Need Opty Advice

T

theseeker

2[H]4U
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Apr 27, 2005
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I am about to build a dual Opty system and I need some advice.
This system will be used for my business apps and gaming as well. The business apps are very large speadsheets and engineering 3d models. I will be using 2 7800GTX's, 1 Maxtor 15k 147gb boot drive and 1 or 2 large SATA drives. PSU will be PC P&C 850 or 1KW and the case will be the Silverstone TJ07. As far as the gaming goes, I mainly play COD2, BIA2, you get the idea. I will most likely water cool the CPU's, GPU's and possibly the NB. I am curious to know which Opterons would be the best fit? Thanks in advance.
 
well, you need to differentiate between dual processor and dual core. from what i see below, you're prolly heading the in the dual core range, versus the dual core range.

here's what i'd suggest (dual core, single proc):
1.) AMD Opteron 170 or 175 processor - retail
2.) at least 2GB of PC3200 memory
3.) Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe
4.) your hardware, etc.

if you wanted to go down the dual processor (and potentially dual proc/dual core):
1.) Supermicro H8DCE mainboard (8 x SATA ports onboard; can be oc'd using nTune)
2.) at least 2GB of ECC/PC3200 memory
3.) 2 x AMD Opteron 254 (single core) or 2 x 265/270 (dual core)
4.) the remainder of your parts.

and, whaddya know...I've got a few of these parts lying around my house right now.

regarding the SCSI drive, you have a controller card for that?

feel free to call me (# is in sig) if you wanna talk about this more.

dave
 
dave_graham said:
well, you need to differentiate between dual processor and dual core. from what i see below, you're prolly heading the in the dual core range, versus the dual core range.

here's what i'd suggest (dual core, single proc):
1.) AMD Opteron 170 or 175 processor - retail
2.) at least 2GB of PC3200 memory
3.) Asus A8N32-SLI Deluxe
4.) your hardware, etc.

if you wanted to go down the dual processor (and potentially dual proc/dual core):
1.) Supermicro H8DCE mainboard (8 x SATA ports onboard; can be oc'd using nTune)
2.) at least 2GB of ECC/PC3200 memory
3.) 2 x AMD Opteron 254 (single core) or 2 x 265/270 (dual core)
4.) the remainder of your parts.

and, whaddya know...I've got a few of these parts lying around my house right now.

regarding the SCSI drive, you have a controller card for that?

feel free to call me (# is in sig) if you wanna talk about this more.

dave
Click to expand...

I was going to use the TYAN MB with the SCSI controller on the MB and for memory I plan to go with 8 GB's of Corsair.
 
Sounds like my system. You will have no problems running anything. Sorry for the messy picture below. I had to move my video card water block to the side till I get my new waterblocks. Enjoy.

Supermicro H8DCE
Dual Opteron 854's @ 3.0GHz "Same as 254's"
2GB 4 X 512 DDR-400 3-3-3-8
2 WD Raptors (1 for OS & 1 for games)
1 Maxtor 300gb
Dual 7800 GTX 512 SLI
OCZ Powerstream 520
Koolance EXOS-2 Watercooling


 
The 3D modelling is what will make or break the system.

Chances are you're underbuilding like everyone else. Painfully so. If I had a dime for everyone who came to me complaining about Quadro and FireGL versus Wildcat, I could buy a pair of 16-way systems. We won't add insult to injury with REALiZM vs gaming cards.

Skip the Tyan at all costs. The 53C1030 was done wrong on it, and hasn't been fixed. Not to mention the other bugs. If you're going SCSI, H8DCE and LSI Ultra320-2E; the 320-2E is virtually identical to the rest of the family, just PCI-Express instead of PCI-X. PSU is severe overkill. You only need a 510SLI.

I build systems like this all day long. Best I can recommend is;
Supermicro H8DCE
Dual 250-254's
Dual REALiZM 500's or 800's
Straight SATA (Areca 1200-family on top PCIe)
PCP&C 510SSI (this is MORE than enough power.)
 
For games the 254's are the best CPU's you can get. Though they are somewhat expensive. They are less expensive though then their FX-57 counterparts in Athlon land.
 
theseeker said:
CAD
Click to expand...

But which specific applications? Solidworks? Dassault? AutoCAD 2006?
My gut instinct is to recommend starting with a single REALiZM 500 in an H8DCE. If it's not fast enough, add a second, which will literally come close to doubling performance. You'll be okay with 248's-252's if you use REALiZMs; the Quadros and FireGLs devour CPU when you're trying to do real work.

You'll also want to consider your storage requirements very carefully. SCSI will help, but isn't necessary. However, software RAID, partial software RAID (onboard nForce), or weak hardware RAID is going to hurt you a lot more than you expect. Especially when working with larger models. As far as SATA goes, stacked RAID1 is the best route, but only the LSI 150-x family does that as far as I know. And guess what's not available in PCIe? :(
I think the best recommendation on disk, therefore, is going to be necessitated overkill; LSI Ultra320-2E with BBU, 2x Fujitsu MAS or Hitachi 15K174 73GB drives in RAID1 for OS/Application, and 2-or-more Hitachi 10K300 174GB drives in RAID1 for storage. I wish I could recommend another controller, but there isn't anything else out there yet.
 
AreEss said:
But which specific applications? Solidworks? Dassault? AutoCAD 2006?
My gut instinct is to recommend starting with a single REALiZM 500 in an H8DCE. If it's not fast enough, add a second, which will literally come close to doubling performance. You'll be okay with 248's-252's if you use REALiZMs; the Quadros and FireGLs devour CPU when you're trying to do real work.

You'll also want to consider your storage requirements very carefully. SCSI will help, but isn't necessary. However, software RAID, partial software RAID (onboard nForce), or weak hardware RAID is going to hurt you a lot more than you expect. Especially when working with larger models. As far as SATA goes, stacked RAID1 is the best route, but only the LSI 150-x family does that as far as I know. And guess what's not available in PCIe? :(
I think the best recommendation on disk, therefore, is going to be necessitated overkill; LSI Ultra320-2E with BBU, 2x Fujitsu MAS or Hitachi 15K174 73GB drives in RAID1 for OS/Application, and 2-or-more Hitachi 10K300 174GB drives in RAID1 for storage. I wish I could recommend another controller, but there isn't anything else out there yet.
Click to expand...

Auto CAD, yea the HD cofig has me concerned.
 
theseeker said:
Auto CAD, yea the HD cofig has me concerned.
Click to expand...

It's simply a lack of availability on the controller front that's so confounding. The Areca, so far as I know, does not allow array span or stack. (Whereas LSI does.) It may. In truth, the Areca in RAID1 may be adequate. Or it may not. The PCI-Express part isn't a simple bridge, so I can't compare it to the PCI-X numbers (which were reasonable but certainly nothing to write home about in comparison to SCSI.)

Thankfully, I can save us all some tremendous headaches. We should see the H8DC8 on shelves soon.
http://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/motherboard/Opteron/nForce/H8DC8.cfm
What is it? nForce 2200+2050+AMD 8132. Yes Virginia, dual 16x with PCIe 4x with PCI-X 133. (Note; 8132, not 8131. The 8132 is a MUCH improved version.) So start bouncing around PCI-X controllers, folks. I'll start with the 53C1030C with a channel split configuration, at around $100. (Granted, it's only 66MHz, but still..)
 
AreEss said:
It's simply a lack of availability on the controller front that's so confounding. The Areca, so far as I know, does not allow array span or stack. (Whereas LSI does.) It may. In truth, the Areca in RAID1 may be adequate. Or it may not. The PCI-Express part isn't a simple bridge, so I can't compare it to the PCI-X numbers (which were reasonable but certainly nothing to write home about in comparison to SCSI.)

Thankfully, I can save us all some tremendous headaches. We should see the H8DC8 on shelves soon.
http://www.supermicro.com/Aplus/motherboard/Opteron/nForce/H8DC8.cfm
What is it? nForce 2200+2050+AMD 8132. Yes Virginia, dual 16x with PCIe 4x with PCI-X 133. (Note; 8132, not 8131. The 8132 is a MUCH improved version.) So start bouncing around PCI-X controllers, folks. I'll start with the 53C1030C with a channel split configuration, at around $100. (Granted, it's only 66MHz, but still..)
Click to expand...

I found six stores, but they do not have it in stock and no ETA :(
 
dave_graham said:
i can get the H8DC8
Click to expand...

Can get is different from having. It's not available for general order yet. I can get it too. If you wanna wait 2-4 weeks minimum. Hell, I can get 256's and 275's and 4GB DIMMs and 16-ways with dual PCIe 16x slots! You'll just have to wait and wait and wait.

There are some evaluation boards floating around. Can't say much more than that. Either way, all the good of the H8DCE with PCI-X added. They'll be available soon enough.
 
AreEss said:
I'll start with the 53C1030C with a channel split configuration, at around $100. (Granted, it's only 66MHz, but still..)
Click to expand...
All I can find is the 53c1030 - is that what you meant (it's 133 mHz)? I'll second the recommendation on the scsi side; every experience I've had with LSI scsi adapters has been positive. Any SAS ideas?
AreEss said:
As far as SATA goes, stacked RAID1 is the best route
Click to expand...
Do you mean 0+1? I've never heard the term "stacked" in any other context. The Areca does raid 10, which is marginally better in terms of reliability IIRC.

What are the access patterns of CAD stuff like? I haven't seen benchmarks on this stuff. What size files are you working with, and is it sequential or random access? IO depth? Average IO size? A Filemon trace of a large model loading, or a render running, or whatever seems to hit the disk hardest, would help me figure out what's best suited for this.

Last, unless I'm missing something, even Newegg has the 275s in stock...

 
AreEss said:
Can get is different from having. It's not available for general order yet. I can get it too. If you wanna wait 2-4 weeks minimum. Hell, I can get 256's and 275's and 4GB DIMMs and 16-ways with dual PCIe 16x slots! You'll just have to wait and wait and wait.

There are some evaluation boards floating around. Can't say much more than that. Either way, all the good of the H8DCE with PCI-X added. They'll be available soon enough.
Click to expand...

ummm...dude, do you even know who i am?

if not, let's just say that i work quite closely with supermicro and amd.

if so, then what you posted shouldn't matter.

dave
 
dave_graham said:
ummm...dude, do you even know who i am?
if not, let's just say that i work quite closely with supermicro and amd.
if so, then what you posted shouldn't matter.
Click to expand...

More power to you if you've got them in stock. Mine are backordered, I've been told could be up to two weeks right now.
 
theseeker said:
Any suggestions on memory? I intend to use 8GB's.
Click to expand...

i tend to just stick with the crucial stuff. works 99% of the time in most cases and can't beat it. that being said, i'm starting to work with SuperTalent a lot more and am really digging their stuff for workstations.

dave
 
theseeker said:
Any suggestions on memory? I intend to use 8GB's.
Click to expand...

Samsung, ATP, Crucial, Kingston in that order.
You'll get the best timings and stability out of Samsung and ATP. ATP's harder to find retail.

Samsung I recommend the M312L5623AUS-CCC or M312L5620AUS-CCC 2GB DIMMs; the 623's are 128x8, the 620's are 256x4, both rated 3-3-3 but most will do 2.5-3-3 or better on the H8DCE.
ATP, use AB56L72Z4BFC4M or AB56L72Z4BFC4C. Also 2GB, 3-3-3.
 
Thanks, it appears everywhere I look that Samsung is recommended the most for either MB. Think I am going to go with the 254's, the Pc P&C 850 and Samsung RAM. I still havent decided between TYAN and SM for the MB, I have found pros and cons for both. I currently have a V2000 case for my sig rig and I am trying to decide wether to keep it or go with the TJ7. The V2000 has already been modded for my H2O components.
 
AreEss said:
Samsung, ATP, Crucial, Kingston in that order.
You'll get the best timings and stability out of Samsung and ATP. ATP's harder to find retail.

Samsung I recommend the M312L5623AUS-CCC or M312L5620AUS-CCC 2GB DIMMs; the 623's are 128x8, the 620's are 256x4, both rated 3-3-3 but most will do 2.5-3-3 or better on the H8DCE.
ATP, use AB56L72Z4BFC4M or AB56L72Z4BFC4C. Also 2GB, 3-3-3.
Click to expand...

so where can the above memory be purchased at? i googled, i looked high and low? :confused:
help :(
 
Stoney said:
so where can the above memory be purchased at? i googled, i looked high and low?
Click to expand...

http://www.officialmemory.com/samsung-2048mb-128x4-pc3200-bufferedregistered-sdram-dimm-p-671.aspx
Among others. I didn't look for a better price; $410 is a good price though.

theseeker said:
Monarch has the ATP.
Click to expand...

Monarch has ATP 1GB's. The 2GBs are hard to come by. There are no resellers of the 2GB right now that I'm aware of. I order mine direct.

If you can get your hands on it, the Infineon 4GB 2.5V DIMMs are good stuff, but most folks don't want to spend over $6K on memory alone.
 
theseeker said:
Thanks, it appears everywhere I look that Samsung is recommended the most for either MB. Think I am going to go with the 254's, the Pc P&C 850 and Samsung RAM. I still havent decided between TYAN and SM for the MB, I have found pros and cons for both. I currently have a V2000 case for my sig rig and I am trying to decide wether to keep it or go with the TJ7. The V2000 has already been modded for my H2O components.
Click to expand...

I'd probably stick with the V2000. Unless you just want to change cases. Were you going to water cool your Opterons?

My $.02 if you don't need the PCI-X slots for anything, go with the Supermicro board. It's got more PCI-E slots and has additional SATA ports the Tyan board does not have. It has 8 vs. the Tyan's 4.
 
Sir-Fragalot said:
I'd probably stick with the V2000. Unless you just want to change cases. Were you going to water cool your Opterons?

My $.02 if you don't need the PCI-X slots for anything, go with the Supermicro board. It's got more PCI-E slots and has additional SATA ports the Tyan board does not have. It has 8 vs. the Tyan's 4.
Click to expand...

Yes, I am going to cool the CPU's, GPU's and both NB's. I am thinking of using the Netcell card for my SATA, so I dont care about the extra ports.
The TJ07 flips the MB so I dont have to worry about clearance between my RAD and my other cards. Thanks for the input.
 
theseeker said:
Monarch has the 2GB's as well, a little pricey.
Click to expand...

Shweet, must have added them yesterday when I wasn't looking.

Stoney said:
anything wrong with this samsung memory? it's only $105. for 1 gb stick
Click to expand...

Don't know. They don't say what part number it is. So they may be cutting and pasting the specs incorrectly; it might be the 2.6V model (which the H8DCE doesn't like as much) but it could be the 2.5V model. If it is, it's not a bad price.
 
AreEss said:
http://www.officialmemory.com/samsung-2048mb-128x4-pc3200-bufferedregistered-sdram-dimm-p-671.aspx
Among others. I didn't look for a better price; $410 is a good price though.



Monarch has ATP 1GB's. The 2GBs are hard to come by. There are no resellers of the 2GB right now that I'm aware of. I order mine direct.

If you can get your hands on it, the Infineon 4GB 2.5V DIMMs are good stuff, but most folks don't want to spend over $6K on memory alone.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the tip! I got 4x2GB Samsung from Offical Memory for $365 a stick. Great people to do business with.
 
Auto CAD, yea the HD cofig has me concerned.
Click to expand...

You mean Inventor, right?

AutoCAD is now bundled with Inventor Suite, I think. Make sure the card you buy is certified . Make sure you run Windows Server 2003 or XP64 so that Inventor can be run inside a 4GB memory space - or else the maximum is around 2.5GB under 32bit mode and you'll be wasting that 8GB of ram. Sweet system though...
 
yikess said:
Sweet system though...
Click to expand...

You should see what I build. The Talon2/SC used to be described as jawdropping. Then I brought the Talon2/XTR and Talon2/XTW to bear. To say nothing of the Aerius Volatus. (Which starts at $48,700.) To put it in perspective; the Talon2/SC can render a complete Dodge Neon and rotate it across four spanned (2x2) LCDs in realtime. The Talon2/XTW B-series can render two complete Dodge Neons and rotate both across the same display. The Aerius Volatus can render the entire factory.
Then again, I specialize heavily in CAD/CAM/CAE/CATIA/GIS workstations. So I get to toss out fun stats like that. :)
 
AreEss said:
You should see what I build. The Talon2/SC used to be described as jawdropping. Then I brought the Talon2/XTR and Talon2/XTW to bear. To say nothing of the Aerius Volatus. (Which starts at $48,700.) To put it in perspective; the Talon2/SC can render a complete Dodge Neon and rotate it across four spanned (2x2) LCDs in realtime. The Talon2/XTW B-series can render two complete Dodge Neons and rotate both across the same display. The Aerius Volatus can render the entire factory.
Then again, I specialize heavily in CAD/CAM/CAE/CATIA/GIS workstations. So I get to toss out fun stats like that. :)
Click to expand...

Maybe I should send you the Ferrari F430 to play with?
 
theseeker said:
Maybe I should send you the Ferrari F430 to play with?
Click to expand...

Oooo.. now that would be a fun thing to show off.
Oh wait, you mean a real F430? YES!!
 
I tried googling for the Talon2 and Aerius Volatus you mentioned to read more 'bout 'em and try to figure out why they cost 50k, but they have no internet presence?
 
movax said:
I tried googling for the Talon2 and Aerius Volatus you mentioned to read more 'bout 'em and try to figure out why they cost 50k, but they have no internet presence?
Click to expand...

Don't need it, don't want it. Yet. Matter of capacity.
An Aerius Volatus takes over two weeks to build. There's waiting on boards, machining, etcetera. Then the cases have to be welded, the rack module assembled, the cabling setup, etcetera. As far as the Talon2 goes, word of mouth has been driving sales just fine.

These aren't boxes designed to move 5,000 units a month, or even a year. These are very niche boxes that are intended to move very few units.You wouldn't order one of these for home. Not unless you're designing airplanes or computing Pi to the thirty-six billionth digit. (In which case I'd recommend a 8448, 8448I or Bullfrog. And a few more mortgages.) They're extremely specialized for specific tasks. Machines that do one thing, and do it better than anything else out there.

Eventually though. I'm working on expanding. Higher volume lower power boxes are coming. Once I get the next rush hell out of the way. (ARGH.)
 
AreEss said:
You wouldn't order one of these for home. Not unless you're designing airplanes or computing Pi to the thirty-six billionth digit.
Click to expand...
Whew, I only went to ten billion. Lucky me, I won't need that mortgage. :p

 
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