Need expert opinions

[Mrk121]

Hi everyone,

Kinda new to water cooling although very experienced system builder otherwise. I am looking to water cool my new system. I am running a 980X, which will be running at 4.4Ghz, as well as two EVGA GTX480 Hydro Copper FTWs. I wanted to get as close to a 2C delta as I could and was curious how many watts of heat dispersal I might needed to achieve that.

Second question. Any opinions on this?
http://www.koolance.com/water-cooling/product_info.php?product_id=1030

Oh and just a note. Don't worry about price or about the potential sound of the cooling system. The vast majority of time I wear headphones.
Thanks

 

[Tsumi]

Get the Mo-Ra 2 Pro radiator with 9 Gentle Typhoon 1850 RPM. Quiet while having massive cooling potential. If you want higher cooling, get high-speed 120x25 mm fans.

Another option is getting high FPI (fins per inch) radiators (like the HW labs GT Stealth or GTX) with fans in push-pull configuration. A good choice would be the HW Labs GTX 560 with 8 high-speed 140mm fans, like the Koolance 140mm fans. Aerocool Silver Lightning 140mm fans will also be a good choice, since they have a high static pressure. They are also more silent than the Koolance fans.

Here is a good link:
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?t=226445

For maximum cooling, but one that I find unnecessary for what you're running, is 2 4x120mm radiators (one after the CPU, and one after the GPU's) which have high FPI, and putting on high-speed Deltas. This option is about 10 times louder than the options I listed above, and is probably only going to net you a 2-3 C difference, as the above is more than adequate to cool your system to low temperatures. Of course, you can add on as many radiators and fans as you want.

Also, when you talk about delta, are you talking about delta in the water, or delta as in the core temperatures? 2 C delta core temperatures is impossible without peltier or phase-change cooling. As for water temperature delta, the first option and second options I listed will probably keep it within a 5 C delta, while the last option will probably keep it at a 1 C delta or less.

For reference:
Overclocked 980X will probably put out around 150-200 watts of thermal power.
Each GTX 480 will put out between 275 and 300 watts of thermal power.

I would avoid that koolance product because its performance does not seem to justify the price.

 

[Skull_Angel]

dual loop (seperate cpu and videocard loops);
-(2x) HWL GTX360 or GTX360(cpu)+GTX480(gpu) (not quite sure which is the better route for dual 480s with the calibur of fans I've mentioned below)
-(12x) San Ace H1011 (120x38) fans (for push+pull)
-enough shrouds for push+pull (25~30mm in height seems to be the best size range, so it's cheaper to just gut out some old case fans to use)
-fan controller(s) (almost forgot these! lol)
-enough power to run the danm things, lol

fans 'll be hell to find, but they're pretty much top of the line for high fin-density rads it seems. push+pull with full shrouds will also net higher performance gains than other configurations (though I'm not too sure of the gains you'll see with push+pull on these fans, seeing as I've only read tests on how powerful they are in push only testing and they are mighty powerful, lol).

I only suggest this setup because you mention no price or sound limits and seem to want the highest performance (though this might be a tad overkill for you... haha, it definitely would be for me).

if you want to stick to 120x25 mm fans instead of the 120x38s, I think delta has the best performing fans in that size category.

 

[Tsumi]

Lol, yeah, I forgot about shrouds. Definitely include shrouds if you go with any regular radiator.

However, you can always get more radiators and less powerful fans, and they would net out to about the same cooling performance, but for much less noise. Multiple pumps will be required though, and it really comes down to what you want to do. Simplest method is one single large radiator cooling everything in a single loop. Another simple method is having two large radiators in the loop, one after the CPU and one after the GPU's. The other method is dual-loops, one for the CPU and one for the GPU's. And I haven't seen anyone try this yet, but you might be the first: one loop for the CPU, and one loop for each of your GPU's, for a total of 3 loops. Each loop will need it's own radiator, pump, etc.

The Mo-Ra Pro 2 will allow for two loops separate loops to be connected to it. There are also plenty of reservoirs that allow for multiple loops to be connected to them, and even reservoirs that only have one output can have Y-splitters connected to them for multiple loops.

 

[Skull_Angel]

actually, I think the MCP655 can handle 2 rads+chipset+cpu or 2 rads + 2 gpus pretty easily, they aren't the quietest (not loud either), but they're tough lil'-ish suckers, lol.

I'm not too sure about the true usefulness of dual pumps on one loop though (you're basically increasing the chances of pump failure exponentially with each extra pump is one way of looking at it) . I originally though it'd be great for redundancy, but after going over a lot of reading it seems all it will really do is slightly prolong the inevitable (system should shut it's self down after reaching certain temps, this is a 100% needed precaution to set in bios when water cooling). so unless you really need the pressure or flow gains of dual pumps in one loop, it's not really worth it.

the reason you may not want to consider using multiple loops on a single reservoir is the heat exchange. you basically end up leveling out temp differences to a certain level in separate loops, which you probably don't want to do using sli 480s (around those clocks on the i7-980x you definitely want all the cooling power you can get, lol).

oops, almost forgot to add that if you're wanting to go more silent with the fans, the scythe gt ap-15 like Tsumi recommended are highly recommended (very decent static pressure for the noise level and they don't have annoying sound, it's more of a gentle hum).

 

[Olle P]

I'm not too sure about the true usefulness of dual pumps on one loop though (you're basically increasing the chances of pump failure exponentially with each extra pump is one way of looking at it) . I originally though it'd be great for redundancy, but after going over a lot of reading it seems all it will really do is slightly prolong the inevitable ...

With two identical pumps mounted in serial, as it should be, a failure of one pump will roughly halve the flow. To me that's at least a bit of "soft cushion".
Using two weaker pumps separated within the loop instead of a single loop will even out the water pressure, reducing the stress on the fittings and thereby the probability of a leak.

... the reason you may not want to consider using multiple loops on a single reservoir is the heat exchange. you basically end up leveling out temp differences to a certain level in separate loops,

I agree with that. It's much better to level out the cooling performance over the entire system, using a single loop.
Since usually the GPUs and CPU won't all be working at full load at the same time a single loop will provide maximum cooling where and when it's needed. With separate loops some cooling capacity will stay "unused" as soon as one of the components is idle.
Using a large reservoir will also help spreading the cooling capacity over time, wenting off the heat at a rate comparable to the average over a somewhat extended period (minutes) rather than the near instant value required for "air" cooling or low volume liquid solutions.

... if you're wanting to go more silent with the fans, the scythe gt ap-15 like Tsumi recommended are highly recommended (very decent static pressure for the noise level and they don't have annoying sound, it's more of a gentle hum).

Unless used in quantity together with a huge radiator they're probably too weak to provide a 2 degree temperature gradient at the expected up to 600W output (estimated 150W from the CPU and 450W combined from the two graphics cards).

Normally a "dual" radiator with (two) regular fans mounted can vent 600W at a 20C air/water gradient. (This should be sufficient not to overheat the components, but might not be enough to do the overclocking.)
Since the cooling efficiency is exponential to the gradient a rough estimate would be that two triple radiators will reach 10C at 600W, while it should take five or six such rads to reach a 5C gradient.
Add to this the thermal inertia of the cooling system and an assumption that 600W isn't the average output for any given half hour period, and that cooling might suffice to reach the target level.

 

[Skull_Angel]

I should have clarified a bit more about the scythes, but yeah if you choose to go the more silent rout you'll probably want to take a look at some different rads (most likely lower fin-density, though the difference will be minimal w/o backing down the speed on the ap-15s) and you'll end up needing a larger area (more+/-bigger radiators) like Olle pointed out.

but, in your case, the higher fin-density rads with the high performance fans are probably what you're looking for.

 

[Archmage]

I'm not sure why you're not concerned about noise - these setups can become loud when using high-FPI radiators coupled with high-RPM fans.

The higher FPI radiators begin to perform better at 1800+ RPM (120mm fans), so I'm going to recommend lower FPI-radiators, and a setup of low-moderate noise:

Dual (or Triple) 120x4 radiators: XSPC 120x4 for slightly better performance, or swiftech 120x4 for the best price (end result will be within 1C for the same noise level). You can run 3x swiftech rads - that'd be the best performing option, and yet still priced about the same as the dual XSPC option. The Mo-Ra 2 can work, but it's a high-restriction radiator = your flow rate will suffer more than it would with the equivalent area of flat-tube, higher performance style radiators.

You can also run the 140x3 radiators (Thermochill's option is good). There are fewer fan options in 140mm, but we already have some suggestions in this thread.

Run the radiators with shrouds (20-30mm spacing; or use gutted 25mm thickness fans as shrouds) on either side in push-pull.

Fans: Yate-Loons: http://www.petrastechshop.com/12yalod1cafa.html - if you feel like spending more for a quieter setup, then go with the scythe gentle typhoon ap-15 (but that'll be expensive for a large setup like this). I would put all fans on fan-controllers. The yates are great at 900-1100 RPM (not sure what voltage), and the scythe GT ap-15 fans seemingly return the best noise/performance compromise at 9-10v.

Pump(s): I'd run dual pumps in series for the extra flow (it's a big loop, but 1 pump can handle it), and for redundancy (if one fails, you're still covered). I'd run dual DDC 3.2 (aka swiftech mcp355) or 3.25 (aka koolance pmp-400) pumps using an EK dual DDC top: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/ekwaekdutopv.html or the XSPC dual-top: http://www.sidewindercomputers.com/xsduactopfor.html - If you wanted to run dual pumps, but separately at different points in the loop, then the EK X-top v2 is a good one.

Fan/pump Controller: Rheobus Extreme (6 channel) or Lamptron FC-5 (4-channel). They're both 30w per channel, so you can voltage-control 1 pump or several fans (in parallel) on each channel. Don't run DDC pumps below 9.5v.

Aquaero + powerbooster can only control 1 pump, and a ddc 3.2 pushes its limits. The bigNG is another option with mixed reviews. I prefer to use a beefy voltage-fan-controller because it's inexpensive, it works, and I don't change settings often (and even if I do... I have quiet, and normal - that's it).

And I'm going to assume you're familiar with the following recommendations somewhat:

CPU block: EK supreme HF + good thermal paste (x23-7783D, or simply mx-2. Indigo Xtreme if you feel as though you won't be remounting for a long time).
Tubing: 1/2" or 7/16" ID (inner diameter); tygon r-3400 for black tubing, and tygon b-44-4x for transparent tubing
Barbs: 1/2" ID; bitspower is nice... largest ID possible
Compression fittings: bitspower again; alternative to barbs, but tubing must be sized exactly for the compression fitting, and compression fittings are larger, so you must check for compatibility
Coolant: distilled water + silver kill-coil in reservoir
reservoir: EK, iandH, etc... all make decent multi-option reservoirs.

 

[Mrk121]

I would like to thank everyone that has responded so far. Great info for me to think about. I have not yet gotten to read all the posts in full detail (I'll be doing that at work today probably) but just a quick note. The reason I don't care about the sound is that most of the time I have headphone on at extremely high volumes (lowered hearing capacity and the only way to get the volume I need without making the entire house suffer is headphones).

Second thought, It looks like with that much radiator space I would almost have to make a custom external case to house it all beside my PC. This would be fine by me and I am pretty sure I could handle this. Is that a fair assessment of the size of this setup? I can't think of a case large enough to hold three 4X120 rads. I am currently housed inside a CM Cosmos 1000. Very spacious case but not that big!

Thanks again for the great info!

 

[Shiny]

This case should hold just about what you need:

http://www.dangerden.com/store/dd-double-wide-tower-21-black-series-edition.html

It isn't my favorite case in the world, but I usually don't need your kind of set up, either. That one will hold two 120x4 rads and another 120x3. I'm not sure it'll fit the shrouds.

As far as fans - outside of delta, I used scythe ultra kaze's with a GTX480. It was too loud for my tastes, but not so loud that the other people in the house were complaining. The combo was exceptionally effective at relatively reasonable cost. Delta's go to higher cfm, but all the ones that do are more expensive and eat up a ton of power. I'm not sure you'd see any gain from them. I think you'll hit the temps you're looking for with ultra kaze's, two 120x4's and a 120x3. I wouldn't want to be in the room with that much fan noise, but the temps should be very nice.

 

[Tsumi]

The Cosmos 1000 is a really nice case, I'm going to be modding it to fit a GT Stealth 420 (3x140mm radiator) up top.

Otherwise, custom Danger Den or MountainMods cases are your only choices if you want to fit multiple radiators without any modifications.