Need Some advice from the pros...

[Light1984]

Let me first apologize, cause this thread might get a little long, but please bare with me. I have no experience with water cooling, but i tried to soak up as much as I could from the stickies. However, I still have a few unanswered questions. Ive included a diagram of some setups I was thinking about to help illustrate ( i have too much time on my hands... lol )

1. I believe I read somewhere that the reservoir had to be the highest point in the system loop, if thats true that would make options 3 and 4 in the diagram worthless, however these would provide the most cooling power due to the larger radiators. So is it ok for the radiator to be the highest point?

2. If the radiator can be the highest point, which would be a better setup, 3 or 4. It seems most people choose setup 4 as far as which way to pull air through the radiator. But my concern is the air being blown into the case. Having no experience with water cooling, I dont know how hot the air coming off the radiator is; is it enough to significantly raise ambient temp inside case, and by significant, I mean by more than 5 degrees celcius?

3. If the top mount rad's wont work, and I am forced to go with option 1 or 2, will a single 120mm fan radiator still be enough cooling for lets say an A64 FX-57 and an nforce 4 sli chipset?

4. Would I see any significant difference in temps between a single 5 1/4" bay reservoir, and a dual setup? The differences being how long till the water reaches its "equilibrium" correct? If at most Im only on my computer for 5 hours, would it be worth it to get the dual bay setup?

5. And lastly, could anyone give me some educated guesses as to what temps I would see with the two different radiators in the diagrams ( Black Ice Xtreme and Black Ice Xtreme II). Im shooting for high 20's idle and low 30's load; is that possible with any of the setups and hardware listed below? A lot of the posts in the "show your rig" thread have people posting up temps as well, and everyone Ive seen have the same temps I get now with AIR cooling or worse, which kind of turns me off to watercooling. I was really hoping to get much lower temps than my Swiftech MCX-462 HS and Vantec 92mm Tornado on Athlon xp 3200 (37idle 42 load).

Copper TDX Block for Athlon64
ASUS A8N MAZE4 Chipset Block
12V DD-D5 Pump
Black Ice Xtreme II Radiator
Tygon 3603 Tubing 1/2" ID 3/4" OD
Danger Den Dual 5 1/4" Bay Reservoir (or Single)


Thanks for reading.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

Well, first off, the only thing that really matters in terms of placement is that if you have a resevoir, it is preferable to have it right before the pump in the loop. Otherwise, do whatever works for your case and has the least amount of tubing.
As for single vs dual, you won't see any cooling different. at all. whatsoever. you don't even need a resevoir anyway

 

[Erasmus354]

1. No the resevoir does not need to be the highest point in the loop, it is simply a very good idea to make the resevoir higher than the pump.

2. The air will not be significantly hotter, it is usually best to pull cool air in through the radiator into the case.

3. Yes a single 120mm will be enough, but dual 120mm gives you a lot more headroom if you do any overclocking.

4. No, the coolant reaches its equilibrium temperature rather quickly, a bigger resevoir will not aid in cooling at all.

5. If you live in Alaska in the winter perhaps Temperatures are really entirely dependent upon the ambient temperature. A really good setup in a nice cool air conditioned room could get those temps.

As for the setup, I would use #3, but use the fans as intake. Fans work better pulling air through the radiator rather than pushing it through. Also, it seems like you really want a high performance setup, for the waterblock you cant go wrong with the new Swiftech STORM waterblock, great performer and will give you the best shot at attaining your wanted temperatures.

 

[BillR]

Not to mention, if you live in Alaska in the winter you can completely violate the short hose rule. Put that radiator outside and live large and cool.

 

[Light1984]

sounds good guys, thx for the responses

 

[Erasmus354]

sounds good guys, thx for the responses

Anytime, if you have any more questions dont hesitate to ask, there are many knowledgeable people here who are more than happy to help provide suggestions/ideas.

 

[DFI Daishi]

well, two comments from the peanut gallery:

the black ice pro II is usually a better performer with quiet fans, and is a bit cheaper than the BIX II.

fans should pull air through the rad if possible, rather than pushing it. the difference in performance isn't huge, and sometimes it is more difficult to plumb everything with the fans in pull config, but if you can do it reasonably easily, you should probably go for it.

 

[Russ]

Yea, I'll third that you should pull air through the rad.

What about a heatercore? You seem to be getting your stuff from Danger Den, so the double heatercore available there is a cheap way to get the same performance as the BIX and BIP lines of rads. Plus you can get a shroud for cheap if you buy a heatercore.

I would have the fans pulling air out the top of your case and the rad just below them, then the front fan pulling air in and the side fan pulling air in and the back fan pulling air out.

edit: Oops. Forgot to say, don't get a chipset block! Just get a different heatsink or fan or something that will cost you like $10 if you absolutely need it. Chipsets dont get that hot, even when overclocking. A graphics card block will serve you much better.

 

[Light1984]

thx again guys. russ, about your suggested setup, i thought that you need higher air pressure in any case, wouldnt your suggested setup leave a lower pressure, or does the pressure really not matter?

and as far as the heater core vs black ice series, would the only difference be price, or would i see better performance with one or the other. i like the black ice radiators because they are painted, i know asthetics isnt everything, but i may go with a completely clear acrylic case, and so its gotta look perty

 

[Vertigo Acid]

thx again guys. russ, about your suggested setup, i thought that you need higher air pressure in any case, wouldnt your suggested setup leave a lower pressure, or does the pressure really not matter?

In terms of dust collection it matters; negative pressure inside the case means that air will be sucked up through all the holes and cracks in the case, and more dust will collect on the insides as a consequence. In terms of cooling performance, it doesn't really matter AFAIK

 

[DFI Daishi]

regarding the cores: they usually perform so close to the black ice rads when both are in the 2x120mm size that it doesn't matter from that point of view. at that size, the rad is seldom going to be your system's bottleneck.

the cores are quite a lot cheaper, but don't look as nice out of the box (although you can paint them quite easily) and are not as easy to install. i regard them as a way to save some money at the sacrifice of some time and work on your part, without hurting performance much, if at all.

still, the thermochill PA160.1, HE120.2 and black ice pro 2 rads are all superior watercooling rads, in about that order of performance.

regarding the chipset waterblock: since there are so few heatsinks that fit that board without interfering with the graphics cards, i can sort of understand going with a waterblock for that reason.....although it might be a thought to see how far stock cooling will take you, depending on how bad shipping is if you decide that you need the added cooling after the fact.

 

[Light1984]

wow, things are coming along nicely, thx for the replies. My final question, i guess would have to be about filters. If i go with the dual 120mm top mount setup sucking air in from outside the case, do you guys recommend going with some mesh filters on top of the radiator like these

http://www.xoxide.com/12alfanfil.html

or something better perhaps, or nothing at all?

ok, sorry couldnt resist, one more question, DFI, those radiators you listed in order of performance, the first one is a single 120mm and the second a dual 120mm. A single performs better than a double?

 

[Vertigo Acid]

ok, sorry couldnt resist, one more question, DFI, those radiators you listed in order of performance, the first one is a single 120mm and the second a dual 120mm. A single performs better than a double?

The PA160 is a newer, better performing design than either the BIP2 or the HE120.2
So yes

 

[Erasmus354]

The PA160 is a newer, better performing design than either the BIP2 or the HE120.2
So yes

No the PA160 does not perform better than a BIP2. It is designed to have performance "on par" with dual 120mm radiators, while only using a single quiet 120mm fan. The performance is about the same as a dual 120mm rad, if a bit worse even.

 

[Vertigo Acid]

No the PA160 does not perform better than a BIP2. It is designed to have performance "on par" with dual 120mm radiators, while only using a single quiet 120mm fan. The performance is about the same as a dual 120mm rad, if a bit worse even.

Hmm, good to know; I thought it was beating out the BIP2, but I guess not

 

[DFI Daishi]

wow, things are coming along nicely, thx for the replies. My final question, i guess would have to be about filters. If i go with the dual 120mm top mount setup sucking air in from outside the case, do you guys recommend going with some mesh filters on top of the radiator like these

http://www.xoxide.com/12alfanfil.html

or something better perhaps, or nothing at all?

ok, sorry couldnt resist, one more question, DFI, those radiators you listed in order of performance, the first one is a single 120mm and the second a dual 120mm. A single performs better than a double?

first, i don't reccomend filters, since they impede performance somewhat while clean, and aren't a whole lot easier to clean than the rad itself. i would tend to say that no filters and regular cleaning is a better option. monthly, if you have no pets, and more often if you do.

second, please shorten my handle to daishi, if you wish to shorten it. i start to think of fire and large hammers when people call me DFI. i really should have picked a different name, even though it is appropriate in it's way.

third, the PA160.1 with a 30db panaflo L1A fan performs very nearly as well as the HE120.2 or BIP with two 40 db panaflo H1A fans, although not quite as well. if you go at it noise level, per noise level, the PA160.1 seems to come out ahead every time, and is quite enough for cooling a full system on its own.

http://www.overclockers.com/articles778/index04.asp
http://www.thermochill.com/pa160.php (i hope to see an overclockers review confirm these numbers)
http://www.delta.com.tw/product/cp/dcfans/download/pdf/AFB/AFBseries.pdf (for data to work out fan vs fan comparisons)