networking certs?

[omega-x]

planning on going the CCNA route, wondering how wise this is (im pretty good with networking hardware)
vs like.. MSCE and admining windows shit.
or a basic linux server admin certification.
how hard is CCNA too?

 

[BobSutan]

planning on going the CCNA route, wondering how wise this is (im pretty good with networking hardware)

I'd say getting into IT in general is not a wise thing to do. With how flooded the market is with already certified and experienced people out of work, getting a decent job is going to be extremely tough. Add to the outsourcing and you get the picture.

vs like.. MSCE and admining windows shit.
or a basic linux server admin certification.
how hard is CCNA too?

All are quite easy if you study and can do labs on your own. Then again, this is assuming you have the aptitude for IT. The truth is some people are just not cut out for certain types of work. If you're a through and through techie then neither Sys Admining nor Net Admining should pose more than a mild difficulty for entry level certification.

 

[TrueBuckeye]

I'm not going to tell you to stay out of the industry, if it is what you love then go for it. But do NOT expect to have the salaries you hear on the certification advertisements.

During the dot com boom, a paper mcse would get twice what a real mcse gets today. Expect to have to start on a help desk making $25,000 per year and slowly work your way up from there.

Keep in mind, mcsa/mcse/ccna's are a dime a dozen right now. If you find that your interests lie somewhere else like database administration, you may want to look into that area rather than networking.

All of that being said, with either MCSE or CCNA, you are very vender specific. You can only work for shops which use those applications. Thankfully, those shops are far from rare, but that may change. I've been telling people to look into some vender-neutral certs to start, like A+, Network+, and Server+ as a base and then work from there. The exception to this is if you get a job and they are going to help you get certs. Then you take any damn test they want. That's the situation I'm in...they want me to get my mcse, so I am. They pay for all expenses, I get to add a few more initials to my resume.

I've probably already gone on far too long, but let me say one more thing. Do not become a papercert whore. Know the stuff. Understand it. Don't just pull down some braindumps, read through the questions 8 times and take the tests. You will only be hurting yourself. I've seen guys with paper certs who strut around like kings, but then wilt when they are actually confronted with an issue that they should be able to fix. Set up a network at home, get an intern job at a company for very little pay, do whatever it takes to get experience. That's what is going to set you apart.

Oh, and about which one you should do first...have you ever used a cisco router? If not, then according to the above paragraph you shouldn't go for that cert. Get the MS first, get a job, get your hands on a router, then start working on the cert.

 

[BobSutan]

Originally posted by TrueBuckeye
Oh, and about which one you should do first...have you ever used a cisco router? If not, then according to the above paragraph you shouldn't go for that cert. Get the MS first, get a job, get your hands on a router, then start working on the cert.

To add to this thought, once upon a time Cisco recommended a CCNA candidate should already have 12-18 months real world experience with access level products AND a sound foundation in networking before persuing certification. Unfortunately you won't find this on their site today. My guess is they felt it would discourage people from spending money on their certification program (even though IMHO it would actually bolster the quality and prestige of the CCNA itself).

 

[shade91]

Originally posted by TrueBuckeye
I'm not going to tell you to stay out of the industry, if it is what you love then go for it. But do NOT expect to have the salaries you hear on the certification advertisements.

During the dot com boom, a paper mcse would get twice what a real mcse gets today. Expect to have to start on a help desk making $25,000 per year and slowly work your way up from there.

Keep in mind, mcsa/mcse/ccna's are a dime a dozen right now. If you find that your interests lie somewhere else like database administration, you may want to look into that area rather than networking.

Definitely dime a dozen with about 11 out of those dozen not knowing what the heck they're doing. I've still seen total chumps take up $90k+ jobs though. Keep in mind those jobs usually entail networking + a whole lot else.

All of that being said, with either MCSE or CCNA, you are very vender specific. You can only work for shops which use those applications. Thankfully, those shops are far from rare, but that may change. I've been telling people to look into some vender-neutral certs to start, like A+, Network+, and Server+ as a base and then work from there. The exception to this is if you get a job and they are going to help you get certs. Then you take any damn test they want. That's the situation I'm in...they want me to get my mcse, so I am. They pay for all expenses, I get to add a few more initials to my resume.

CCNA isn't vendor specific. The certification is presented by Cisco but the majority (95%) of the actual test is not vendor specific. If the entire test was summarizing the Cisco IOS then I'd say it is vendor specific. You're better off taking the CCNA if you want to get into networking anyway. I wonder if anyone has taken the 640-801 test yet. You'll understand what I mean when you take it. Completely different than past tests. Network+ is basically CCNA minus the Cisco material. I would think you'd want a taste of Cisco considering it's the defacto standard in networking unless of course you're one of those "eye yam so uber leet" networking people here that can't stand to see the sight of that famous 5 lettered name.

I've probably already gone on far too long, but let me say one more thing. Do not become a papercert whore. Know the stuff. Understand it. Don't just pull down some braindumps, read through the questions 8 times and take the tests. You will only be hurting yourself. I've seen guys with paper certs who strut around like kings, but then wilt when they are actually confronted with an issue that they should be able to fix. Set up a network at home, get an intern job at a company for very little pay, do whatever it takes to get experience. That's what is going to set you apart.

Seen it too. Most are no longer in the industry. If you set up a network at home you better make it 5-6 routers, throw in some switches with VLANs going, set up a house-wide WLAN, all the while switching between routing protocols, and breaking your switches to see how things work when things go bad. That'll give you a feel for the CCNA.

Oh, and about which one you should do first...have you ever used a cisco router? If not, then according to the above paragraph you shouldn't go for that cert. Get the MS first, get a job, get your hands on a router, then start working on the cert.

I sooooooooo agree with you. Do NOT touch the CCNA if you have never touched a Cisco router. This is the prime definition of a paper cert. MCSE is the king of papercerts. I haven't met a talented MCSE yet. I've gone through so many exam cram books while sitting at a local book store and couldn't stop laughing at how easy the tests are.




Sorry for breaking down your entire post. Just that.. a lot of people give bad information in threads like this (not saying yours has bad info, it has a ton of great info). Basically spouting how the industry is dying and not many jobs are available. I have a hard time containing myself knowing how wrong they are.

 

[TrechMaggotface]

Although the certifications have definately become less valuable the dime a dozen comments are just not true. There are currently less than 5000 MCSEs on windows 2k3 worldwide. The same misconception exists about the ease of the exams. The legend began with the MCSE NT4.0. These exams were ridiculously easy. An MCSE on win2k3 will definately need to know more than a brick to pass the exam, especially if he/she chooses the design electives. Those scenarios are killers. Still, stay away from the cert unless you want to specialize in windows administration.

 

[TrueBuckeye]

Originally posted by shade91
Sorry for breaking down your entire post. Just that.. a lot of people give bad information in threads like this (not saying yours has bad info, it has a ton of great info). Basically spouting how the industry is dying and not many jobs are available. I have a hard time containing myself knowing how wrong they are.

Don't worry about it. It is nice to know that someone actually read it.

There ARE jobs out there, but you have to have the right skills or be in the right place in life to take them. I get so pissed at those certification commercials on radio and tv that talk about how if you just take this one cert class and get your mcp you'll be making $75,000 a year. Completely wrong.

But I do disagree about the thought that you've never met an mcse who knows their stuff. I have met quite a few who know Windows products and infrastructure incredibly well. At the same time, they would be hard pressed to install linux. That's the problem with being Microsoft centric...you tend to ignore the rest of the tech world. I'm guilty to an extent on this myself.

 

[TrueBuckeye]

Originally posted by TrechMaggotface
Although the certifications have definately become less valuable the dime a dozen comments are just not true. There are currently less than 5000 MCSEs on windows 2k3 worldwide. The same misconception exists about the ease of the exams. The legend began with the MCSE NT4.0. These exams were ridiculously easy. An MCSE on win2k3 will definately need to know more than a brick to pass the exam, especially if he/she chooses the design electives. Those scenarios are killers. Still, stay away from the cert unless you want to specialize in windows administration.

It depends on the test. 210 and 215 are really too easy. There is too little information to have 2 tests on...they should be combined. Right now they share 80% of the material.

On the other hand, 216 (Infrastructure) was the most difficult test I've ever taken, and that includes college. I haven't done my design test yet, but I hear that is a total bitch too. I can't wait.

 

[PHUNBALL]

Originally posted by shade91
Basically spouting how the industry is dying and not many jobs are available. I have a hard time containing myself knowing how wrong they are.

I'm not sure where you live, but around here IT jobs are very very slim and talking to people I know all over the country it is no different there. I know people that have been laid off numerous times from numerous company's (including myself) over the past few years, some of which are still looking for work. I also know people that are absolutely worthless when it comes to their job responsibilites that have never been laid off (just some proof that jobs are still being occupied by the unqualified). The industry has not yet corrected itself and wil probably take a little more time to do so, and until then jobs will remain slim...

 

[TrechMaggotface]

Agree completely on 210 and 215. The design exams are usually about 35 questions based on 4 scenarios. Each scenario has about 10 pages of information to digest. The exam is as much an exercise in reading comprehension as it is in network design. Bout 4 hours allowed and they took me bout 3 and a half. Best representation of real world knowledge ive seen short of a practicum, however. Sad thing is the MCSE can be attained without those difficult design exams

 

[Party2go9820]

This is an interesting thread to read considering I just got the approvial to go forward with my MCSA classes and tests. Fortunatly I already have the job - just wanted to be able to do more in it.

 

[TrueBuckeye]

Originally posted by Party2go9820
This is an interesting thread to read considering I just got the approvial to go forward with my MCSA classes and tests. Fortunatly I already have the job - just wanted to be able to do more in it.

Do it. You'll learn a few things and get some good experience. And if the job is helping with the expenses, then there is zero reason not to.

 

[SKiTLz]

Struth. Im yet to even take my A+. I just haven't needed the piece of paper yet. Im sure I'll get laid off though and I'll need some paper so im planning on doing my certs soon.

The problem I have is, although I know 90% of the material I choke on tests. Sit me down for any test, be it on nuclear physics or nba all stars, theres a good chance I'll choke. Give me a prac to show my knowledge though and Im sure id pass no worries.

4x sitting each cert it is for me. heh

 

[nameless_centurian]

hey, i failed 649-607..

then i passed 640-801..

believe me, there aren't too many differences.. although Novell was conspicuous by its abscence.

 

[electech98]

Though the market is saturated, there are some really good opportunities that sometimes come a-knockin' that you shouldn't miss.

In my situation, I happened to want to learn more about networking, so I took a nine-month course on networking administration that was mainly MCSE training. A couple months later, a job was posted in the newspaper for a credit union that was looking for a "computer network operator", which was an entry-level network admin job. I applied and got the job (out of a hundred or so applicants; most of those applicants were MCSE's or MCSA's) because I was very interested in the position (I asked a lot of questions about the networking environment) and they thought that it would be a good opportunity to get someone like me in the door of a networking career, instead of hiring an MCSE who knew it all already and wanted to take over the place - they wanted me to grow with the credit union's networking needs.

Anyways, I had no certifications when I was hired; the only things I had were a diploma from that school when I took the networking classes, and an eagerness for the job (plus more than half my life of various piddly computer experience). Over time, my desire to take the cert tests had increased, and so I decided to pursue the tests after a bunch of study. So far, I have 3 Microsoft certs (70-210, 70-215, and 70-218) as an MCP, on my way to an MCSA, and then to an MCSE...then I will look into the A+, Net+, etc. I am able to grow with the company in my knowledge and experience, which helps me in the tests as well. However, certs are not the end-all, be-all of a career in IT. I still have a long way to go, but I count on my hands-on experience more than anything.

By the way, I've been working at the credit union for about 2 years, and I make close to $30,000. So no, having certs does not automatically make one rich. But experience is the key, and my putting-up with my low wage for the meantime will pay off in the future.

If you already have a job in IT, great...go for the certs, and maybe your company will reevaluate your salary structure to reflect your knowledge...I believe that that might happen soon in my case. )

Enough of my rambling. Don't count on certs...get experience first, then get the certs as you gain experience. Both of them together *can* pay off big, if you're in the right situation.