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Network Administrators/DC Gurus...

U

UncleDavid218

2[H]4U
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
2,734
My friend Matt and I were thinking about a good project that would benefit society and would be easy to implement (using our skills). We somehow got on the topic of folding, and realized that our high school alone (of 3 high schools in our district) just got around 75 new Pentium D 820 based Dells. This is on top of probably 50 2.8GHz Pentium 4 based machines already in service. We thought, "Hey, if we could convince the district that this would benefit humanity while they are not losing anything, we would have one hell of a folding team!" So we're going to do just that, try and convince our school to allow this. We would donate our time in setting things up and regular maintenance if needed, and they would likely get some recognition for donating their CPU cycles (we'd name the folding team ISD709). We would calculate what they would be paying per PC for power each month before the proposition, to make sure its not insane (we could always run them at 50%, too). Fortunately, I have excellent writing skills and I think we could at least make an attempt!

What do you guys think, from an administrative point of view?
 
It's doable. There are a few guys that have a similar setup going on already and at least one person here who is the Network Administrator for a school and has such systems running.

There are some example letters floating around also if you search for them.
 
Ya, go for it!

Others here have done it... some successfully, some not. The sample letters looked pretty good to me.

Let us know how things turn out!

:D
 
I've honestly been searching for the last 15 minutes and have found some threads about it but no samples

But if they don't accept, I can contact the paper with a headline "Duluth Central Highschool Declines to Search For Cancer Cure" :D

But it's not like I have anything to lose in asking at least...
 
UncleDavid218 said:
But it's not like I have anything to lose in asking at least...
Click to expand...
that is the golden rule around here :D

hey, the worst they can say is no and that still doesnt mean you cant get computers from other sources to (just not a big one)
 
I asked my school about Folding@Home on the client computers and was declined because of the amount of bandwidth that would be used by 400+ computers downloading work packets from Stanfords servers... see if you can figure out just HOW MUCH bandwidth the amount of computers you're interested in b0rging would use - because the fact that my IT admins used that reason translates to "we're lazy bastards and don't GAF...".

Good Luck :D.
 
I didn't even consider the bandwidth that would be used. The IT department seriously has no idea what's going on, so our network is SLOW.

It takes 1-5 minutes to log onto any computer in the network.

So maybe what I'll do is try and first just get a computer lab with 25 PCs folding and see how that works?
 
UncleDavid218 said:
So maybe what I'll do is try and first just get a computer lab with 25 PCs folding and see how that works?
Click to expand...

i think that would be ok for testing (since you are gathering info to get permission) but remember, in the end make sure to get permission or remove it....just a friendly reminder :)


and if you get permission....remember....team 33 ;) (at least a couple for our help ;))
 
A long time to log on is probably not a bandwidth issue but a underpowered authentication server.
 
If it's a school district they might not be able to handle the increase in electricity costs, and once it gets warmer all the rooms will be hotter which will require more AC. I'd talk to them first and see if they will let you setup a test lab, and then go from there.

 
Does this look OK?


Matthew Pohl and I (David Humes) would like to meet with you regarding a project that we would like to do in cooperation with Independent School District 709's Technology Department.

The project is regarding an ongoing project through Stanford University called Folding at Home. Its intension is to study the relationships between molecules in proteins when they engage in a process called folding. The folding process is a hot area of study in medical research involving diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer, Huntington's Disease, Osteogenesis Imperfecta, and Parkinson's. The study of such behavior is very computationally intensive. It would be impossible to build and maintain a supercomputer large enough to complete all the studies that the researchers would like to study. Instead of using this method Stanford started Folding at Home.

Approximately 200,000 volunteers like me around the world run a small program on their PCs that downloads a packet of work to study. It then runs analysis using idle time; cycles of the processor that were not going to be used for anything else. The client runs at the lowest possible priority thus guaranteeing that the user does not see any ill effects.


Around Central I see several computers that sit at idle 75% of the day and then run all night when no one is around. I would like to jointly run this program on all or some of the school computers. Even if it was only in a single computer lab, every little bit counts. Since they're already on and consuming electricity I think that at least they might be contribution to a valuable scientific study instead of just wasting power. I have the program running 100% on my own computer and it seems to have no effect on the performance because it will turn itself down if extra power is needed for other programs (My computer has similar specifications of those listed in the minimum hardware standards list). From personal experience, when running Windows XP Professional or Windows Vista Business, RAM usage is almost immeasurable.

It is extremely easy to install and can be configured to use anywhere between 5 and 100 percent of idle cycles. The Pentium 4 and D based district computers would be perfect for use with the Folding at Home program. The program is installed as a service so that it runs even when no one is logged onto a particular computer. The packets it downloads are called work units. They vary in size between a few hundred kilobytes and several megabytes. It is possible to limit the machines from receiving large packets if network bandwidth is an issue. It is generally not a problem because work units can take more than a week to complete. A fifteen megabyte work unit may seem large but if it only needs to transfer data once per week the overall impact is low.

I'm involved in a dedicated community of Folding enthusiasts that would be happy to help with the configuration of the network and troubleshoot any possible problems. I ask that you please consider my request and reply as soon as possible. If it is convenient for you I'd like to meet to discuss my proposal and any objections. I would like to address any issues you might have with what I'm describing and I would like to identify a group of test machines on which FAH can run to gauge whether or not it would be an effective use of resources. I greatly appreciate your time and consideration.


Sincerely,



David Humes




PS where in MN are you located, MN Scout?
 
The proposal looks pretty good to me, nothing pops out that I would change myself, but you may consider adding an emphasis that the program is made by Stanford, and poses no security risk. Other than that I think it's a well done proposal.

If you get to talk to them face to face and they let you go ahead with this, that's awesome, but don't be too upset nor even surprised if they don't. As someone who has administrated large amounts of machines in a college, I can tell you that the IT staff isn't too big on anyone installing anything on machines without a true business/educational purpose, and the bandwidth and electrical costs can really add up to more than a lot of people think is possible. Your best bet is emphasizing it's purpose of finding cures for those specific diseases (strike the emotion nerve), it's oversight by Stanford (trustworthiness and security), the fact it doesn't interrupt or impact the users regular usage, and it's reality minor impact on power costs/bandwidth consumption. If they have genuine concerns, there are workarounds to alleviate what little impact there will be, and we can help you if you get that far. Good luck :cool:
 
Thank you. I've added the following regarding security:

If security is of any concern (which I'm sure it is), I can assure you that the Folding at Home client is quite safe. It was built and developed by Stanford University and uses a 2048 bit digital signature that is verified with each download of a new work unit. Stanford allows data to be transferred only from it's servers. The client is available for download from Stanford's website exclusively to ensure the integrity of all software is maintained.
 
I'd almost say that a couple of the areas are to specific. Though they might be just fine depending on who you are giving this to, and whether they like detailed information or are an individual who wants the least amount of information possible to make the decision.

"small program" , you might want to be more specific since you have already mentioned the Folding at Home program

"client" , again they might not know what you are talking about.

"I'm involved in a dedicated community of Folding enthusiasts that would be happy to help with the configuration of the network" , If I was your boss I might ask, "I thought you said it was easy to setup?"

Something your boss might also ask is "Why are the computers not being turned off at night?" You use that as a key reason why it should be folded, but it is also a reason why they should be shut off when not used. Maybe you could offer some solution to this like remote power down of the labs at a certain time of the night, and have FAH running the rest of the time.

"FAH" , "What is FAH?" at the top of the page you should say "Folding at Home (FAH)"

You might also want to talk more about the curing of cancers at the bottom. Just to touch on that topic again.

This is one of the better letters I have seen. I've never written one so you are way ahead of me.

...I'm going to school down in Mankato right now. "MN" is because I live in Minnesota and "Scout" because I recieved the rank of Eagle in Boy Scouts.
 
Thanks a lot. Just to clarify -- I'm a junior in high school proposing this to the Technical Director of our district.

(I'm mostly likely going to St. Thomas for college by the way)
 
Yeah that makes it a little more tough. I think you really want to get this person interested and fully onboard with the project. Maybe they'll have lost a family member or close friend to cancer, and that'll get them all onboard with installing FAH.

I've never done something like installing it across a whole bunch of computers before. I think you can include FAH on the image that gets cloned to all the computers. Or you can manually go around and install it individually on all of the computers if they don't get cleared off everytime they startup. I know unhappy_mage set up a install program for the console client that would be easy to run on every computer.

I'm at the University of Minnesota, Mankato campus.

 
UncleDavid218 said:
Does this look OK?


Matthew Pohl and I (David Humes) would like to meet with you regarding a project that we would like to do in cooperation with Independent School District 709's Technology Department.

The project is regarding an ongoing project through Stanford University called Folding at Home. Its intention is to study the relationships between molecules in proteins when they engage in a process called folding. The folding process is a hot area of study in medical research involving diseases like Alzheimer's, cancer, Huntington's Disease, Osteogenesis Imperfecta, and Parkinson's. The study of such behavior is very computationally intensive. It would be impossible to build and maintain a supercomputer large enough to complete all the studies that the researchers would like to study. Instead of using this method Stanford started Folding at Home.

Approximately 200,000 volunteers like me around the world run a small program on their PCs that downloads a packet of work to study. It then runs an analysis using idle time; cycles of the processor that were not going to be used for anything else. The client runs at the lowest possible priority thus guaranteeing that the user does not see any ill effects.


Around Central I see several computers that sit at idle 75% of the day and then run all night when no one is around. I would like to jointly run this program on all or some of the school computers. Even if it was only in a single computer lab, every little bit counts. Since they're already on and consuming electricity I think that at least they might be contributing to a valuable scientific study instead of just wasting power. I have the program running 100% on my own computer and it seems to have no effect on the performance because it will turn itself down if extra power is needed for other programs (My computer has similar specifications to those listed in the minimum hardware standards list). From personal experience, when running Windows XP Professional or Windows Vista Business, RAM usage is almost immeasurable.

It is extremely easy to install and can be configured to use anywhere between 5 and 100 percent of idle cycles. The Pentium 4 and D based district computers would be perfect for use with the Folding at Home program. The program is installed as a service so that it runs even when no one is logged onto a particular computer. The packets it downloads are called work units. They vary in size between a few hundred kilobytes and several megabytes. It is possible to limit the machines from receiving large packets if network bandwidth is an issue. It is generally not a problem because work units can take more than a week to complete. A fifteen megabyte work unit may seem large but if it only needs to transfer data once per week the overall impact is low.

I'm involved in a dedicated community of Folding enthusiasts that would be happy to help with the configuration of the network and troubleshoot any possible problems. I ask that you please consider my request and reply as soon as possible. If it is convenient for you I'd like to meet to discuss my proposal and any objections. I would like to address any issues you might have with what I'm describing and I would like to identify a group of test machines on which FAH can run to gauge whether or not it would be an effective use of resources. I greatly appreciate your time and consideration.
Click to expand...

Couple of things I don't like (or that were spelled wrong) that I highlighted in red. Call me nitpicky, but I didn't like them :p
 
UncleDavid218 said:
It takes 1-5 minutes to log onto any computer in the network.
Click to expand...

Letter looks good, good luck.

The login problem is because they don't have DNS properly configured, maybe you can have them correct that in the process.
 
I have been running folding on every one of our computers at work since early 2001. I haven't had a single issue with it in the last 5 years - some of the early program versions had the occasional problem, but that's old news now. Our desktops, laptops and even our servers run it. The bandwidth it takes is so inconsequential that I have never even considered that in my run it/don't run it analysis.

I only have two issues that I still have to deal with. First, I only run small WU's so that I keep memory requirements to a minimum. Second, I have a couple of laptop users who ask me about why their fans are running. Core2 Duos have pretty quiet fans, but I have had to kill FAH on a couple of laptops just to keep the users from whining. Back when we were running mostly P4 laptops, I could only run the program during off hours because they had screaming fans that nobody would have been able to tolerate.

I guess what I'm saying is that I have found no good reason not to run FAH on every computer in an organization. Individual exceptions can be made, but they're going to be your most critical servers, noisy laptops or antiquated systems. Good luck getting your systems administrator to allow you to fold!
 
David,

While I think your project is a very worthwhile activity, Technology is unable to meet your request because of the following reasons:

Security - We would have to open our network to allow this to happen.

Application - This would need to be a school sanctioned activity or a classroom project for us to justify using district resources.

Software - The client to be installed would need to be tested to make sure is does not conflict with our existing installed software.


I'm sorry we can not assist you with your project, but the security concerns alone would prevent us from becoming involved.
Click to expand...
Umm... what security concerns?

It's quite obvious that he did not even consider this as I only sent it to him at 12PM today and received the email at 2:55PM

I'm not, however, giving up



Mattman, would you please take the time on my behalf and share your experiences with our technology coordinator?

If you PM me I can give you his e-mail address.
 
Security - shoot down the issue with cold hard facts.
for example: show what IPs the client connects to, and on what ports.

Application - talk to a biology teacher, and get a classroom project going on it.


Software - so test it. If installed as a service, I don't know of anything that would cause any problems. folding veterans might know of some conflict, though.
 
Alright. While I know some things about the security, I am also definitely not a veteran.

What should I say to persuade him that security is clearly not the issue here?
 
i think the major problem you run into is most IT shops, especially those in govt/public schools arent keen on upgrading. If you presented that proposal at my current job (local govt) every computer that gets a virus, blue screens, seems a little slow, has a corrupted hard drive, or a user who accidentally deletes a file will be blamed on that "one who kid who installed that thing."

im not trying to discourage you, but being closeminded is what IT seems to have become sometimes.

good luck cuz ur sure gonna need it!
 
Close minded, truly uneducated about computers and don’t forget lazy.

One common thread I have noticed in almost every proposal that I have seen proposed here is possibly one of the most important points to get across. Show them the numbers of teams and people actually involved in the entire project.

I might also suggest probing Stanford’s stat site looking at the top teams and how many computers each of these folders are responsible for getting set up. Use the [H]ardfolding site as well to show comparative numbers.

Keep in mind most people don’t even know this project exists let alone the vast numbers of people, schools and companies participating.

Sometimes seeing the whole scope of a thing can change people’s minds. I’d suggest an in-person interview as opposed to email; it’s far more personal especially if you are a persuasive speaker.

Luck


 
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