of said concepts needs to be updated to better match with changes that have occurred in CPUs since its design (e.g. the change from small, bare dies to larger dies, multiple dies, and integrated heatspreaders).
Click to expand...

Right, but G5 is silver-only, yes? How can you compare silver-made block with superior heat-transfer properties thanks to the material used to a copper one? I think it's a little unfair. Of course, you g5 is better, and part of the reason is due to the material used. If someone could make fuzion out of silver, it'd be interesting to pit it against G5. As for Fuzion being impingement - well, it depends on how you define what's impingement and what's not. Single nozzle is not impingement IMHO, even calling it a crossover would be a stretch...
 
Petra said:
You can compare this block to the Apogee, perhaps, and to that new Zalman block... but not to the others listed. The NexXxos, the MP-05, etc. all utilize accelerator nozzles to create additional coolant turbulence over the cooling area, this Flow block does not.
Click to expand...

They do use accelerator nozzles, however the base design is still the same; a very compact rectangular pin grid. Also, not all MP-05 use accelerator nozzles. Cuplex Pro has no accelerators, Nexxxos XP (or HP?) Lite has no accelerators either.

The point was the base plate design, which is the most important thing anyways.
 
TehQuick said:
Right, but G5 is silver-only, yes? How can you compare silver-made block with superior heat-transfer properties thanks to the material used to a copper one? I think it's a little unfair. Of course, you g5 is better, and part of the reason is due to the material used. If someone could make fuzion out of silver, it'd be interesting to pit it against G5. As for Fuzion being impingement - well, it depends on how you define what's impingement and what's not. Single nozzle is not impingement IMHO, even calling it a crossover would be a stretch...
Click to expand...

Silver isn't that much better than copper. The only reason why the G5 is silver only is because the machining costs are so high it didn't make much sense to make it in anything but silver. Because the cost of the materials was no longer the main concern, but the cost of cutting out all the mini jets and cups was.
 
TehQuick said:
Right, but G5 is silver-only, yes? How can you compare silver-made block with superior heat-transfer properties thanks to the material used to a copper one?
Click to expand...
Simple, it's the reworked nozzle and cup array that gives it the performance edge, not really the silver. The thermal conductivity of silver isn't better than copper by a large margin (unlike the difference between copper and aluminum) and merely making a waterblock base from silver isn't going to do much (case in point: the silver TDX).
Al (at about 80F): 237 W/m-K
Cu (at about 80F): 401 W/m-K
Ag (at about 80F): 429 W/m-K

As for Fuzion being impingement - well, it depends on how you define what's impingement and what's not. Single nozzle is not impingement IMHO, even calling it a crossover would be a stretch...
Click to expand...
The number of nozzles has nothing to do with whether impingement is being used or not... one jet or 150 jets, it's still water jet impingement.
 
Erasmus354 said:
Also, not all MP-05 use accelerator nozzles.
Click to expand...
They all use an accelerator nozzle of some sort.

Cuplex Pro has no accelerators
Click to expand...
You may have me on that one, but the XT version does.

Nexxxos XP (or HP?) Lite has no accelerators either.
Click to expand...
Both the XP and HP Lite use accelerator nozzles (just look at the photos without barbs for the HP Lite).

The point was the base plate design, which is the most important thing anyways.
Click to expand...
Base and midplate act as a matched pair--take accelerator nozzles away from the Storm and you don't have much of a waterblock left... :rolleyes:

*edit* sorry for the double post...
 
For the price range our block is a winner, but there is better technology out there and that of course commands a higher price.

We will be publishing independent reviews over the next few weeks and im sure you will be pleasantly surprised.
 
Sorry, they call the MP-05 without the nozzles the MP-1, and I never saw those nozzles on the HP Lite...they hide them inside the barb hole.....tricksy little hobbitses. I'd be willing to wager however that the nozzles make no more than around a 5-10% difference in performance. Accelerator plates are not an intricate piece to the design...the TDX uses accelerators. It is just something added to the waterblock design to try to speed up the velocity of the water hitting the grid. Taking the accelerators out of a storm is a much different proposition than taking them out of any of the pin-grid blocks. They are integral to the design and effectiveness of the storm, but merely an added bonus for the others.


ON TOPIC :

I am not sold on the proposed "best block for the money" here. I mean, it is 21.7 pounds excluding VAT. A Nexxxos XP is 18 pounds INCLUDING VAT. Considering they are similar designs...with Nexxxos having accelerators where the Flow does not, I don't see a best bang for the buck here. Its hard to tell without more detailed shots of the base, and no testing yet. It could be that the larger grid, and possibly wider spacing allows for performance similar to Fuzion...I doubt it though.

....I say wait for some testing before you get this block.
 
LOL,

Difference is we are driven by customers, our reservoir was actually designed by forum members we just make it reality ;)
 
Petra said:
Simple, it's the reworked nozzle and cup array that gives it the performance edge, not really the silver. The thermal conductivity of silver isn't better than copper by a large margin (unlike the difference between copper and aluminum) and merely making a waterblock base from silver isn't going to do much (case in point: the silver TDX).
Al (at about 80F): 237 W/m-K
Cu (at about 80F): 401 W/m-K
Ag (at about 80F): 429 W/m-K


The number of nozzles has nothing to do with whether impingement is being used or not... one jet or 150 jets, it's still water jet impingement.
Click to expand...

ALright, alright, you win :D G5 is the king of waterblocks. Only problem is - G5s are pretty rare beast, and it's impossible to buy one new, only used... At some point I wanted to get one, almost made a downpayment to Cathar but real life took over, and I forgot all about it :)
 
TehQuick said:
So how come Fuzion beats Storm in most reviews/comparisons? I mean, most reviewers don't have RD30, they use D5 or DDCs..
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=131297
Click to expand...
The G4 is probably "inadequate" for current quad core procs, which many of the folk at XtremeSystems have paired with the Fuzion. The G5 expands the area of the primary cooling patch, which yields better results for these large-die procs. The G7 was intended to further expand upon the primary cooling area. Taking into account the die sizes of Intel's current quads, the G5 can handle them. The G4 probably does an inadequate job of cooling the area in which the temperature diode resides, leading to excessively high core readings despite the fact that the core is otherwise well cooled.

As others have said, silver yields a very minor improvement in the Storm design, and pin grids may not benefit from silver by the same degree. Primarily, I think Stew chose silver to add to the allure of the block (and for its natural antimicrobial properties), rather than for the slight performance edge. The G5 was a no-expense-spared block at the time (though quite basic when compared to the G7), so using anything but silver wouldn't have made much sense.

The true measure of cooling performance is in the overclock, not what temperature is being reported by diodes that are placed near the coolest portions of the CPU. A higher overclock is indicative of a CPU's ability to perform at higher performance plateau. The best block right now is the G5, except in certain scenarios with very procs with very large die sizes (AMD quads?) and with pumping power not within the ideal range.

If you think of jet impingement as a means for water to forcibly strike a surface, then the jet-accelerated pin grid blocks utilize something akin to jet impingement (for the most part, the nozzles are just there to accelerate water flow). The height of the pins is the main inhibitor in achieving real impingement. The Storm utilizes "true" jet impingement, and there is a narrow operating range of velocity vs. jet length vs. jet-to-cup distance vs. cup size that it attempts to maximize upon.
 
ok, so im gonna hold out til i get the block for some reviews, but ill defo get the res, looks great :)
 
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