Need some suggestions for app/web server

R

runningincircles

Limp Gawd
Joined
Jun 25, 2001
Messages
247
We are looking at a new application that will require two dedicated servers.

They suggested:
4 way cpu and 8gb ram for the app server
2 way cpu and 4gb ram for the web server

I'm not one to waste money on over powered systems just for grins. I am just getting into server administration so I am still ignorant to a large portion of this grade of gear.

Other things I could use suggestions on!
Database server utilizing MS SQL Server 2008 Standard. Our current database is about 2.6GB and will grow about 2GB per year estimated.

Network attached storage solution. Something redundent that has good I/O speed.

Battery Backups

2 24U racks. Our server room is on the second floor and putting everything in one rack concerns me with the weight. Currently I have no rack

My budget for this project is around $15k and will need to include O/S license but not user CAL's. I have those currently.


Current network
Dell T610 DC Server 2008 with 100 user cals
Dell 2900 Server 2008 Exchange Server
HP Procurve 24 port switch with 2 gigabit ports
Barracuda spam filter appliance
Sonicwall Firewall
20MB Fiber optic internet connection


I talked to Dell but I just feel like the quotes I'm seeing are overboard but maybe that is just the nature of this. Is $5,000 a server without O/S typical for an application server that will have maybe 50 concurrent users? I am considering building the servers so that I can have a N+1 environment instead of buying from dell/hp. Have any of you used SSD in a server before? Sorry if I rambled on and asked too much in one thread. I'll work on researching and consolidate my thoughts as we go.
 
runningincircles said:
I talked to Dell but I just feel like the quotes I'm seeing are overboard but maybe that is just the nature of this. Is $5,000 a server without O/S typical for an application server that will have maybe 50 concurrent users? I am considering building the servers so that I can have a N+1 environment instead of buying from dell/hp.
Click to expand...

dont know about the rest, but from what ive heard you are paying a premium for service/support when buying servers from hp/dell, if you build it yourself, granted it would be cheaper, but can you manage it?
 
runningincircles said:
Is $5,000 a server without O/S typical for an application server that will have maybe 50 concurrent users?
Click to expand...

I would consider a $5K server cheap, especially since you are likely getting at least NBD support for parts. They will break, and if you build it yourself you better have spare parts on hand depending on the expected SLA.

We can't say if a $5K server will handle 50 clients without knowing the load they generate or the hardware quoted.

Haven't used SSDs yet - enterprise SSDs (write durable) are hella expensive.
 
Without knowing the app specifics it's hard to say but those are some pretty beefy boxes that can handle quite a load. Make sure your software rep is telling you what you need for your environment and not just what's on the spec sheet.

As others have said - that dell quote seems about right, a chunk of your cost is for support but at the enterprise level it's pretty good, knowledgeable English speaking techs who generally know what they are doing. One thing I would never do is build your own box for a work environment. It may seem cheaper now but trying to find a replacement part when it fails (and it will) and get it working again, etc is a huge PITA. The previous IT guy where I work know built the servers whitebox- now they're all junk and trying to find replacement drives and such has been a huge headache, not to mention they're crap anyway since they were made from cheap parts.

Bottom line- don't build your own.
 
After thinking long and hard I agree with not rolling my own at this time... at least for the production environment. Your words have not fallen on deaf ears!

Since this is a new application I cannot attest to the load requirements. All I have to go on is the advice of the engineer at the company. Tweaks to the systems below are appreciated!

Web Server:

PE R610 with Chassis for Up to Six 2.5-Inch Hard Drives and Intel® 56XX Processors (224-8479)
PowerEdge R610 Shipping (330-4122)
6GB Memory (3x2GB), 1333MHz Dual Ranked UDIMMs for 1 Processor, Optimized (317-0226)
Embedded Broadcom, GB Ethernet NICS with TOE (430-1764)
Embedded Broadcom, GB Ethernet NICS with TOE and ISCSI Offload Enabled (430-2970)
Intel XeonE5620 2.4Ghz, 12M Cache,Turbo, HT, 1066MHz Max Mem (317-4112)
No Second Processor (311-3928)
HD Multi-Select (341-4158)
PERC H700 Integrated RAID Controller, 512MB Cache (342-0662)
146GB 15K RPM Self-Encrypting SA SCSI 6Gbps 2.5in Hotplug Hard Drive (342-0552) - Quantity 2
Broadcom 5709 Dual Port 1GbE NIC w/TOE iSCSI, PCIe-4 (430-3260)
iDRAC6 Express (467-8649)
DVD+/-RW, SATA, INTERNAL (313-9090)
RAID 1 for H700, PERC 6/i, H200 or SAS 6/iR Controllers (341-8755)
Sliding Ready Rails With CableManagement Arm (330-3520)
Pro Support for IT: Next Business Day Onsite Service After Problem Diagnosis, 2Year Extended (993-0092)
ProSupport for IT: 7x24 HW / SW Tech Support and Assistance for Certified IT Staff, 3 Year (993-0132)
Pro Support for IT: Next Business Day Onsite Service After Problem Diagnosis, Initial Year (993-3790)
Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Plus On Site Service Initial Year (993-9457)
Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Extended Year (993-9458)

Application Server

PE R610 with Chassis for Up to Six 2.5-Inch Hard Drives and Intel® 56XX Processors (224-8479)
PowerEdge R610 Shipping (330-4122)
12GB Memory (6x2GB), 1333Mhz Dual Ranked RDIMMs for 2 Processors (317-1288)
Embedded Broadcom, GB Ethernet NICS with TOE (430-1764)
Embedded Broadcom, GB Ethernet NICS with TOE and ISCSI Offload Enabled (430-2970)
Intel XeonE5620 2.4Ghz, 12M Cache,Turbo, HT, 1066MHz Max Mem (317-4112)
Intel Xeon E5620 2.4Ghz, 12M Cache,Turbo, HT, 1066MHz Max Mem (317-4124)
HD Multi-Select (341-4158)
PERC 6/i SAS RAID Controller 2x4 Connectors, Internal, PCIe256MB Cache (341-9254)
146GB 15K RPM Self-Encrypting SA SCSI 6Gbps 2.5in Hotplug Hard Drive (342-0552) - Quantity 2
Broadcom 5709 Dual Port 1GbE NIC w/TOE iSCSI, PCIe-4 (430-3260)
iDRAC6 Express (467-8649)
DVD+/-RW, SATA, INTERNAL (313-9090)
RAID 1 for H700, PERC 6/i, H200 or SAS 6/iR Controllers (341-8755)
Sliding Ready Rails With CableManagement Arm (330-3520)
Pro Support for IT: Next Business Day Onsite Service After Problem Diagnosis, 2Year Extended (993-0092)
ProSupport for IT: 7x24 HW / SW Tech Support and Assistance for Certified IT Staff, 3 Year (993-0132)
Pro Support for IT: Next Business Day Onsite Service After Problem Diagnosis, Initial Year (993-3790)
Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Plus On Site Service Initial Year (993-9457)
Dell Hardware Limited Warranty Extended Year (993-9458)
 
runningincircles said:
After thinking long and hard I agree with not rolling my own at this time... at least for the production environment. Your words have not fallen on deaf ears!

Since this is a new application I cannot attest to the load requirements. All I have to go on is the advice of the engineer at the company. Tweaks to the systems below are appreciated!


<snip>
Click to expand...

15k RPM drives may be a bit overkill for the webserver, with only ~50 concurrent users.
As for the app server, and using SQL, may be worth it, or could be overkill.


as for the rest, that's pretty much what we've been going with.
Although Server 2008 and 2003 32-bit Standard cannot use more than 4GB of RAM.
 
j-sta said:
15k RPM drives may be a bit overkill for the webserver, with only ~50 concurrent users.
As for the app server, and using SQL, may be worth it, or could be overkill.


as for the rest, that's pretty much what we've been going with.
Although Server 2008 and 2003 32-bit Standard cannot use more than 4GB of RAM.
Click to expand...

The web server will have probably 300-400 users per day on and off. I will look into a lower priced drive and see what kind of difference it would make. Possibly that could allow me to drop the dedicated controller card as well?

All systems will be Windows Server 2008 Standard 64bit.
 
runningincircles said:
The web server will have probably 300-400 users per day on and off. I will look into a lower priced drive and see what kind of difference it would make. Possibly that could allow me to drop the dedicated controller card as well?

All systems will be Windows Server 2008 Standard 64bit.
Click to expand...

I would still stick with a SAS drive, 10k RPM. So you would still need the PERC6 card. I don't believe the onboard does SAS, only SATA. What kind of data will they be pulling up? Is the web-server essentially the front-end for the application server, with SQL being the back-end?

also looking at it again; self-encrypting harddrive? are the servers locked up in a server room? if so, definitely save some coin by not using a hdd with onboard encryption. Unless the encryption is necessary with any security policies at the business. Or, of course, unless that's the only option you have from Dell on the 15k RPM SAS drives.
 
This is more of a nitpick but I, like many others I know here, would suggest moving to the Intel based NICs. While the Broadcom based units are sufficient the Intels will perform better under load. Plus, it looks like there is zero cost to go from the 2-port Broadcoms to the 2-port Intels on the R610.
 
PanzerBoxb said:
This is more of a nitpick but I, like many others I know here, would suggest moving to the Intel based NICs. While the Broadcom based units are sufficient the Intels will perform better under load. Plus, it looks like there is zero cost to go from the 2-port Broadcoms to the 2-port Intels on the R610.
Click to expand...

err... nope.
Dell's configuration page is confusing as hell.

The first spot where you can choose a NIC, is for an add-in card, which is where Broadcom 5709 Dual Port 1GbE NIC w/TOE iSCSI, PCIe-4 (430-3260) comes from.
You could actually remove that, as the motherboard already has the integrated Dual Two-Port Embedded Broadcom® NetXtreme II 5709 Gigabit Ethernet NIC which is shown down at the bottom of the configuration page ;)

If you remove the 430-3260, that'll save you $200
unless you need four ports :p

FWIW, the 4 PE 2850's and 1 PE 2650 I'm supporting at a 24/7 facility with roaming profiles and ~50+- concurrent users, the embedded NICs are working just fine and dandy.
 
PanzerBoxb said:
Whoopsie. :D
Click to expand...

it took me and a co-worker about 15 minutes to figure it out. He sent me a quote for some replacements, and I thought "4-port NIC with copper capability? overkill!"

after scrolling up and down the page dozens of times, finally realized that the first NIC selection you're given is for an add-in, not the onboard. The onboard is at the very bottom.

I think Dell makes it confusing like that so you "accidentally" order an add-in card you don't need and they make more monies :p
 
The more I ask the less I feel that I will need those servers and can go with something smaller initially.

Thoughts?

Application Server:

PowerEdge R310 Chassis, Up to 4 Hot Plug Hard Drives and LCD diagnostics (224-8312)
12GB Memory (6x2GB), 800MHz, Dual Ranked RDIMM (317-3563)
X3430 Xeon Processor, 2.4GHz, 8M Cache, Turbo (317-2310)
PERC H200 Adapter RAID Controller (342-0729)
146GB 10K RPM SA SCSI 6Gbps 2.5in Hotplug Hard Drive in 3.5in HYB CARR (342-2015) - Quantity 2
On-Board Dual Gigabit Network Adapter (430-2008)
DVD ROM, SATA, INTERNAL (313-9126)
RAID 1 - Add-in SAS6iR/H200/ H700 (SAS/SATA Cntrlr), 2 Hot Plug HDD (330-8175)

Web Server:

PowerEdge R310 Chassis, Up to 4 Hot Plug Hard Drives and LCD diagnostics (224-8312)
4GB Memory (4x1GB), 1333MHz, Single Ranked RDIMM (317-2866)
X3430 Xeon Processor, 2.4GHz, 8M Cache, Turbo (317-2310)
250GB 7.2K RPM SATA 3.5" Hot Plug Hard Drive (341-8727) - Quantity 2
On-Board Dual Gigabit Network Adapter (430-2008)
DVD ROM, SATA, INTERNAL (313-9126)
RAID 1 - Add-in SAS6iR/H200/ H700 (SAS/SATA Cntrlr), 2 Hot Plug HDD (330-8175)

This will let me have a refresh on a lot of other items including:
42U Rack
Install Dedicated 220 Power
Dedicating a server area with separate climate control
Gigabit Managed Switch
New Battery backups with line conditioners
NAS device for file storage
 
I think I will add one more hard drive to each for the swap and temporary files. I've always done this on personal computers and seemed to help with performance and general fragmentation. Is this purely mental and actually has no real world benefit? I just got through with meeting the contractor and have planned out my server room! It will be so nice to not sit in the same room with them anymore. I will be using one of the Mitsubishi ductless A/C units to help control the temperature. I will post pics as things get rolling. Thanks again for the help!!
 
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