Need advise cooling A/V Receiver.

O

Odin75

Gawd
Joined
Mar 27, 2007
Messages
739
Hi guys.
Well, I recently got an Onkyo TX-SR606 receiver, and love it. The problem is that it runs extremely hot. The manufacturer says this is normal, but I'm not ok when my room suddenly turns into an oven, which makes me uncomfortable. Yeah, is that hot. So I want to cool it, for as cheap as possible (~$50 +/-).

My plan is to place two fans either inside the case, or on top of the receiver. Inside would be ideal, but I need to check if there is any sticker that voids the warranty. I already did the measurements, and I can fit up to 2 fan as big as 140x140x32mm. However, I prefer 120x120x25mm fans because there's more selection, higher efficiency for cheaper, and I can re-use them in the future for something else. To solve the problem of creating a loop of hot air, making the problem worse, I tho' of adding a duct in the exhaust end so the hot air wouldn't get combined with the cool air. Here's an illustration:

draft1.jpg


So far I want to just get Fan1+Fan3, even tho' someone in my family suggest I do Fan1+Fan2 configuration instead. My problem with that idea, is that I fear hot air is going to get stuck in the corner of the duct, and just create pressure there, and that's why I think Fan1+Fan3 layout is better.
Another possibility is to do a Fan1+Fan2+Fan3 configuration, where Fan2+Fan3 CFM is equal to Fan1. For example, 2x50CFM fans + 1x100CFM fan. This idea sounds great, but I'm not sure how practical it is, and is it worth all the extra money to get the extra fan? And what is your input about the previous ideas I stated?

This are the items I plan to use, for either Fan1+Fan2 or Fan1+Fan3 setups, but I also want suggestions here:
1x Plastic Fan Adapter 80mm to 120mm
1x Evercool 80mm Fan Duct
2x Scythe "SLIP STREAM" 120mm 1900 rpm Quiet Case Fan
1x SilenX Ixtrema Pro Series 4 Channel AC/DC Fan Speed Controller
_______________________________________________________________________
Total: $76.94 ($66.79 + $10.15 shipping)

So yeah, this is well beyond my budget, but I still need to check other places for prices, and consider the ideas you guys are going to give me. Also, I can perhaps run the fans from my computer, since I have a 4 channel fan controller, and 2 of them are free, but I'm having a hard time finding extension cables long enough.

Ok guys, thanks for reading, and hopefully I hear good ideas on how I can do this the cheapest ,efficient and quiet too.
 
Well, a few things, that fan is going to be loud, way to loud considering the use and in all truth over kill, you don't need that kind of air flow to cool something like that and you would be shocked at what just a small amount of air will do. Depending on the lay out (and placement of the fans) inside I would go with something like the 800RPM Slipstream or if its cramped (and your mounting the fans horizontal) something like the 1000RPM KAMA FLEX. That way no controller is needed and you can just use something like this to power them. I would also not use the 80 to 120mm adapter as they just add restriction and noise. With these choices you also drop the cost down to just $29.95 plus shipping.

And putting one 100CFM fan inline with two 50CFM fans will not work, as the two 50CFM fans together are not going to pull 100CFM but 50CFM, you will only have a higher static pressure. You also said something about it turning your room into an oven, if your goal here is to cool your room off, it's not going to happen by adding fans, because the same amount of heat is still going to be dumped into the room.
 
BlueFireIce said:
You also said something about it turning your room into an oven, if your goal here is to cool your room off, it's not going to happen by adding fans, because the same amount of heat is still going to be dumped into the room.
Click to expand...

QFT. Fans are just going to move the hot air out of the amp and into your room faster.
 
Very useful information, thanks. The reason I picked the 1900rpm fans is because they were exactly the same price on that website, and because I was planning of getting a controller, it just made sense to get the higher end model, and just lower the speed manually. However, you are correct, I'm never going to run it full speed since 37dba is a lot. That brings me to the next question:
With that DC power supply you linked, is the fan going to run at max speed because it doesn't have a controller? Is that how it works? Also, why does the description says Output 5v and 12v? Does that mean that it accepts 5v and 12v fans, or that it can change from 5v to 12v?

I ask this because I did some research, and supposedly my loudest fan, which is a Lian-Li 120mm/28dba/50CFM fan, and I'm more than fine with the noise level. If that is so, perhaps I can get a fan with more CFM, but remain under 28dba.

About about the heat and adapter. You suggest not use the adapter, or the duct all together? Because I tho' of the duct to not mix the hot air with the cold one.
And about the heat, isn't air going to get remain cold after it gets cooled, kind of how air conditioners work? They start normal with hot air, but then remain cold once the room temperature lowers. Also how my Pc works, where the exhaust feels colder than room temperature itself, despite having a 285GTX inside.
So, am I wrong in thinking this is how it works? Or maybe I'm confusing different principle?

Ok, thanks again.
 
With that DC power supply you linked, is the fan going to run at max speed because it doesn't have a controller? Is that how it works? Also, why does the description says Output 5v and 12v? Does that mean that it accepts 5v and 12v fans, or that it can change from 5v to 12v?

The PSU has both 12V and 5V pin outs, so if you changed the pins on the fan or got a adapter, you could undervolt the fan to 5V. As seen here on a Molex conector.

bf7c79ef.jpg


I ask this because I did some research, and supposedly my loudest fan, which is a Lian-Li 120mm/28dba/50CFM fan, and I'm more than fine with the noise level. If that is so, perhaps I can get a fan with more CFM, but remain under 28dba.

Whats "loud" to you is up to your ears, for me any fan over 1000RPM is to loud, IF you want the extra air flow go for it, but keep in mind the noise and air flow ratings are all lies and/or fluffed in some way, the fans I listed probably move just as much air as those Lian-Li fans but with far less noise.

About about the heat and adapter. You suggest not use the adapter, or the duct all together? Because I tho' of the duct to not mix the hot air with the cold one.
And about the heat, isn't air going to get remain cold after it gets cooled, kind of how air conditioners work? They start normal with hot air, but then remain cold once the room temperature lowers. Also how my Pc works, where the exhaust feels colder than room temperature itself, despite having a 285GTX inside.
So, am I wrong in thinking this is how it works? Or maybe I'm confusing different principle?

You can use the duct if you want, but I don't see you gaining much from it, even a small amount of air flow on the inside of the unit will help out with temps a good deal. Also, the air is not cooler, A/C works in a completely different way, go out side where the unit is and feel all the hot air coming out of it. It works the same way as your freezer works, by what is called Phase-change. If the air feels cooler coming out I would be willing to bet the PC is not under load, try running IBT or prime and do some folding at the same time and see what the air feels like then. The air only feels cool because there is not much load on the system and the air moving over your hands, so what you are most likely feeling is the effects of evaporation from moisture in your skin, which in it self is really a kind of phase transition, making the air feel cooler than it really is, like a ceiling fan on a hot day.
 
yeah i have an older onkyo and damn that thing runs hot.. i ended up taking a dremmel and cutting 2 holes in the top for 2 140mm fans.. then bought a cheap laptop cooler.. broke it apart and took the little power adapter out of them.. cut the original 4 pin molex cables off the 140mm fans.. attached the power adapter and tied both fans together and plugged them in.. its worked great so far.. holy problem now that theres air moving its causing my comcast box to overheat since its pushing all the hot air up to the comcast box..
 
The fans wont keep the room cooler, if anything probably make it hotter quicker.
 
Ogre67 said:
The fans wont keep the room cooler, if anything probably make it hotter quicker.
Click to expand...


if this was toward me.. i dont care if the rooms warmer or not.. AC runs damn near 24/7 in this house.. but even then without the fans the case was extremely hot.. now its nice as cool.. and personally i hope my comcast box dies so i can get another one..
 
Ogre67 said:
The fans wont keep the room cooler, if anything probably make it hotter quicker.
Click to expand...

Its not going to get hotter, the unit, just like a PC will hit a point of equilibrium, because the unit is still only putting out the same amount of heat, fans or not. The fans are only helping keep the box cooler by removing the heat faster (and reducing heat soak), but the amount of heat stays the same. That is unless you run into thermal runaway, but that only happens because they unit can not handle the heat, like how power MOSFETs display increase of the on-resistance with temperature. Power dissipated in this resistance causes more heating of the junction, which further increases the junction temperature, in a positive feedback loop.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Its not going to get hotter, the unit, just like a PC will hit a point of equilibrium, because the unit is still only putting out the same amount of heat, fans or not. The fans are only helping keep the box cooler by removing the heat faster (and reducing heat soak), but the amount of heat stays the same. That is unless you run into thermal runaway, but that only happens because they unit can not handle the heat, like how power MOSFETs display increase of the on-resistance with temperature. Power dissipated in this resistance causes more heating of the junction, which further increases the junction temperature, in a positive feedback loop.
Click to expand...

I was thinking it would make the overall room feel hotter faster than if it didnt have fans. Example if you take a av receiver and stick it in a closed area (or poor vent) that area will be crazy hot fairly quick up to a point, but if you use fans and move 100's of CFMs across the area quickly and keep it cool you are going to increase the temperature of the room much quicker...

This is also subject to size of room and how long the equipment will be on... In the poorly ventilated example for 30 mins or a hour its probably not going to effect the temp of the whole room very quickly... Let it run for hours its will heat up the whole room just the same if not more... In a well vented situation with fans you are going to feel the effect of the AV equipment much quicker.
 
Thanks a lot for all the input guys. Really helpful.
Since I won't be able to fix the temperature of the room, might as well cool the receiver since I have it on 24/5 days a week (I work weekends). As far as my room, I have new plans to cool it, as soon as I get more money.

Well, after lots of thinking, I think I'll do a Fan1+Fan2+Fan3 configuration. I won't buy a duct, nor an adapter, I plan to make those myself so they can be the exact shape I want them. What I do plan to get, is this things:

1x 12v DC Power Supply with Single Molex Connector
1x 4 Pin Molex PCI Bracket
3x Scythe KAZE-JYUNI "SLIP STREAM" 120mm/68.54CFM/24dba/1,200rpm Fan
___________________________________________
Total: $44.95 ($37.44 + $7.51 shipping)

That should keep me within my $50 budget. I got the splitter so I can run all the fans from the same power supply. It outputs 12v 2A, and all the fans only add up to 0.78A, so I should be ok, and still get 12v on each. Am I correct? (I'm clueless about electricity. Amps, volts, watts, ohms, joules, VA, Ac, Dc, where does the naming ends!!!):eek:

Ok guys, that's it. Anybody has any extra input or suggestions? And the things I plan to order are compatible am I correct?

Thanks.
 
Ogre67 said:
I was thinking it would make the overall room feel hotter faster than if it didnt have fans. Example if you take a av receiver and stick it in a closed area (or poor vent) that area will be crazy hot fairly quick up to a point, but if you use fans and move 100's of CFMs across the area quickly and keep it cool you are going to increase the temperature of the room much quicker...

This is also subject to size of room and how long the equipment will be on... In the poorly ventilated example for 30 mins or a hour its probably not going to effect the temp of the whole room very quickly... Let it run for hours its will heat up the whole room just the same if not more... In a well vented situation with fans you are going to feel the effect of the AV equipment much quicker.
Click to expand...

Yes and no, if I am understanding you right, the temp might get warmer faster, but the overall end temp will be the same because of the units heat output being the same.

Odin75 said:
Thanks a lot for all the input guys. Really helpful.
Since I won't be able to fix the temperature of the room, might as well cool the receiver since I have it on 24/5 days a week (I work weekends). As far as my room, I have new plans to cool it, as soon as I get more money.

Well, after lots of thinking, I think I'll do a Fan1+Fan2+Fan3 configuration. I won't buy a duct, nor an adapter, I plan to make those myself so they can be the exact shape I want them. What I do plan to get, is this things:

1x 12v DC Power Supply with Single Molex Connector
1x 4 Pin Molex PCI Bracket
3x Scythe KAZE-JYUNI "SLIP STREAM" 120mm/68.54CFM/24dba/1,200rpm Fan
___________________________________________
Total: $44.95 ($37.44 + $7.51 shipping)

That should keep me within my $50 budget. I got the splitter so I can run all the fans from the same power supply. It outputs 12v 2A, and all the fans only add up to 0.78A, so I should be ok, and still get 12v on each. Am I correct? (I'm clueless about electricity. Amps, volts, watts, ohms, joules, VA, Ac, Dc, where does the naming ends!!!):eek:

Ok guys, that's it. Anybody has any extra input or suggestions? And the things I plan to order are compatible am I correct?

Thanks.
Click to expand...

You should not need the Molex adapter, the Slipstream fans are 3 pin but come with a 3 to 4 pin Molex adapter which has both male and female ends, so you just plug both fans into their adapters and then plug the two Molex adapters into each other and then into the PSU. And yes, the PSU has more than enough power to run 2 Slipstream fans.
 
BlueFireIce said:
You should not need the Molex adapter, the Slipstream fans are 3 pin but come with a 3 to 4 pin Molex adapter which has both male and female ends, so you just plug both fans into their adapters and then plug the two Molex adapters into each other and then into the PSU. And yes, the PSU has more than enough power to run 2 Slipstream fans.
Click to expand...
How exactly is this? I mean, I think I understand what you say, one connector in top of each other just how you connect Christmas lights, but I just see this connector:
pwm-acc_400.jpg

Can you show me an example picture? I just want to feel sure since the shipping is very good when everything is together.
Also, those S-Flex fans look interesting, I saw a few videos on youtube. Very quiet fans. Problem is they're so much more expensive. Also, after reading the heat issue, more and more seems like a duct and a third fan is a mistake. Man!, decisions, decisions...

I might possibly get what you suggested originally, but with 2 fans. But I'm still interested about the connector thing.

Thanks.
 
Yes, like christmas lights, I only found one adapter, so I had to use another fan that has one built in to get the photos.

One is a male and the other is female:

d0b122b0.jpg


The two adapters:

ea7082fe.jpg


And connected, as you can see you still have a male and female connector free, you could do that until you over loaded the PSU if you wanted.

65a075d4.jpg


Also the S-FLEX are just like the KAMA FLEX, same CFM and same noise level, and both use the S-FDB bearings so they both can be mounted horizontal but the KAMA FLEX are only $9.95 or $9.50 each if you buy more than two, so not to much more than the Slipstream fans. they work better in cramped spaces because they produce more static pressure than the Slipstream fans, but if its a free flowing space you cant beat the Slipstreams, unless they are mounted horizontal. There is also the KAMA FLEX PWM fan, which just happens to be 1200RPM also but it can be had here for $7.95, it also comes with an adapter so it can be plugged into a 4 pin molex.
 
wanna keep your room cool? Get a Panny SA-BX500 (at frys for 250). I just got this thing a few days ago and I can't believe how much cooler this runs over my yamaha it's almost unfair to compare! But hey they're both receivers so... :cool: Thing weighs 11lbs and sounds incredible too, unbelievable.
 
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@BlueFireIce:
Wow, you're the man. Thanks a lot, now I understand what you meat.
About the fans, I've been doing extra research about noise, and that's when the obvious came to mind. I connected the Scythe fan (20dba/49CFM/1,200rpm) on the cpu heatsink to the fan controller, instead of the motherboard, so I could fully control it. Oh my god!, the fan is so quiet, so much that I honestly can't hear it at all, even at full blast with my ear next to it. Maybe is because right behind it is another Lian-Li fan (24.7dba/56CFM/1,500rpm) like the front one I control, but I don't control the exhaust fan because of wire management, so I connect it to the motherboard. But wow, I'm impressed to know where the noise actually comes from, those damn Lian-Li fans. I mean, my pc is very quiet, but when I tested both fans next to each other the difference is huge!

What does this all mean? That I'll go for the Slip Steam 1,200rpm model. I mean, if I can't hear 20dba, I'm sure 24dba is going to be very quiet considering the fans come from the same company. And about the extra fan and duct, I'm going to forget about that for now. I mean, If I was ducting it outside the room then sure, but if you guys claim the hot air is going to remain hot anyways, might as well save my money and see how it performs first.

Again, big thanks for all the tips.

KVW said:
wanna keep your room cool? Get a Panny SA-BX500 (at frys for 250). I just got this thing a few days ago and I can't believe how much cooler this runs over my yamaha it's almost unfair to compare! But hey they're both receivers so... :cool: Thing weighs 11lbs and sounds incredible too, unbelievable.
Click to expand...
Well, almost all onkyo receivers don't have any fans at all, only a huge heatsink inside. But that's the purpose of this mod, to fix that issue. I'm just confused why they didn't add fans to their receivers considering the price tag.
 
Haha, yes, for the money Scythe makes some really good fans, and Lian-Li is not known for making the best. I am guessing if you think they are quiet that your room/house is pretty noisy and/or you live in the city. For me, if I turn just one of my slipstream fans to max (1,200rpm) I can hear it very well. And about the sound rating, keep in mind sound levels are not linear, but logarithmic and (as a rule of thumb) every increase of 10dB the sound doubles, so 40dB sounds twice as loud as 30dB, not 1/3. And say you add 2 fans, well for every doubling of sound pressure you are going to add about 3dB.
 
BlueFireIce said:
Haha, yes, for the money Scythe makes some really good fans, and Lian-Li is not known for making the best. I am guessing if you think they are quiet that your room/house is pretty noisy and/or you live in the city. For me, if I turn just one of my slipstream fans to max (1,200rpm) I can hear it very well. And about the sound rating, keep in mind sound levels are not linear, but logarithmic and (as a rule of thumb) every increase of 10dB the sound doubles, so 40dB sounds twice as loud as 30dB, not 1/3. And say you add 2 fans, well for every doubling of sound pressure you are going to add about 3dB.
Click to expand...
Hmm, interesting, I didn't know that. I love how I think I have it all figure it out, and then you change it with a simple sentence, hehe. But hey, I enjoy learning.

About the noise, I live in Miami, Florida (US). I mean, is not as crazy as New York, but we do have a bunch of stuff here, and I live 2 blocks from a 7 (or 8?) lane intersection. You are absolutely right, it might be quiet relative to my area, but too loud for you. Anyways, I'll give those fans a try. I mean, it can't be THAT bad, the difference in the fans I tested is HUGE! I can't hear the Scythe even with my head inside the case, lol. But the Lian-Li I can hear it several feet away. From today, my definition of silent has changed, hehe. Maybe I tho' my pc was silent because everyone I know uses computers with those annoying 80mm fans that run at full blast because the inside is so dusty that running at 100% is the only way the pc knows how to stay alive.:p

Again, thanks. I'll order this stuff tonight, and definitely show some pictures once I get it all working.
 
Odin75 said:
Well, almost all onkyo receivers don't have any fans at all, only a huge heatsink inside. But that's the purpose of this mod, to fix that issue. I'm just confused why they didn't add fans to their receivers considering the price tag.
Click to expand...

They don't put fans in most mainstream AV units because alot of people are afraid they will be too noisy and it's another part that can wear out long before the unit wears out. Panny is taking a risk with this idea.

Also when I said it runs much cooler, I don't mean the components are better ventilated, I mean the unit itself simply emits far less heat than your traditional amps - one of the perks of digital amping. The receiver will not be something that adds heat to your room increasing your ambient temps where as adding fans to your current only helps cool your receivers components better but your room will still be an oven. ;)
 
Odin75 said:
the Lian-Li I can hear it several feet away. From today, my definition of silent has changed, hehe. Maybe I tho' my pc was silent because everyone I know uses computers with those annoying 80mm fans that run at full blast because the inside is so dusty that running at 100% is the only way the pc knows how to stay alive.:p
Click to expand...

See, that's where peoples ideas of "quiet" come into play, If being able to hear your PC from a few feet is ok with you, great! And yes, I do know those kind of cases, and I must admit I use to have a jumbo jet in my bedroom. I had a total of 6 fans in my case not including 2 150CFM+ Delta fans, which came in at 53.0dBA EACH...Yes, I laugh now when I think about it, I could hear it clear across my house into my kitchen, I think I have permanent hearing loss from those things. :D:p

However, now, after getting smarter and understanding it was all over kill, and setting up proper airflow and not just trying brute force, I can't even hear my PC, which sits right by my feet, so about a foot or so away. And that's just how I like it. :D

Good luck with the set up, let us know how it works out.
 
All I did was place the Onk by my fireplace where all the cold air comes in. It never feels hot to the touch anymore. Cooler is better I know but these things are built for this type of heat.
 
Hi guys, so I received the fans and the molex power supply a couple days ago, but installed them a few hours ago. Here are some pics:

Two 120x120x25mm Scythe fans, and the DC molex power supply.
items_mid.jpg

[Click for Full-Size]

Inside the Onkyo TX-SR606. Please tell me electronics aren't sexy? :p
inside_mid.jpg

[Click for Full-Size]

One fan intakes, other exhaust airs. Black ties for blending, and not damaging the case.
cover_mid.jpg

[Click for Full-Size]

Mission Accomplished! It's hidden, but cools nicely.
finish_mid.jpg

[Click for Full-Size]

There you have it guys, the project was a success. It's amazing how much cooler it is now, just WOW! It doesn't even get warm after like 5 hours from install, but maybe is because it's night time.

As far as noise, the fans are extremely quiet when outside the case. It's almost as undeniable like the Scythe fan in my Pc, I can only hear it when I put it next to my ear. When you mix 2 of them, the noise is a little bit higher, but still light-years more quiet than a single Lian-Li fan. However, when inside the receiver, you can definitely notice the noise. Maybe is the fans pushing too much air inside a constrained space, or maybe is echo building since the case doesn't have vents except the ones the fans are mounted on. I dunno, but the noise level almost doubled while inside the receiver as oppose to just on top of my bed. Anyways, the noise it produces is less than my Pc, so I normally don't hear it while there is soft music playing, I hear my Pc fans instead which can be heard with the same soft music.

So yeah guys, big thanks to everyone that helped me, specially BlueFireIce. I'm very happy with the results.:)
 
The added noise is no doubt coming from wind turbulence with those very restrictive vents in the receiver. You could reduce that noise but it would involve cutting out 120mm fan holes so the air has a nice intake and exhaust route. And you might also be getting vibrations from the case it self. In any case, glad it worked out well for you and that the unit is running cool enough for your liking.
 
A few other notes if you don't mind also. I don't know how dusty your room is but you might want to think about adding some filters, and you might want to change around the fans, move one to the "top" and the other to the "bottom" so you have some space in between the fans and not creating such a short circuit of air flow. Or you could put filters on both of them and make them both intake fans, that way you have a positive air flow and reduced dust inside. And now seeing the inside, I would have thought about adding an small (thin) fan to the HS on the back....But, that's me...overkill, I never know when to stop. :p:D
 
BlueFireIce said:
The added noise is no doubt coming from wind turbulence with those very restrictive vents in the receiver. You could reduce that noise but it would involve cutting out 120mm fan holes so the air has a nice intake and exhaust route. And you might also be getting vibrations from the case it self...
Click to expand...
Yea, air turbulence. I know it's not vibrating because the rubber ties help it, and it sounds like air pushing against something, rather than anything touching. I can't even hear the motor either.
About the holes, well, that is probably the next step, but I'll wait for the warranty to be over before I do any permanent decoration.:p

BlueFireIce said:
...I don't know how dusty your room is but you might want to think about adding some filters...And now seeing the inside, I would have thought about adding an small (thin) fan to the HS on the back....But, that's me...overkill, I never know when to stop. :p:D
Click to expand...
Well, the heatsink is actually in front. With 25mm thick fans, I can't really move it back or it will touch the board. I might just add bigger fans when I do decide to make the holes, and use those Scythe fans in my Pc, since they are amazing!

And about the dust, lol. Oh man, memories of failure fill my head. Let me just show you this picture, you can do the guessing:

fan-filter_mid.jpg

[Click here for Full-Size]

I just decided to add a filter in my room AC vent, and save some money until I can afford a separate AC for my room, or a proper air filter.
 
Lol, I can understand with the warranty...But it's never stopped me, one of the reasons I have a lapped Q9550. :D

I doubt you are going to find bigger fans that are any good. There is a large market in 120mm fans and so you have allot of good choices, there are not many good fans in the 140mm+ area. And for the fans I would have used on the HS it would have been something like a 100x12mm fan, just something for direct air flow, but with those two 1,200RPM fans you have now, it's way more than enough air flow. I would focus now on making it quieter. Once you get hooked on quiet it's hard to stop, when you get your case quiet you start hearing how loud everything else is lol.
 
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