Networking Question

[cismajor97]

A friend of mine contacted me today and asked me if I wanted to make some money on the side. Of course what he said interested me and I asked him to go into more detail about the opportunity. He then told me about a friend of his who has a small business and wants to network 5 computers and 1 server to their new office. Now the tricky part for me is that she needs to the cables to run through the walls of the office as this is something I’ve never done before. In addition I don’t have much information on what kind of networking supplies she would need (I.E. a router/switch) that sort of thing. My question is this, is it hard to run network cables through walls? In addition would setting up a router for a small business be the same as setting up a network for your home? I’m trying to decide if I’m the right person to do this project.

cismajor97

 

[ktwebb]

This may sound harsh and that is not it's intent but, if your asking these questions then you are not the right person for the job.

 

[genesis[OFT]]

Oh, I wouldn't go as far as to say that. However, running cables through walls is fairly full on stuff. Through walls is easy....just drill a hole and put the face plate on both sides. You'll probably, for going THROUGH the LENGTH of the wall need some string and a lot of patience. Otherwise, it's time to rip open the wall and do it that way.

In regard to cabling, I'd go for CAT 6 UTP to go in the walls. Cat 6 is good because it fully supports Gigabit ethernet and the Cat 6 that I've used seems to maintain a quality connection all the times that I've used it.

Have you considered wireless alternatives? The new NETGEAR 240Mbps range looks promising. Has anyone used it before?

 

[cyr0n_k0r]

You'll probably, for going THROUGH the LENGTH of the wall need some string and a lot of patience.

this is not really an option if the office is a business suite. Most building codes require cross studs that make it impossiable to fish wire through them if holes are not already cut.

another option is to use the ceiling. Most offices have those white particle ceiling tiles that you can lift up and run cable through. That is what I do most times. Then just try and do the best job you can at hiding the cable coming out of the ceiling. Either with some kind of plastic covering or another means. Most of those items can be purchased at places like Home Depot.

 

[u2slow]

It is my experience with smaller customers that many do not see the cost benefit of proper installed cable drops with jacks & wallplates. Their office may be makeshift, exposed/semi-industrial or open-plan where everything could get rearranged on a moment's notice.

I accomodate these clients with long patch cords. You can punch straight through walls if you stay a couple inches above the floor. I use dropped ceiling space wherever possible.

 

[mikeblas]

This may sound harsh and that is not it's intent but, if your asking these questions then you are not the right person for the job.

Seconded. In-wall wiring means you have to pay attention to local codes and the NEC, too. If you don't even know how to do that, you're the wrong guy for the job and are probably going to cause more harm than good.

 

[Orinthical]

This may sound harsh and that is not it's intent but, if your asking these questions then you are not the right person for the job.

No offense intended, OP, but I have to third this statement. Running wires through a wall is relatively easy. The problem is that if you're going to do it in or as a business you will have to comply with local code, which can be a huge undertaking.

Doing this kind of thing for a business makes you liable. If you are not prepared to accept that or don't fully understand what you are doing, pass on this job and start studying. Once you have run wires for yourself, your family and friends, know your local code and it's requirements AND feel confident in your work... go out and look for it, you'll find it.

 

[cismajor97]

I wanted to make sure that I understood exactly what I may be getting myself into and what I would be liable for in addition. I think the wireless option sounds doable since I won't have to worry about building codes, etc. Is wireless secure enough to run your small business with? The client runs a mortgage company and I'm sure she would want all that information passing through the air to be secure. If I were awarded this project would wireless suffice?

 

[mikeblas]

Wireless doesn't make anything simpler, really. Getting a wireless network fast, reliable, and secure takes some effort.

The bandwidth is shared among all machines instead of being shared by the machines on each network leg. So you'll want to spend some time figuring out what kind of bandwidth each client needs for the applications it is running and the usage it sees.

Making sure you have connectivity over the whole office isn't always trivial. All you need is an air duct or some plumbing in the wrong place and you've got a dead spot.

You'll need to lock the network down very carefully, and make sure the owner understands how to maintan it, change passwords, and add new nodes.

The questions you're asking are very basic. If you're telling your customer this is your first job and that you'll be learning as you go, I suppose that's fair. But if you're going in and they're expecting an expert, you're going to make a mess for yourself.

 

[Sparkyy]

Also not to mention that that if this is a mortgage business, I highly doubt they want client information flying through the air so that anyone can capture it. Yes wireless can be setup secure but it takes a lot of time and effort to keep it that way. Also wireless routers don't know when to stop, they won't see an external wall and figure to stop, they broadcast as far as possible.

Maybe be an assistant to the person who is going to setup their office and see what it takes to configure a business network would be a better start then trying to jump in and bring up a whole network by yourself.

 

[kumquat]

If you don't know what basic networking hardware you need, you're absolutely not the right person for the job.

If you don't know how to install network cable, you're absolutely not the right person for the job.

If you don't know how to run wires through walls, or that ceiling cable needs to be suspended off the ceiling, you're not the right person for the job.

Please do this business a favor and don't screw them over by trying to do a job you know nothing about.

 

[MrGuvernment]

^^ you can tell the router not to broadcast it's self, since this is an office with fixed units then you dont need to broadcast the SID thingy.

 

[mikeblas]

Broadcasting the SID is the least of your worries when securing a network. In fact, if a network is properly secured, you should feel free to broadcast the SID.

 

[cismajor97]

If you don't know what basic networking hardware you need, you're absolutely not the right person for the job.

If you don't know how to install network cable, you're absolutely not the right person for the job.

If you don't know how to run wires through walls, or that ceiling cable needs to be suspended off the ceiling, you're not the right person for the job.

Please do this business a favor and don't screw them over by trying to do a job you know nothing about.

Thanks for being clear

I'll just stay out of the networking arena and stick to software design.

 

[u2slow]

If you're telling your customer this is your first job and that you'll be learning as you go, I suppose that's fair.

This is very fair.

As for some of the other [H]ardnosed comments.... I've learned a great deal doing work that pushed and exceeded the limits of my formal education and experience. So long as you're up front on that detail, your client has the choice.

 

[tdg]

I'd contact them and ask if you can come out to the site and investigate their situation to see if you can complete this task. Emphasize you were referred from your friend, have a strong fundamental knowledge of networking but want to see if you can provide them with a solution to their needs. If they are willing, go out to the site, make yourself a diagram of the offices and the locations of equipment, and figure out how to get the wire through the wall.

Then come back and give us the info and we can try to guide you. Nobody is born with this knowledge, you have to start somewhere The second day of my very first IT job, I was stringing wire through concrete dorms, with nothing more than the guidance of others.

 

[mikeblas]

I'd contact them and ask if you can come out to the site and investigate their situation to see if you can complete this task. Emphasize you were referred from your friend, have a strong fundamental knowledge of networking

I don't think it's moral to lie to customers.

 

[kumquat]

I'd contact them and ask if you can come out to the site and investigate their situation to see if you can complete this task. Emphasize you were referred from your friend, have a strong fundamental knowledge of networking but want to see if you can provide them with a solution to their needs. If they are willing, go out to the site, make yourself a diagram of the offices and the locations of equipment, and figure out how to get the wire through the wall.

Then come back and give us the info and we can try to guide you. Nobody is born with this knowledge, you have to start somewhere The second day of my very first IT job, I was stringing wire through concrete dorms, with nothing more than the guidance of others.

This is extremely dishonest.

The poster knows virtually nothing about networking. Pretending that he does and getting advice from an internet forum in order to have some hope of actually accomplishing what the client wants is wrong and is a recipe for disaster.

Please do not do this.

 

[Orinthical]

I'd contact them and ask if you can come out to the site and investigate their situation to see if you can complete this task. Emphasize you were referred from your friend, have a strong fundamental knowledge of networking but want to see if you can provide them with a solution to their needs.

OP, you'd be well not listen to this advice. Lying to your customers is NEVER a good idea and not only WILL you be caught in the end, you will be hurting our entire market segment.

Nobody is born with this knowledge, you have to start somewhere The second day of my very first IT job, I was stringing wire through concrete dorms, with nothing more than the guidance of others.

No offense but being hired by a company who is willing to let you learn is a completely different thing to what the OP asked about. No one is born with this knowledge but a business NOT the place to start and misrepresenting yourself is a horrible introduction to the business.

IF the OP wants to have an honest start in the networking/wiring world, he/she should start by running wire through his/her own house and then possibly a friend's home. That's a good start with people who are likely to be more forgiving.

 

[tdg]

The OP never said what his networking abilities were, he appears to have a network at home so he has a fundamental background. His question was how to get it through the wall and what equipment might be necessary as he does not know what she currently has. Most of this equation is easily solved by visiting the site and taking inventory and investigating the layout and needs.

If nobody bothered to expand their knowledge without the help of others we'd all still be cavemen.

 

[u2slow]

I question people's motives when they describe their industry to be so fragile to the point where complete novices operating independently will damage it to some/any degree.

Relax, this stuff comes out in the wash. I cover a range of market segments myself. This scenario crops up all over the place. In the end, its an educational experience for both parties. (For better or for worse) It reinforces value for dollar, and to do your homework before you hire somebody, or take on a job.

 

[Orinthical]

The OP never said what his networking abilities were...

Actually, he stated quite clearly that he doesn't know how to run cables.

Now the tricky part for me is that she needs to the cables to run through the walls of the office as this is something I’ve never done before. In addition I don’t have much information on what kind of networking supplies she would need (I.E. a router/switch) that sort of thing.

...

His question was how to get it through the wall and what equipment might be necessary as he does not know what she currently has. Most of this equation is easily solved by visiting the site and taking inventory and investigating the layout and needs.

If nobody bothered to expand their knowledge without the help of others we'd all still be cavemen.

Expanding his knowledge through the help of others is one thing. I dare say HardForum would not exist if this was not an accepted practice.

Expanding his knowledge by misrepresenting himself, lying and using a BUSINESS as his personal playground as you seem to suggest is, on the other hand, not acceptable.

I am simply stating that IF he does NOT know how to do something, someone who is less prone to SUE him (friends/family) may be a better target to experiment on. That is all.

And it's not about being worried that one screw up will damage the industry - it's about how the continued unethical behavior of some can affect us all.

 

[kumquat]

I question people's motives when they describe their industry to be so fragile to the point where complete novices operating independently will damage it to some/any degree.

I'm all for new kids providing small business support... but, if you plan on putting together a server and network for a small office, at least have a shot at being able to pass a Network+ at the very least. Maybe even know how to terminate some ethernet cable. This kid is a programmer and doesn't even know whether he needs a switch or a router.

 

[cismajor97]

Once again thanks for all the advice. My purpose of posting was to see if I was getting in over my head. I understand how network components work but not to the degree of the various posters in this Network forum. I realize that I am out of my element and perhaps need some sort of training if I attempt to do this kind of work.

Like I mentioned before this was just an inquiry from a friend who thought it would be good to pass along an opportunity he thought I was capable of doing. Obviously setting up a home network is very much different than setting up a network for a small business. I will definately pass on this opportunity, allowing it to be a win/win for all parties.

In the future I would like to know more about networking in general, perhaps it can aid in my software development one day.

cismajor97

 

[mikeblas]

the future I would like to know more about networking in general, perhaps it can aid in my software development one day.

As a developer, you're probably most comfortable learning from the software side out.

The Stevens TCP/IP books are probably the best way to start. (ISBN numbers 0201633469, 020163354X, and 0201634953.) You can also get somewhere by reading RFCs for things that interest you.

You should pick up a software sniffer, like Ethereal; it's good enough as a toy and for learning, though not good enough for heavy lifting. That'll let you see what's on the wire.

A book on sockets would be good, too.

Armed with these things, pursuing a simple project (like writing an FTP client or a program that downloads web content; or a client/server chat program, or ...) will get you pretty far towards understanding what's really going on.

 

[mikeblas]

Another good reference is TCP/IP Tutorial & Technical Overview , from IBM. The ISBN is 0130201308 and the book is currently less than $1 at the Amazon used bins.

 

[cismajor97]

As a developer, you're probably most comfortable learning from the software side out.

The Stevens TCP/IP books are probably the best way to start. (ISBN numbers 0201633469, 020163354X, and 0201634953.) You can also get somewhere by reading RFCs for things that interest you.

You should pick up a software sniffer, like Ethereal; it's good enough as a toy and for learning, though not good enough for heavy lifting. That'll let you see what's on the wire.

A book on sockets would be good, too.

Armed with these things, pursuing a simple project (like writing an FTP client or a program that downloads web content; or a client/server chat program, or ...) will get you pretty far towards understanding what's really going on.

Thanks for your advice. I did download Ethereal but have no idea what the purpose of this program is. If someone could give me a quick rundown on how/why you would use this program that would help me a bit.

 

[kumquat]

Thanks for your advice. I did download Ethereal but have no idea what the purpose of this program is. If someone could give me a quick rundown on how/why you would use this program that would help me a bit.

It's used for collecting and viewing packets from an ethernet (or wireless) line. You won't get much use out of it without having some of the basics of networking down.

 

[mikeblas]

Thanks for your advice. I did download Ethereal but have no idea what the purpose of this program is. If someone could give me a quick rundown on how/why you would use this program that would help me a bit.

It captures network activity and shows it to you in a reasonable manner. It lets you know what's happening over the network wire. Once you know what you're doing, you can use it to troubleshoot problems. When you don't know what you're doing, it's great for observing network traffic and relating it back to software. This is a useful starting point for learning: observe something that works and "take it apart" to understand it.

For example, try this:

1) Start your browser
2) Start Ethereal
3) Make Ethereal start capturing
4) Click a link to another page on whatever page you were lookin' at in your browser
5) Once it is done loading, have Ethereal stop capturing
6) Paw through the Ethereal interface to see what traffic happened.

You'll see the HTTP request from the browser to the server. What's special about it? Waht does it contain? What do you notice about the responses? The source and destination addresses? How many requests were made? What did they include?

What you're observing is a very simple network action: a browser getting a page from a server. You can see everyhting that was involved, and start asking questions. What do the port numbers mean? How are addresses resolved? What does the content on the wrie actually look like?

Now you have something very tangible to study, and it should only require a little imagination to see how this is a useful way to start learning how networks function, particularly from your point of view as a software developer.